My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.

Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?

Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

I agree. He may turn out to be a decent player somewhere else but enough is enough.

My bet is that we will never leave the EU, so fear not!

Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't.
Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility.
The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.

Yes the position of referenda in our "constitution" is contentious, especially to those who lose the argument, but if you think not honouring the result of the largest one ever held in our history will heal divisions, then you are in for a rude awakening. If we don't Brexit - as I expect - then all bets are off about democracy in our basically decent country.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.

Your saying exactly that. It’s a gateway for trade and movement. A platform. We have the 7th largest gdp in the world. However because the government are helmets your saying we should leave without being able to identify a logical reason for leaving.

I’m not having anymore kids so therefore I won’t bother getting laid anymore.

Precisely.

I agree. If we are not careful the failure of Parliament to implement the result of something it asked the people to vote on will weaken Parliament itself.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

Well that is your best hope.

Your view that not implementing the referendum shakes democracy to the roots makes no sense to me.

It is parliament that is the sovereign institution. How can you think that the way MPs vote must be bound by a referendum result? If you think your MP has done something wrong, vote him or her out.

What has happened here is that the TORIES have screwed this up completely. They played a game that backfired completely on them.

I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies. Of course our own politicians bear the ultimate responsibility for domestic matters, but if the membership of the EU can't make a big difference in solving our major issues, then why not try something else? If we Brexit we are not leaving paradise.

Indeed! The EU didn't elect Thatcher or Blair. We are seeing this terrible scapegoatism in South Africa too. Everything from crime to unemployment is blamed on 'undocumented immigrants'.

Who are these men of lust, greed, and glory?
Rip off the masks and let see
But that's no right oh no, what's the story?
But there's you and there's me

The CBI estimates that the net benefit of EU membership is worth 4-5% of GDP to the UK, or £62bn-£78bn per year.

The EU is responsible for 44.6 per cent of all UK exports of goods and services, and 53.2 per cent of the UK’s imports of goods and services.

The achievements of the broader European project have been immense. 70 years of peace and prosperity. What's good for Europe is good for Britain.

Come again?

Yes I agree where the ultimate domestic responsibility lies, but you make my point for me. EU membership is not about helping us solve our real social needs, but it may impact socially and economically on our ability to do so. I think it is widely accepted that overall we are a net contributor rather than beneficiaries of the market and its freedom of movement, and that has had an impact on our finances. In time we can probably do better outside the EU.

Show me the goat I have scaped!

Yes I like apples too, but I was talking about oranges!

To repeat 5% of our total GDP is because we are in the EU.

Better check your passport is up to date and you have the necessary visas.

When Parliament asked the people to vote on the issue - and it did - and the people in huge numbers then made known their view - Parliament will lose credibility if it does not implement the vote.

Leaving the EU does not mean we cease trading with its members. It does mean we can trade with non-members on our, rather than EU terms. Swings and roundabouts. How high and fast the freer trade will go is not yet known, but trading there will be.

Yes, my passport is up to date, and if we actually do leave the EU at any point I'm sure I'll manage. As far as I know I'm not on Interpol's wanted list so I'm sure I'll be allowed in to spend my hard earned and do my bit to help the aforementioned neighbours' economies.

Even that is the fault of your politicians. You are going to get screwed over in trade deals outside the EU if you send the likes of Farage and Johnson to negotiate them.

So you don't acknowledge the primacy of Parliament when if comes to the details of Brexit? They must just rubber-stamp what the Tories come up with?

I am an outsider, so perhaps I am missing something.

" simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country" = oranges.

What I said = oranges.

(in fact, your statement was so encompassing that its apples too, but I'll leave that).

Sorry Old Man but I make no point at all in support of your notion that Europe has somehow failed the UK. Your arguments make no sense.

The vote to leave won the day and now you have the crazies , looneys and " the think they know betters " out in force trying to force a reversal

... if they get their way ...... ..... that will galvanise the crazies , looneys and " think they know betters ' from the other side to start rabble rousing .

You can't see that is a danger to democracy ....... ?

I know we still have a day before Spurs but I would be interested to know what others think about players & tactics for the game. Not sure I would play Xhaka( but think Emery will); would select Pépé but bring him on after 60 minutes; Lacazette & Aubameyang to start; I suppose we have no choice but to pick Luiz but I think he is problem. I want us to attacking & only occasionally play it out from the back but I think I will be whistling for that to happen & I expect Spurs to be shutting us down all the time. I am more than a little concerned with this game although Spurs are not playing all that well so we should be okay.

Ok, youre so wrong on this it hurts. My son is doing a PHD at Bath University which is entirely funded by an EU grant, as are the vast majority of higher diplomas in this country. He is also 40k in debt because our own government, the ones we want to hand power back to, have made sure that further education now costs an absolute fortune. His degree cost 40k because thats the UK education system, his PHD has cost nothing because of the EU. In Germany his degree would have cost nothing because the German government recognise the importance of higher education for their population and the positive effect it will have on their future, and they have the ability to make independent decisions on who should pay for it. They are not bound by EU directives on this. My son is also not doing a PHD because his mum and dad are rich, powerful, or entitled. Hes clever.

Recently my wifes health deteriorated due to her ulcerative colitis. Last year she had the majority of her large intestine, colon, and rectum removed and just about fought off septicaemia and now lives with a stoma bag. Her operation was performed by a marvellous Italian surgeon on the NHS, and 90% of the nurses who cared for her during her 3 weeks in hospital were EU immigrants. Without the EU and the free movement of trade and people our NHS wouldnt exist and my wife might well be dead.

So both of my direct family members have had their lives positively enhanced by the EU.

I would pick Luiz, and have him mark Kane. Give him lots of grief, but ask him not to be stupid with his hands around the box. We need the guile of Luiz to counter Kane and or Son.

Unfortunately Xhaka will start, because his size matters. He just needs to be faster with the ball. When will Emery start to get him to release the ball earlier?

Torreira is a starter for me. His tenacity is needed. Guendozi has become less effective in his role. He is becoming an "Elneny", abeit a notch higher.

Be brave and start all of Aubameyang, Lacazette and Pépé. Give Spurs something to worry about from the onset. Emery has to stop doubting his team and his players. Play these 3, and let them give Spurs little time to settle.

Talking of which, please play faster from the back. The slow-mo, many triangle passes at the back, is as irritating as the tippy-tappy from the past era. This facet of Emery's tactics is my current dislike of his style. It is not even effective, so why keep doing the same over and over?

Leno
AMN Sok Luiz Monreal
Torreira Xhaka
Pépé Ceballos Aubameyang
Lacazette

I will be surprised if Emery has the courage to select all 3 up front. I would pick Lacazette with Pépé but I think Emery likes Aubameyang and he is the first on the sheet. I know one thing I still think our defence looks poor.

Absolutely nail on the head DHD.

Anyone that thinks we are ruled by an unelected EU obviously has no clue about how the UK is ruled either.

The disaster capitalists and foreign govts are taking advantage of the ignorance of a large part of the UK population. They are laughing all the way to their tax havens, whilst also laughing at those who are (mainly in ignorance) voting for policies that effect this.

Its a very sad indictment of our education system.

People don't think or realise this sort of basic stuff:

But an almost equal amount of people (of those that voted), voted to remain. They also made their view known.

You make it sound as if it was a landslide, and it wasn't.

So you think the stuff about Cambridge Analytica, Putin, Bannon, Banks and suspect donations should be just brushed aside? Really?

"A danger to democracy" - what, like having another vote on the final outcome in case people have actually changed their minds? Like people do every 3-5 years in an election? More voting isn't a danger to democracy is it.

Good luck Nacho. You were a good professional for us.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/49534587
Nacho Monreal: Arsenal defender joins Real Sociedad

My final contribution on the EU debate for today at least.

Up until a few years ago, I would have been very indifferent to the thought of, or desire for, Welsh independence. I have been overall a relatively happy member of the status quo regarding the UK, albeit unhappy with the actions of some governments (Poll tax, Iraq, bedroom tax etc).

What I have seen over the past few years has brought to stark light the rottenness at the heart of Westminster:
the way our politicians seem to have been bought off (or are being blackmailed);
a PM who is on record as a liar, who has been recorded conspiring to assault a reporter;
cabinet ministers who say one thing today, the opposite tomorrow;
ministers like Patel voting on contracts having given paid advice to the company bidding for the contract;
constant lies not being challenged;
the ability of extremists like Farage to command the media spotlight, thanks to how our press is run; and the role of social media in manipulating public opinion has been frightening.

I have also come to believe that we are in the throes of the selling off of the UK, and that Brexit is simply a means to an end in the hands of those (like Rees Mogg) who in my opinion are conspiring against the UK. This time though, it won't be a possible invasion by tanks and troops that we will have to fight off. We might have have had a chance about that. No, it'll be a takeover by stealth of all our public assets, a process started some years ago but now coming to fruition.

Our NHS (which American health insurance companies are slavering over) will go, public services will be privatised and cut back to nothing, the least able in society will suffer, retirement age pushed ever upwards, and the financial divide between rich and poor will increase exponentially.

As Top Gun has mentioned, there are many people in Scotland now questioning their position viz a viz the UK, and Scottish independence is a real possibility. Wales doesn't get the same publicity as Scotland (for Wales, see England), but I can tell you that I am not alone in now considering Welsh independence as a preferable alternative to living in what the UK will become. People who 10 years ago would have laughed at the idea, are now beginning to wonder.

Brexit is nothing at all to do with the EU in reality, its simply a vehicle that has allowed tax dodging parasites to dictate political discourse and policy in this country.

And finally, to those who say it was the will of the people and those who voted remain should just shut up and get on with it:
a) that's not how true democracy works, people are allowed to change their minds (both ways)
b) Farage himself said that if the vote had been 52/48 the other way, he would have carried on campaigning.