I really can’t see how anyone can judge him too much. I admit I’m shaking my head a little bit as I don’t really get what he’s trying to do with our team. There seems no fixed formation, team and defence changes most games. The Aubameyang wide thing just seems crazy to me.

All that said he must go into work every day and watch players in training thinking “you shouldn’t be at this football club” . There’s less talent in this squad than any arsenal squad in my lifetime. Changing the manager again won’t alter that.

You can apply that second line to a number of players in that squad DHD

I honestly think Arteta is the very least of our problems. We have some bang average players and a dreadful structure above Arteta. As you say, if we can flog Guendouzi and Laczette and rebuild our midfield, that would be a huge improvment. Read earlier that Liverpool have built their side with players from Soton, Charlton, Hull etc. Just decent aquisitions rather than names.

Guendouzi has, at times, shown a very high potential but has undoubtedly lost form and is playing in an average side. If he wants to go then there is little point in holding on to an unhappy player. I imagine he'll be a vital part of the French national side in the next decade though.

One area where I think Arteta has a major problem is with the recruitment.

It’s all very well modelling yourselves on the European game where chief scouts and directors handle transfers and managers aren’t involved. However fast forward a bit and you have sacked your head scout who seemed to be making good decisions, all your players are from the agents who are mates of the directors

Arteta needs to be given the power to veto transfers otherwise we’ll be screwed.

Also make my words I bet we end up getting Willian from Chelsea. A player who looks great one week invisible the next. We have become the retirement home Tottenham used to when players like poyet and gallas would go for r one last contract

I agree, we’re becoming a retirement home for ex-Chelsea players. Wouldn’t surprise me if one of their sales pitch they used on Werner to sign him was words to the effect of:

“If you stay until you’re in your thirties, don’t worry about us wanting to get rid of you then. For former players we have found a really comfortable Darby and Joan Club just a few miles away called Arsenal FC. You can go there to sit out your playing days on good money without having to do anything.”

Fine Bernard. But that doesn’t really stack up with your offensive and unwarranted rant against him last night, and I quote....


Hope the b****** Arteta gets sacked before too long.

On the basis that you could potentially buy Partey and Pellegrini with their buy out clauses for a combined £70m I would sell both Guendouzi and Lacazette for £40m each.

Torreira seems to want to head back to Italy, we should get at least our money back for him. which should be put towards a creative No.8 style player (Kocku the turk was the one rumoured to be high on our wishlist for £20-25m
Xhaka, Partey, Pellegrini, Saka, Kocku, Willock starts to look like a more serious midfield

I was in a bad mood about him blaming Guendouzi for the Brighton defeat, assuming he did. Was a long way from being our worst player and at least he showed what little fight or anger we had. Thinking rationally about it, of course Arteta should have more time though. But if he does sell the underrated (by some) Guendouzi, I’ll hope the b****** does gets sacked.

Keown wasn’t speaking highly of Arteta today. Not for that, but for giving Luiz a new contract. Said words to the effect that the tide could be turning against Arteta.

This is my point Rich. The time people waste talking about buying and selling players stuns me. Until Kroenke sells the club, it’s as close to a meaningless waste of time as I can think of. About as useful as talking about, as I’ve said, debating whether to use mild or mature cheddar for cheese on toast.

Less useful in my view, as I agree with you that mature with Worcestershire sauce is a good option.

None of that makes him a b****** though. It really doesn’t.

I’m surprised that you eat cheese. Don’t you have an aversion to yellow food? Or am I mis-remembering?

I don’t really buy that Bernard. You’ve over exaggerated this at the least. Financially Arteta will get backing that clubs finishing above us won’t get. I think we can bank on that. So what’s the real issue? What apart from that does an owner really contribute. I don’t think FSG identified Mané, Alisson, Van Dyke, Salah which is the reason Liverpool have just won the title. The majority of players in this side have serious shortcomings to being title contenders. That’s a personnel issue as well as any other problems which yes, Kreonke could be a part of. Kreonke’s ownership is a limiting factor for a few things, but not to identifying and coaching players. We’re on course to finish about what 7th- 14th? With more sensible coaching, Arteta finding his feet in the squad, some good signings this club with the same owner could clearly finish much higher. Kreonke is keeping the self sustaining model but it’s that along with terrible management from the end of Wenger through Emery that’s rhe problem not Kreonke’s owenership. Liverpool hit expensive lightning in a bottle several times over, and that won’t last. It statistically cannot, over time it’s wealth that matters for football success at the very top and that places us about 5th. Everything else is team building and coaching. Liverpool got a great coach and hit several jackpots in a row recruitment wise. I don’t think they’re a shoe-in for the title next season because City will come out fighting chequebooks a blazin’.

We’re self sustaining club like 90% of the rest of the league. That’s what we have to work with, City are about to be banned from the ECL for financial fraud basically, hardly an incentive for any owner to pump in money above club turnover.

You are misremembering. I’ve never had anything against yellow foods and have always enjoyed cheese, albeit some types more than others. I don’t eat a lot of bananas but when I do, quite enjoy them.

I wonder if you’re confusing my dislike of yellow as a colour with a dislike of yellow foods. I prefer Arsenal to play in different coloured away shirts. I wouldn’t buy a yellow car although I did have one when I first passed my test when I was at school. But I was given that by my dad, so I was never going to moan about its colour. But any yellow foods are fine.

Bernard, as a staunch defender of Guendouzi let me pose a hypothetical question (not a trick or loaded question) if Guendouzi got to having 2 years left on his deal (I can’t recall if that is this summer or next summer) and he had shown no intention of agreeing or discussing a new deal would you sell him?
I suppose that goes for any player? This is the line that Arsenal’s hierarchy took but already haven’t adhered to.

It’s a genuine question because a lot can happen in 2 years that may change a players mind on a new contract but the less time they have left on their deal the riskier game of brinksmanship the club play.

Sometimes there is more to a deal than is immediately apparent. Despite the free use of the word Luiz is not a clown. He has played for Benfica, Chelsea and PSG, and over fifty times for Brazil. He has won more trophies than anybody currently on our books. Perhaps his additional year is more for his experience and potential to help settle in any young guys who may come in from Brazil, Spain or Portugal? Yes he is past his best, but he comes across as a decent professional.

Sorry Rich, but I think you’re basing this idea that signing loads of good players will transform the team on hope. Personally I think under Kroenke there has been an acceptance of mediocrity developing. Leadership will come from the top, and we have an owner who isn’t particularly interested in Arsenal winning things. If Arsenal reach the FA Cup final my guess is he’d feel obliged to come over for the game and would rather us win than lose. But if we lost, how disappointed would he be? Not much in my view. He’d probably sit through the game thinking ‘God, I wish I was doing something else’.

All this faith you have that new players will improve us. Sorry, I just don’t buy it. Pépé is highly talented but has mostly looked lost with us. Torreira initially looked like the defensive midfielder we’ve been missing for ages. Like you said earlier, he’s now keen on getting out. Guendouzi looked a great prospect at first. That promise was drummed out of him pretty quickly. What a finding Bellerin first looked. How about now? Holding is a worse player now than when he first joined. One may use injury as excuses for the last two, and maybe that is part of the equation. But I don’t think it’s necessarily the whole reason. There are others too. How about Lacazette?

We make players decline. When were the last signings who unarguably improved after joining us? Leno has. Aubameyang was fantastic at Dortmund so I’m not convinced he has. Giroud and Monreal both did yet they signed yonks ago. Saka has made a great start. Let’s see what happens to his form if he does extend his contract. I’m not discounting the possibility it’ll be similar to what’s happened with Guendouzi.

Where I disagree with the accepted view on here is that we’re jam packed with bad players. I reckon we’re more than capable of putting out good teams with the players we have. Perhaps it’s down to Arteta, and Emery before him. But are they both useless? I doubt it. Look at the job Emery did at Seville and the contribution Arteta allegedly made at City.

I think the atmosphere from the top, and the ‘not bothered’ philosophy of the owner can only seep through to the staff below him, and from them to the players. Kroenke has said he didn’t buy Arsenal to win things and that lack of ambition can only permeate throughout the club, in my opinion. I think Arsenal’s ‘reason for being’ is fast becoming an unambitious acceptance for being ordinary also rans.

I understand why people may want to hope that isn’t the case. I do as I’m a lifelong fan. But I don’t want to kid myself, and that’s why I see this ‘it would be great if we signed so and so because he is brilliant’ and ‘it would be terrific if we sold whoever as he is rubbish’ as little more than a form of self comfort. I’ll repeat myself again. Had Liverpool’s owners at some sort of social gathering last summer with the people running Arsenal had all got pissed out of their minds and agreed a straight swap of every single player in the squad for all the players in our squad, I just don’t believe we’d had won the league. I suspect the atmosphere at Arsenal would have made the Liverpool players perform worse with us than they have. I know I can’t prove it, but it is honestly what I believe. For me the foundation of the club has been undermined. Built on damp sand.

I think you raise a decent point. I was just mentioning what Keown was saying.

I would let any player get down to one year. It then depends more on what they might be worth. However promising Saka is, he is not worth anything like Aubameyang. Hence if Aubameyang doesn’t renew I’d sell. Saka? I’d want to see what clubs would be willing to pay, but I’d be more inclined to keep him. Same goes for Guendouzi.

The exception might have to be those nearing the end of their career or who we can’t get rid of. Like Özil. So I’d probably look on each case individually on its merits rather than a hard and fast rule that every player, whoever they are and whatever they’re worth, must be sold one year prior to the end of their contract.

Hi Bernard, i would agree with you that fundamentally Arsenal have to change right at the top to consider any serious improvement and future challenging for major honours. But, if I start and stop at that point in my support of Arsenal there is very little else to talk about, or post about on this forum for me!
Football fundamentally is the hope of the next high, the next win. Arsenal more than any club seem to do their best to drain any of that hope out of their fans and I’ve certainly taken more time away from following Arsenal in the last few years - but I still enjoy the games, the hope and I still enjoy looking at the players, the play, the tactics and looking at the good and the bad and thinking how we can improve even if the real way to improve to where we want the team to be is moving on an immovable object!

There was a moment in the saints game where Tierney got the ball in the left back position, saints pressing and a high defensive line and both Aubameyang and Nketiah arced and made runs in to the 40 yards of space, Tierney curled a wonderful long 70 yard pass over the top of the defence and in to the path of one of the quickest strikers in the league who had already got 15 yards on the defender. Ultimately Aubameyang hit the bar but it was so simple and something I wish we’d do more. Easiest way to avoid a high press and turnover in your own half, fire it long over their defence. Even if it doesn’t always lead to a chance it keeps the opponent on their toes and suddenly the press might not be as fierce and the defensive line just drops a few yards. Now you have more space to play

Ash, let's hope that Kroenke doesn't turn out to be another Hicks and Gillett. The drival that came out of the mouths of those two when they took over Liverpool is not too far off from Josh K's "be exicited" And whatever else he and Stan announce in relation to any Arsenal amenities, etc. What I'm seeing is a gradual deterioration mirroring the mess of the Hicks-Gillett years. Those two spewed a lot of happy days are here bollox till hard legal action got them out and Fenway Sports took over for $300M. This may not turn out the same for Arsenal, but it's too close on parallel of the situation going on now.

Hi Rich. I agree. I think one of the things people are grasping at is the hope that new players will change things. That’s fundamentally the point I’ve been making. I’ve also said that talking about what signings they’d like to see is what fans do, of all clubs in all areas of all sizes. That’s why I accept it’s inevitably going to happen here, and other forums.

So I think we basically agree, especially if you think what needs changing the most is Kroenke’s ownership.

One other thing. If we manage to sign Partey this summer, my guess is this. He’d start very well before ending up disappointing many following his strong start. I think that’s what happened with Torreira, to be honest. I hope Partey would be better and develop positively. But if it happens I’ll be pleasantly surprised.

Apologies to Rich and Ash. With my longer post previously it was Ash I was firstly replying to. Zed, thanks as it was your reply to Ash that made me realise it.

If I was Guendouzi I would want to move to a serious football club, one with big ambitions and not one that just goes through the motions as we do.

Same goes for Aubameyang.

Couldn’t agree more socrates.

No worries Bernard I saw your correction before the reply so I knew what was what. I think you can swing it either way. Once I get going on what’s bad at the club you start getting momentum and we’ll never win a game of any real significance ever again as we’re just being left behind, but when you start to list the positives and what could be, after one win it all feels quite different. I think the thing is the bad is here and the good isn’t.

I think things can get better than they are and Kreonke isn’t going to stop that, but I do think as you say he lacks the real desire for success to impose that helpfully on the club for us to be actual challengers again. I think there’s a crater to fill and I don’t know how we’re going to do it. As players like Saka leaving, which looks to be pretty likely at this point, just digs us further in. You look at how many millions Utd threw at the problem and how long it’s taken them to just get where they are now which is questionable to say the least.

I think there’s more than one owner model to be successful, I’m not saying Kreonke’s is that, but he’s hardly a destructive force at the club, he’s just absent.

I’m sure this will cheer you up then
“Manchester United join race to sign Arsenal misfit Matteo Guendouzi”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... douzi.html

Watching the showering of praise, quite rightly, Klopp is getting right now for turning Liverpool in to European champions and title winners has me thinking back to when wenger came and did the same for us.
The transfers, the vision, buying in to the culture, that connection with the fans, galvanising everyone to pull in the same direction, the humility, the passion, the style and swagger of the team. Makes it quite nostalgic to when wenger first arrived.
Of all of that listed above I think the greatest thing Klopp did was instill that togetherness and belief. He immediately understood what it meant to be Liverpudlian and/or a Liverpool fan. He tapped in to it and stirred the emotion.
He has done a fantastic job there. Yes he added the final pieces to the jigsaw with some expensive proven signings but the way he’s taken players and developed his system that they follow religiously has been impressive.

Please no, as if this year hasn’t been bad enough. I hate Liverpool and they’re the least hateable winners for a decade. it’s just inconsiderate is what it is.

If I can ignore all the adulation I might just survive the week.

Agree. And if I was his agent I would be agitating for him to move. Even to a team who may be in the CL next season even if they are just to hope for a round 16 performance. That was once us.

Watch out they will want to give us another of their long line of very poor players we have never got anything from

Interesting to note the clubs they say are after Guendouzi: Manchester United, Barcelona, PSG and Inter Milan. What a bunch of minnows. No hopers little better than Barnet, Wycombe Wanderers, Halifax Town and Darlington. Shows what a rubbish player he must be.

Guendozi: Clearly talented, lots of stamina, very comfortable on the ball, plays football with an attitude and spirit which is something that has often been missing from our players, very young with the potential to get even better. On the downside, he isn't quick, he cant head the ball, he appears to be a bit positionally undisciplined, and he is hot headed and annoying. Also, one journalist said its not uncommon for him to fall out with his coaches.
Personally, I would persist with him until the point where its clear its not going to work out, but if he wants to go then he leaves on our terms, meaning a whopping transfer fee. He may be simply be a poor fit for Arsenal at the moment.

Yes - This a great doco - Thanx !

Absolutely no chance he’s going to Barcelona or United. Simply not happening. Not on your nelly they wouldn’t touch him with a barge pole

Might be able to sell him to a French club if they don’t do their due diligence

I remember something about him not liking bananas because they are yellow, despite the fact that the part of the banana that one actually eats is whitish, but he does like Bananarama. All very odd.

My memory must also be playing tricks on me.

I would agree with you: yellow isn't a good colour on cars or male clothing. Tacky.

When you dislike a player, you start talking utter cobblers. I certainly think it’s feasible United and Barcelona might want him if their scouts have better memories than you.