I get the comment about players but remember we sacked the manager last year as well! people were also accusing Emery of being too defensive too. There is a pattern. Emery said after Aaron Ramsey got injured it all went to pot and I agree. The problems with creativity seemed to start there.

Btw I don’t even call those crosses they are mostly punted balls into the box when everyone is already marked.

I think it’s fiction that we’ve simply got useless players. With the midfield and attack, Top Gun pointed out the goals and assists by Willian for Chelsea last season and he’d done well there for some time. Willian is a good player, full stop. Saka was poor yesterday but might be being overplayed. He’s a tremendous prospect. Aubameyang has been useless since renewing his contract but was great before that at Arsenal (with largely the same midfielders passing to him as now) and Dortmund. A great player, hopefully in a temporary run of bad form. Lacazette has disappointed me a bit but is certainly more than decent. Pépé I think has the ingredients to be an outstanding player. Whether he becomes one or not is another question, but he has the ability required.

Ceballos has ability, and I thought improved us in the second half. He’s not great but is good, and at the end of last season was very good. Xhaka must have something despite all the negativity about him. The captain of his national team as well as Arsenal for a spell. His managers all seem to love him. Are they really all be worse judges after seeing him day in day out than some fans who only see him in matches? A more than adequate passer of the ball too. Partey has only just arrived but looks good, though playing him yesterday was obviously a poor decision. Elneny is the modern day Flamini for me. Tigerish but limited talent. Way off being rubbish, as was Flamini.

Then there’s a number of youngsters below the automatic choice level (like Saka). Maitland-Niles has already played for England so has something. Nelson, Willock, Nketiah and Smith Rowe all look around the same level to me. Useful squad players at this point and may never be more than that. But not at all bad.

I still suspect plenty of other managers could get more out of that mob than Arteta has this season. I genuinely think our squad isn’t quite as bad as is accepted by some.

If with say 10 league games to play we are still around the drop zone then he has to go. The scheduled last 10 games include five against likely relegation candidates - Sheffield, Fulham, WBA, Palace and Brighton - they will be tough - and also Liverpool and Chelsea. If Arteta hasn't found an answer before we start that that run-in we could be in big trouble. Unlike the others we are not used to relegation fights. Hopefully by May we are still in the Premiership, but cupless and out of European placings, then Arteta will need to be asked some tough questions.

Apart from the issues raised by your last point ...

It's quite subjective, so comparing results doesn't give the full picture.

A few years back South Africa had a coach called Joel Natalino Santana. He spoke no English and it was apparent that nobody, even the translators, really had a clue. Emery wasn't that bad but the vibe was similar: a sort of truculent incomprehensibility all round.

What Arteta, it just feels like he at least know what he is trying to do even if it isn't working just yet.

Liverpool, City, Man U, Chelsea and Spurs are all a given. Player for player miles better.
Leicester, Wolves and Everton all have better best 11's than us currently mainly because of such a weakness we have in central midfield

I could also cherry pick half the first 11 from each team above us that would immediately be an improvement on what we field currently
West Ham - Cresswell, Rice, Soucek, Bowen, Antonio
Southampton - vestegaard, walker-peters, Romeu, Ward-Prowse, Ings,
Everton - Digne, Keane, Coleman, Allan, Dacoure, Rodriguez, Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin
Wolves - Patricio, Coady, Boly, Semedo, Neves, Moutinho, Dendonker, Neto, Traore, Jimenez
Palace - Zaha, - ok I'm struggling here
Villa - Mings, Cash, MgGinn, Barkley, Grealish, Watkins
Newcastle - Wilson - and I'm struggling here too
Leeds - Ayling, Phillips, Klich, Raphina, Bamford

Xhaka is playing in the same 3 square metres as the 2 CBs who are as good at passing & faster than him. It’s Literally like playing with ten men in every game he plays. Even Redknapp was saying in his commentary yesterday “I don’t get this guy at all” . It’s a disaster

Ceballos is a Real Madrid reject who would be plying his trade at a low level Spanish club if we hadn’t signed him. Better than Xhaka but nowhere near the level needed.

El Nenny couldn’t convince Beskitas he was good enough for them

Worst midfield since 94. How anyone can say this lot are good enough midfielders is beyond comprehension

But ‘good enough’ is not what I said at all.

Arteta's "clear the air" talks, 4 Dec., prior to the NLD really didn't help.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fourfo ... ash-report

So if we take all the managers out of the equation and we judge each player in the prem on their ability, and we take in to account most recent form but also proven ability over the last season or two to avoid being too harsh on a player in a sudden downturn ie: Aubameyang.....where does this Arsenal squad sit in the league? And therefore how much influence is the manager having?
The big 5 are all clearly ahead of us player for player. I’d also put Leicester, Everton and wolves ahead.....but that is based on us being SO weak in a couple of key positions, literally 3/10 quality. If we addressed those areas we’d move up to 6th best squad.

So in my view Arteta should be getting this squad to at least 9th but maybe a bit higher. The only reason I’d say higher is based on our second 11 being much closer to the ability of our first 11 than some of those other clubs - so factoring in injuries we should be able to have less of a drop off in performance than others.

Player for player with the above caveats we have a better squad than Leeds and Southampton but as a team they are totally 100% in sync with their managers methods, neither manager having comprised their tactical approach to games since day 1.

Hey Rich, Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Man Utd man for man is an easy call. We starting turning the corner against sperz since 2018 or thereabouts. We beat them a couple times and drew more against them. I'd contend that sperz, Wolves, Everton and even Leicester are better managed. We have a mixed record against them as well.

If you made a combined best 11 from Arsenal, Spurs, Wolves, Everton and Leicester what would it be? This would be mine
GK - Lloris
RB - Perriera
CB - Alderweireld
CB - Coady/Boly/Gabriel - can't separate these 3
LB - Digne
DM - Ndidi
CM - Tielemans
CM - Partey
RW - Richarlison
LW - Son
FW - Kane
It may be that all those 4 other teams are better managed but they also have better players. Only Everton of the 4 finished below us last season and they bought Allan, Dacoure and Rodriguez this summer to fix their entire midfield

Good news in our relegation scrap. Brighton have just conceded a penalty and gone 1-2 down after having been ahead.

Meanwhile Southampton disappear of into the distance as they go joint 3rd. Odd times.

So we have 2 players at most. However let’s sack our manager.

If you had to pick a 2nd 11 I wonder how many players would get in?

Lloris has made many errors and more than Leno in my view. I would rather have Leno any day of the week, as I would Tierney instead of Digne. I’m surprised you put Richarlison in your team. Hopelessly inconsistent in my view. I’m not sure about Alderweireld getting in your side without question. I’m not convinced he’s any better than the three candidates for the place next to him. I think Gabriel would get in the team, with one of the others alongside him.

To be fair all the positions you queried were the hardest ones for me to pick. I think Alderweireld has been consistent over a number of years for spurs now and they have the best defence so far in the league this season. I hope Gabriel goes on to be better than all CB at those 4 clubs, signs are good but it’s only been 10 games.
Digne/Tierney would probably split a lot of neutral fans, spurs fans would undoubtedly have Reguillon as their pick.
Leno, Lloris, Patricio - I don’t think there is much between them all but Lloris still pips it for me.
I struggled a bit for a right winger, I do like Richarlison as he always looks dangerous even if his finishing let’s him down, maybe some people could make a case for Pépé or Saka but Richarlison has hit 13 league goals for the past 2 seasons, if any of our wide forwards posted numbers like that we’d be delighted

Where we stand in the table is evidence enough to tell how we are. Be it because of manager, team, certain players etc, we are in dire straits. And that is where Arteta needs to be the man to steer us back into the right direction.

Hi Rich, interesting list but different from what I was writing about. Our best XI and bench vs another club's best XI and bench, everyone healthy. Liverpool, City, Man Utd as you say, no argument there. Chelsea as well but not as strong. Head to head we were decent against Sperz, Leicester the last 2 or 3 years or so, almost as many wins as they got on us and a number of draws, which would mean they underperformed if their choice XI was visibly better.

I don't agree Wolves and Everton have a better first XI than us but that they are better managed and better run club. But appreciate your views on the matter. Interesting to think about.

So next EPL game the six pointer with another relegation candidate - Burnley

I think Pep, whose system Arteta shares would get more out of them largely on his reputation and the respect he garners. Same with Klopp. I'd also be curious if they would start Xhaka? Xhaka gets praised. Fans are scratching their heads why but he Xhaka, as an example, would likely be in the aforementioned first XI. Who would they substitute? Would Özil follow their instructions?

I agree with Bernard, our squad is relatively poor but nowhere near as bad as some would make out.

I think when you look at managers and how they have performed at their respective clubs some have produced sides who are more than the sum of the parts, some less than the some of the parts and some have more or less done what they should have done given the resources at their disposal.

Arteta is fast falling into the category of a manager whose team is less than the sum of its parts.

I agree with those saying Arteta should be getting more out of these players, but not a huge amount more, this is the same set of players who have drifted from 5th, to 6th to a very fortunate 8th in the last 3 seasons.

The most disappointing aspect of recent games is Arteta moving away from what gave cause for huge optimism last season. He displayed tactical acumen in big games to find a way to win. It could be said there was an element of fortune in some of those games with an elite striker taking his chances with an unsustainable degree of efficiency - but whilst Aubameyang has dropped the level of chances created has dropped even more alarmingly.

There are too many individuals who I don't think you can extract much more from in this squad, they have reached their level or are on the decline. Arteta needs to figure out a way of getting more from the group. For me this is one of two ways
1) go back to the 3 at the back and play games very cagey, ensuring few chances for either team and games will be nicked by 1 goal
2) pick a team based on speed, power and direct football and abandon short accurate passing in favour of high tempo, high press and less sterile possession

The second is far more risky but gives a better longer term. Either way, what we can't keep doing is play this 4-3-3 with both fullbacks bombing on and zero awareness from a slow immobile and frankly non-existant central midfield.

One of the things that unites managers who create teams of more than the sum of the parts is the dedication to discipline and 100% effort on the pitch - it is the thing that helps the underdog level the playing field. How many of our squad strike you as the sort of player who is ready and willing to do that every single minute of every single game? Of course you could argue that is Arteta's role to install that in the players, but the old phrase you can take a horse to water springs to mind.
Would I rather have Mourinho and exactly the same squad or Arteta and 4 new first 11 players. The latter for me.
Mourinho didn't inherit a squad that wasn't willing to work, it had a mental problem of collapsing and not seeing themselves as winners, but the core of the squad was always one that was ready to do the dirty work, run all day and take instruction. Perhaps only players like Aurier, Ndombele, Alli fell in to the ill disciplined category.

I agree good managers instil discipline. But along with discipline you must always be fair and appear to all the players to be fair. That is one of his failures as I pointed out yesterday with the inconsistency in his discipline. He has favourites who do not suffer similar punishment as others. This breeds devision not cohesiveness. I was amazed in the article that was posted yesterday about clearing the air, that Arteta is still trying to find out who leaked the punch up incident. This indicates to me he has devisions but it also indicated to me that he is losing perspective. I would rather he spent the time trying to work on tactics for the NLD or working with Saliba instead of being a poor copy of Inspector Morse.

It’s not though. It just isn’t mate

Our first season out of the champions league was 2017-18 that season we sold Alexis Sanchez and had sold Oxlade Chamberlain and we let cazorla go. 3 players who would make a difference. Season before last we sold Aaron Ramsey a player integral to our success and scorer of winning cup final goals. We also sold Koscielny who was a stalwart for us.

The players who were making a difference are no longer with us or in ozils case on garden leave. It’s a lie to suggest the players from that period we retained like Xhaka, Mustafi, El Nenny and Bellerin were the ones driving that success. As the more and more of our quality players left the more our positioned has worsened over the last few years leaving us with the dross that existed before. The fact is most of the best players we have now are the ones that have been signed subsequently not the ones we are stuck with.

We need to stop revising history to fit a narrative

I'm not sure which corner you're fighting here, are you in the players are rubbish or Arteta is rubbish camp? I'm in the 'The players are rubbish and the biggest problem, but Arteta should be doing better but not top 4 better" camp
What I'm saying is the team has finished 5th, 6th, 5th and 8th in the last 4 seasons. (edit from my mistake above) You've added that in each of those seasons we have lost players who make a difference to the team and not sufficiently replaced them. So if we agree the squad of players is getting progressively worse over the last 4 years and even at their best the squad wasn't capable of finishing top 4 then it must be that the players aren't good enough right now as the primary reason rather than the manager must go.
I feel like we've been on the same page for this but your last post left me a bit confused.

There are a lot of players in the current squad who have been with the club for at least 2/3 seasons and haven't got in to the top 4 in any of them, leno, bellerin, Mustafi, Sokratis, chambers, lacazette, aubameyang, kolasinac, Xhaka, Holding, Elneny, Özil and a number of the academy players. I'm certainly not saying ditch that long list of players but there are still a significant amount that are not good enough for a top 4 team, and we've added players to that who are also not good enough for a top 4 team in the last 3 transfer windows.

I'm with Top Gun. The players are below the standard we need. The only thing that gives me hope is that our last two signings, Gabriel and Partey ARE good enough. Let's see what we do in this window. Arteta is not blameless by any stretch of the imagination, but at the moment he's trying to get a tune from a broken ukelele.

I believe some of the players are rubbish but Arteta is probably too rigid in his system. He’s also making some minor mistakes like not using AMN.

However our decline has been gradual over the last few years. Aaron Ramsey has been a massive loss for the club, wasn't replaced and Emery believed it caused him to get fired. Ramsey and Koscielny were big losses in 2019. Many more players before that. You can’t simply let go of all your talent and blame the new manager for not getting the same results with the dross that’s left. Aubameyang can only get us out of jail so many times and if he was going to hit a dry streak like he has then we were always going to get in trouble.

The simple reason why we are in the *%^@ right now is we have let our best players leave and not replaced them adequately. That’s it, it’s not much more than that.

Our approach to transfers, contracts and recruitment policy has been crazy.

Micro analysis of any other problems on the pitch or coaching is pointless right now.

... at the moment, certainly. I also don't buy that our players are hopeless. Sorting out our midfield is the trick.

Has Arteta been too rigid? He's played a 3-4-3, a 4-3-3 and a 4-2-2. His 4-3-3 has had variations with a true 10 or 3 flat midfielders. Aubameyang wide left and central. Willian as a false 9, Lacazette as a 10. Willock as a 10. Ceballos at right back!
This isn't to defend Arteta, if anything it feels like he's tinkered too much whilst also staying too loyal to certain players, he hasn't found a system which balances everything we need from the players we have.

Even with everyone fit there are probably 2 big holes in the midfield in Arteta's preferred 4-3-3. Someone to sit and hold or someone to go box-to-box if Partey holds, and a creative No.8. Once you fix that then you can look at the right sided centre half as none of the current multitude of options are good enough. The one area of the pitch where it feels the talent is at least there is in the front 3 positions, this is where Arteta needs to work better. How can he get the ball to them quicker? If the current team can't do it then sign someone who can. Then work on our strikers - for my money we've collected a group of forwards who are quite similar, they all are at their best being on the end of things, Aubameyang, Lacazette, Nketiah, Pépé - none of them have playmaker traits like other teams have in their front 3 positions. Even Willian and Nelson - albeit different than the 4 above- feel more like natural wide men rather than a Rosicky/Pires/Nasri type wide man who will come inside and link up and create

Might have a point

Xhaka is playing behind the centre backs at the moment
Any further back and he would in the stands.

Ceballos has revolutionised football by creating a deputy right back position where he just chases Bellerin round the pitch by running into the same space.

Martinelli playing for the U21s tonight

The Ceballos and Xhaka average positioning is very strange. A 1-5-1-3 formation? with Xhaka behind the CB's and 2 right backs

With everyone fit I'd like to see a front 6 set up as
..........Partey........
.......AMN - Saka.......
Pépé - Aubameyang - Martinelli

Parety holding the fort, AMN and Saka as to No.8's going forward. Bags of pace and excitement in that team.

Alan Davies nailed this on the Tuesday club the other week. Said it’s basically cowardice because they aren’t technically good enough so it’s easy to go hiding and look busy around the halfway line and “energetic” whilst ultimately not doing much. Ceballos in particular is strange as he was billed as an attacking midfielder when he joined yet in some games he absolutely will not get into the final third let alone Near the box.

But we have bought promising players: Partey, Pépé, Gabriel, for instance, and we've had couple of players graduate to the first team (counting ANM in that group), and one or two others on the fringes, epsecially the likes of Martinelli.

Clearly it is too early to tell whether we have 'replaced' the likes of ramsey, kos and sanchez. But I don't agree that things are as hopeless on the squad front as your analysis suggests.

Puzzling

I agree we have some good players in defence and up front but the midfield IS hopeless there is no question and it’s killing us,

Excluding the recent signing who is injured willock, Xhaka, ceballos and El Nenny compared to the departed cazorla, Özil, Ramsey, Chamberlain ?

It’s not even a comparison. We have lost all our quality in the middle of the pitch and with no engine the car won’t move.

Most would agree we are only one defender from a good back line. Gabriel needs a good partner. Saliba is expected to be that partner.

We are only one midfielder away from a good central midfield. Partey needs the right partner. We are supposed to be set at the wings (Pépé and Willian).

We might be one forward from a front line, Aubameyang being the sole one deemed good enough.

throw in Saka playing where ever deemed best. AMN. Martinelli coming back.

What am I missing?

Fact is we are sixth from bottom of the league with a woeful scoring record. Were we ever that low and goalshy under Emery? I honestly can't recall, but surely the manager must take some of the responsibility for the fall from relative riches of 8th last season? The much criticised late days of Arsene now feel almost Chapmaneque in comparison. A couple of wins will really help change the mood.