I wouldn’t argue with you point Tom. He froze out Williams too. But whatever the reason the four I mentioned became our midfield and in my view they were worse than the current mob, collectively and individually.

You think they bring passing and creativity ? Really that’s nonsense Bernard

Whats the stat ? 4 assists and 1 goal for our 3 main midfielders this season? That’s appalling.

I just don’t think they are as good as you or many others think. Really I don’t.

Özil isn’t Özil anymore
Xhaka is still Xhaka that’s the problem
Ceballos is an odd one, a decent start but he seems something of a headless chicken
Guendouzi only plays well in cup games
Then you Have the hardworking Torreira and a couple of youngsters

Özil and Ceballos should bring passing and creativity. That is not nonsense. Xhaka can pass too.

1 goal and 4 assists. They can’t

Games are won and lost in midfield.

And I wouldn't argue with yours either Bern! You can throw Jimmy Carter and McGoldrick in the mix too. They were getting games ahead of Limpar. I seem to remember being at Highbury and seeing us take on the then all conquering Man Utd with a midfield 4 of Carter, Selley, Morrow, McGoldrick. I think we got a draw out of it too, amazingly.

Surely we have to giver Arteta a bit longer than 6 weeks to judge what kind of job he's doing, good or bad?

George was hysterical with Anders Limpar.

I attended that game at the dell where Limpar set up all 4 goals with Wright getting 3 and Campbell getting one.

One was an exquisite chip for wright to volley home if i recall. A real beauty.

Next game. DROPPED

Limpar was one of the most under rated players in football I think. Outside of arsenal and Everton he never seemed to get many plaudits. He was superb

Ceballos and Özil are creative midfielders. That is what they are. They should be doing more. The point that they’re not is, I suspect, mainly a negative reflection on them. But the central midfield looks on paper a well balanced outfit. That it’s not performing as it should is presumably a reflection on the players or coach.

I would agree with that, and have posted the same before. It is too early to make one’s mind up about him, one way or the other, positive or negative. But we have a decent group of midfielders, at least on paper. If they’re not performing, at this point I’m willing to lay the primary blame on the players. Yet there will come a point when it may be legitimate to ask questions of Arteta too? He picks them, he coaches them, he tells them how he wants them to play, or at least should do.

Not sure if the press is making more than necessary of Mbappe touchline flare up about being substituted. I remember years ago an English player exchanging words about being substituted and the then manager said he hopes players don't want to be substituted. He took it in stride, didn't make more of it than it was. Players are hungry for minutes on the pitch. If it happens consistently then okay, but this incident by itself doesn't seem to be a big deal in the scope of things.

Again can't argue with that. Hopefully Arteta is getting into them during this training camp in Dubai. Ceballos has got to be worth a run now he is fit again. He could provide the creative spark we need.

It really isnt

You can pick any 2 from Xhaka, Torreira and Guendouzi and it doesn’t work. The speed of distribution and control and just isn’t there with any combination of those 3.

We’re 10th,

We we’ve only scored 32 goals in 25 games. So nevermind scoring 3 were struggling to score 2 in most games.

Our midfield is at the heart of the failure yet people are harping on about the defence all the time.

I see Brentford is 5th in the Championship and hoping they get promoted. I was introduced to them on this forum by Hodd so I have a soft spot for them.
Only 6 points from the top.

Talk to Xhaka all you want won’t make a blind bit of difference, too slow, doesn’t read the game, can’t smell danger.... above all else he’s just a wee bit dim. Guendouzi is young and comes from the french lower division, prepared to give him a pass for now. Özil has all but retired. Torreira is too lightweight.

I agree with that. George went a bit mad after Benfica hammered us which culminated a few years later with that atrocious midfield. I'm no fan of Xhaka but he's far better than any of that 4.

In fairness to Arteta, he has improved the defence. I think the midfield is the bigger issue also. As you say, Özil is finished and without Ramsey (who was consistently derided) we have no threat from midfield. Pépé needs to up his game. It is still early in his Arsenal career, and feck knows what Emery was doing with him, but he needs to start delivering.

I’m not saying he’s a world beater but Xhaka isn’t as bad as some make out. I agree Özil is just sitting out his contract for £350k a week, but with him and Ceballos we should have some creativity even with the former’s attitude. They and Xhaka mean we have passing ability in midfield.

We have a ball winner in Torreira even though I agree he does seem a bit lightweight. Guendouzi and Willock give us energy and work rate. Along with AMN there should be a balanced and decent midfield in there somewhere and to claim it’s worse than Hillier, Selley, Jensen and Morrow is ridiculous (and I know it wasn’t you who said that).

On paper it is not as bad a midfield made up by simply poor players as some want to make out. They are underperforming. At present I primarily blame the players. But players are coachable, they can be organised, they can be advised, they are routinely capable of receiving explanations on what to do in games. Whatever their level of intelligence, and from hearing Xhaka speak I have no reason to see him as intellectually dim.

If AW ever gets around to writing his book that is. Whether or not any Board suggestion was even made to Arteta, let alone from the Kroenke's has to be seen as just a suggestion. Just because Arteta played for Wenger certainly isn't an automatic indication it will happen obviously. Yet, it would be an interference move with what Arteta's strategies and team building he's trying to establish. My opinion. But, over at MU, Fergie's input to OGS most likely happens on occasion. Therefore Arteta may or may not have in passing suggested it. You'd have to be a fly on the wall to really know anyway.

Spot on here

To say Xhaka is underperforming is a joke.

He’s underperformed for 3 different managers and in over 100 games eh. Comparing him to selley who only played about half that amount of games is nonsense.

The thing is though Bernard that wasn’t the midfield. They were bit part players. El Nenny has played more times for arsenal than Ian selley. We had Davis, merse and parlour around that time too look at the picture of the winning Copenhagen side. Your still talking about individuals rather output of the midfield.

Name me a manager who doesn’t rate him then? They all seem to love him, and Arteta shows no sign of thinking any differently. Do you reckon they know less about him than you? Look, I’m not a fan of Xhaka and won’t be bothered if he leaves. But he’s nowhere near as bad as you pretend.

Selley played 60 games. Can I also remind you were saying our current midfield was the worst you’ve seen. There have been worse overall midfields like Hillier, Selley, Jensen and Morrow. Elneny played some more games than Selley but I wouldn’t put him in the collective of the worst midfield. I think Elneny was significantly better than Selley anyway.

Our current midfield is the worst in my arsenal supporting lifetime

What you are saying is that our midfield at that time which contained Paul Davis, a young parlour and Merson and only a few months later Stefan Schwarz is worse than our current one which clearly isn’t the case.

Name me a manager who doesn’t rate him then? [quote]

I don’t believe they rate him they are stuck with him and make due and put up a facade*





*Also applies to Mustafi and Özil

Hillier played 143 games, Selley played 60, Jensen played 138 games and Morrow played 85 games. Sadly, enough in the same midfield to see them as our worst midfield. Our present one simply doesn’t compare.

Okay, so you don’t think any of Xhaka’s managers rate him despite some buying him, regularly picking him, and even at least two making him captain. Yeah right.

But they didn’t always play together. That’s the point. How many games did we play that 4 together. I bet it was less than 4 matches.

I said it’s the output of the midfield your picking individuals. We also had merse, Davis and parlour and that year we also played Campbell wide right

I reckon any decent offer would get accepted yes.

Oh and the captain thing is nonsense as the cleaner gets offered the captaincy these days.

He’s *%^@ and Arteta knows he’s *%^@

He’s come from city where they had De Bruyne and silva tearing teams apart. Believe me he knows Xhaka ain’t up to it. (Which he clearly *%^@*** isn’t )

I bet it was a lot more than four. Feel free to do the research on your guesswork. If you do I’ll show the respect to check it.

Actually I bet it’s less.

In the European final only 2 played and that was because Jensen was suspended

Many players captain clubs in one off games. But Xhaka is the captain of his national side and has been made Arsenal’s club captain. You watch him and he shows leadership qualities.

Everything Arteta has said suggests he rates him, whatever you want to think. Like all his other managers. Arteta knows we don’t have De Bruyne and Silva so him coming from there seems irrelevant to me.

It’s an act. Do you also think he rates Mustafi ? He plays him too.

They have to endure these legacy problems.

Xhakas competition is a young kid from the French second division and we have no money. The moment a decent offer comes in he’s gone.

There’s reasons Sheffield United are above us in the league. Parkerknoll is right

Go and prove it then. Look the teams up for individual games because looking at the totals they all played while at the club around the same time suggests you’re hopelessly wrong. If you do I’ll show the respect of checking your figures.

How much spare time do you think I have.

I know I’m right though. They are also 4 central players. Didn’t happen. Make believe on your part

Hi Bernard,

I would hope that Arteta does not rate him as anything more than an average PL midfielder, because realistically that's all he is. His lack of mobility around the pitch coupled with his inability to tackle cleanly, without pulling the man back or tripping him, means he will never sit at the top table of PL midfielders in my opinion. The fact that Arteta picks him every week is more a reflection of the inadequacies of the rest of our midfielders, I would suggest, than any huge endorsement of Xhaka's qualities.

If we could get back anything like what we paid for him I'd sell him in a heartbeat.

I don’t think it is an act. I presume Arteta doesn’t see Xhaka as a world beater and would be happy to see him sold for a good price. But he appears to rate him and I don’t think it’s remotely guaranteed he’ll be sold, even though I personally hope he is. Mustafi is prone to bad errors but I have little doubt Arteta would see your views on him as ridiculous.

Well you have enough time to post bollocks on this forum. I bet they did play together more often than you. If you can’t prove it, don’t claim it.

4 central midfielders in a row. This is your fantasy. This is entirely inside your head. Your mind is creating an alternate reality you live in.

I wouldn’t argue with your moderate criticism of Xhaka socrates. I’d be happy to see him sold for a good price, as I’ve said repeatedly. My point is Top Gun goes ludicrously over the top about how bad he is. Worse than Hillier? For Christ’s sake that’s stupid. Xhaka’s quite slow, makes silly tackles (but at least makes tackles), but does pass the ball well and quite intelligently, and shows leadership qualities. Not a play who will win you the league, although he played well in a cup final we won. But not as bad as Top Gun pretends.

Morrow often played wider. Stop being stupid. Anyway, George’s team selections were often crazy over that period.