I find the subject immensely depressing and sad.

In my view, the whole Brexit agenda has been foisted upon us by an elite group of very rich and influential toffs, many of whose ancestors came over on the boat with Willie the Conq. This thing has been brewing for years. These are people who don't need Europe - indeed they need for nothing. They have never experienced deprivation in any form and they have no fear whatever of 'consequences'. They thrive on uncertainty; it's an engine of prosperity for those in a position of financial strength who can take advantage of the opportunities a broken economy will offer. All they fear is transparency in the form of what they see as unwarranted governmental intrusion into their financial dealings and holdings, for which the EU has been pressing for some time now.

As TG says, by subtly moving the focus over a number of years onto immigration, foreigners, austerity and what they term as a non-elected legislature - as if they themselves have ever been elected - they have shaped the debate, convincing vast areas of this island nation that the old enemy - Europe - is at the bottom of all our problems. They have fanned the flames to the point where it's now a curious alliance of the wealthy, the elderly, the under-educated and the under-privileged (brutal but in essence, true) who now carry the fight.

Sadly, I don't think this thing can be stopped. More worryingly, I can't see how the UK can be mended.

Apologies if I offend anyone with this view.

Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?

Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union

“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?

You clearly dislike him enough to exaggerate the problems about him. He has had plenty of good games. Prone to bad errors, I accept that. But not as bad as you try make out.

My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.

There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.

There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.

Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?

So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.

I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.

Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?

Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.

Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't. Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility. The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies. Of course our own politicians bear the ultimate responsibility for domestic matters, but if the membership of the EU can't make a big difference in solving our major issues, then why not try something else? If we Brexit we are not leaving paradise.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living. It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

I agree. If we are not careful the failure of Parliament to implement the result of something it asked the people to vote on will weaken Parliament itself.

Yes I agree where the ultimate domestic responsibility lies, but you make my point for me. EU membership is not about helping us solve our real social needs, but it may impact socially and economically on our ability to do so. I think it is widely accepted that overall we are a net contributor rather than beneficiaries of the market and its freedom of movement, and that has had an impact on our finances. In time we can probably do better outside the EU.

Trips to Germany, Belgium and Portugal in the EL group. Not bad. Glad we’ve avoided a journey to Kazakhstan or the like.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living. It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

Come again?

The achievements of the broader European project have been immense. 70 years of peace and prosperity. What's good for Europe is good for Britain.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living. It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

I know we still have a day before Spurs but I would be interested to know what others think about players & tactics for the game. Not sure I would play Xhaka( but think Emery will); would select Pépé but bring him on after 60 minutes; Lacazette & Aubameyang to start; I suppose we have no choice but to pick Luiz but I think he is problem. I want us to attacking & only occasionally play it out from the back but I think I will be whistling for that to happen & I expect Spurs to be shutting us down all the time. I am more than a little concerned with this game although Spurs are not playing all that well so we should be okay.