Musing about Messi's records, greatest player ever, tra ra. But I wonder if he would have ever been that if he had played in the PL. La liga is totally dominated by 2 teams with the money equally skewed so I don't understand how a great player, surrounded by some of the best in the world, state funded and playing against weak opposition every week can be unreservedly defined as the best.

Thing that reminded me was the Aguero Henry debate bubbling up. For me it indisputable that Henry was a far better footballer than Aguero. That not even considering the Man City resources to put the team around him.

I can see that Bern and it was indeed horrible to see Brady go, but his departure was signalled from a fair way off and he went to Italy, which was pretty exotic in those days and in some senses, reflected well on The Arse. Charlie George's departure seemed to happen overnight - and to bleeding Derby???

The essential difference though was that Charlie was a proper North London boy. He was a face. A geezer in today's parlance. He was out there frequenting the same venues as we all did in the crowd. You'd see him at places. You'd see him on the night bus - yes, really! And he was tasty, as they'd say. He could handle himself and along with his mates, he wasn't a stranger to 'confrontations'. He was the idol of the North Bank, and not just for his skills and his goals.

I don’t believe you’re a liar in any way, shape or form. Just hopelessly wrong about Mancini. In the season before he joined, 1973/74, we finished 10th without him. Then Mancini joined in 1974 and in his first with us, 1974/75, we finished 16th. He was an Arsenal player for two years so left in 1976. In his final season with us, 1975/76, we finished 17th. That does not represent an improvement. It’s a decline. I’m not saying Mancini was the sole reason for that deterioration but I reckon he did play a part in it. Then we got rid of him and the next season following his departure, 1976/77, we improved and finished 8th.

I don’t recall OMOH’s contribution to the debate but if he said what you claim, then in my view he’s mistaken. I see Mancini as useless, utter garbage. I still recall his goal against Wolves and season ticket holders around me refused to celebrate, despite our precarious position, in case it resulted in him staying. Caesar automatically takes one of the central defence places in my worst ever Arsenal team. But Mancini, along with Blockley, is a serious candidate for the other.

Listen to what Charlie George says about Mee if you want to know something about him. Mancini joined on 24 October. We had a poor start but to claim Mancini saved us from relegation is idiotic. He was a terrible player. Awful, dreadful, an embarrassment to the shirt. It’s pathetic to argue otherwise. When it comes to Mancini I give more value to the views of those season ticket holders than I do yours.

What I will give you is he had a good sense of humour. The ITV version of the BBC’s Match of the Day did a player celebrity presented show at Christmas. Was it called The Big Match? Something like that. Mancini was on it one year and he was a far better TV presenter than a player. His two years at the club coincided with our struggles against relegation. A coincidence? I think not as he was partly responsible for it.

Today in 1970 with Jon Sammels nearly scoring against Chelsea.

Wow, what a photo.
By the way, did anyone mention that your Paul Davis Shoot! interview wasn't from 1998, but - more likely - from 1988? Call yourself a historian, TAFKAEiN? I don't know how you manage to keep drawing a wage from the forum.

No I am with Kiwi on this. Part of the reason we stayed up was Mancini. I believe we would have gone down without him but we will never know.

But, an error is an error so I'll hand back my wages for this week.

Good God I don’t believe it. I assumed kiwi was on a wind up, but now you? Mancini was utter shite. Way worse than Mustafi. That’s how bad he was. To give him the credit for keeping us up is laughable. It was mainly Ball, Kidd, Rimmer and Brady. Mancini’s main contribution was to nearly send us down whether or not he cracked a few jokes in the dressing room.

By the way, if Mee said what kiwi said he did about Mancini, it was probably to hide his own incompetence in signing him and releasing McLintock.

Well, when you earn more a week than Özil you can afford it.

Charlie George was a bad one but the loss that I felt the worse over was Brady.

Mancini didn't replace McLintock, Blockley did.

Charlie George said he was an arse to Mee and didn't like him because he was officious. He's clear that he was at least as responsible as Mee for their falling out.

Alan Ball (as have other players) said Mancini's attitude was a major reason we stayed up.

Yes he certainly wasn't much of a player but I think you're completely ignoring how important what happens off the pitch is to what happens on it.

This is a short but decent piece on Charlie:

https://gameofthepeople.com/2014/04/04/the-myth-and-legend-of-charlie-george/

There isn't much in the article about his falling out with Bertie Mee, which was pretty terminal apparently. Not much either about his spat with Don Revie which ended with Charlie getting changed and leaving the ground at half-time. There were frank exchanges of views in both cases.

The other thing about Charlie was that he'd appeared quite regularly in the Islington Gazette for some years before he actually broke into the team. In those days, the local paper had several pages on sport, mostly football, mostly Arsenal but plenty on school football where Charlie was a god. While he didn't play that long for The Arse, he is and always will be a bona fide legend for anyone who was around at the time.

Blockley joined in October 1972, so before McLintock left in July 1973. Mancini joined in October 1974, after McLintock left. If ‘replacements join after the player replaced, surely Mancini replaced McLintock? Having said that, whichever way you see it, McLintock was replaced by one or other of two of the worst central defenders I’ve ever seen at the club. I think Mee had lost it by then.

Who is Judas, Exiled

Charlie George. The King of Highbury, Holloway and Rowstock Gardens. Blimey Exiled back from Exile..

And don't get me started on Rog.

Charlie George. The King of Highbury, Holloway and Rowstock Gardens. Blimey Exiled back from Exile..

Stapleton.

Wotcha Steve. Been banged up?

Comes across as a bit of an odd character. He was a pundit on Irish TV for a good few years. Not sure there is a whole lot going on upstairs but he was relentlessly negative.

Always. Still going over the Arsenal for my sins. Surviving. You?

Famously described Keown eagle armed barracking of Nistleroy after the Vieira incident the worst thing he had ever seen in football. Thick as pigshit.

Wasn’t that how Fergie described it at the time as well?

Didn’t we get an astonishing amount of bans following that game? From memory it was Lauren, Vieira, Keown and Lehmann all took bans of at least 10 odd games together. Vieira with an extra game for not leaving the field quickly enough - for which no one has ever been banned for since.
Obviously as the biggest and most high profile match in England and almost the world at that time the league were going to absolutely treat us more harshly.

Good God I don’t believe it. I assumed kiwi was on a wind up, but now you? Mancini was utter shite. Way worse than Mustafi. That’s how bad he was. To give him the credit for keeping us up is laughable. It was mainly Ball, Kidd, Rimmer and Brady. Mancini’s main contribution was to nearly send us down whether or not he cracked a few jokes in the dressing room.

By the way, if Mee said what kiwi said he did about Mancini, it was probably to hide his own incompetence in signing him and releasing McLintock.