Wenger is nothing but loads of invented excuses nowadays. Sad to see him stoop so low. His credibilty as a coach went much earlier, but now he is putting his credibility as a person on the line as well. He should just pack it in. Salvage whatever is left for people to admire, of him.

Sadly I have to agree. Despite being able to come out punching in the odd press conference, Wenger certainly looks like more of a dead man walking than at any time before, and the 'unbelievable belief' cited by Merse all those years ago is nowhere to be seen.

Notice the first sentence has been changed now.

Not yet. Though both have shown enough for me that in the right set-up they can be very effective, and as such I'm reserving judgement for another year, particularly if that involves a new manager.

I agree with that. Xhaka makes perfect sense as the deep playmaker but we are very unbalanced and seem to only have one style of play - short passing. As for Mustafi, he is probably adjusting to being totally exposed as all Arsenal centre backs frequently are.

I think a new manager could do better with 2/3 of this squad overnight just be drilling them in collective pressing, defensive positioning and patterns of play in the middle third.

Each time I have seen Bournemouth this season, Arter has been their standout midfielder. Jack has lots of talent but I think the injuries have taken their toll. Sadly, I don't think he will ever be top level.

I respect the fact that you and others have felt sympathy for him far longer than I have. Maybe when he finally goes I'll feel some, but unfortunately the arrogance he is has shown over several years in trying to cling on in desperation to some meaning in his life and former glories, and the way he is damaging Arsenal -even though I'm sure he doesn't think he is- means I can't feel sad for him. The debate over his legacy can start once he's gone , but Wenger has seriously undermined his achievements by sticking around for the last 3 years at least and I would go back further.

Whilst you and others on this forum have given Wenger the benefit of the doubt until a lot more recently, based on various issues including the money available until 2013 (Without raking all over that again ), a lot of his character traits - and there negative impact - have been obvious to many of us for years and this was why we got to this point circa 2010 11. Never again should a big football club allow one employee such power. As always the Ferguson comparison in longevity werevcompletely different as he was a consistent winner, and besides in some ways he was always quite humble about his role as an employee within Manchester United even though he is a managerial legend.

Watched an interview with Liam Brady the other day and he was saying the same.

This is actually the biggest problem with Wenger. Between 97-06 he managed to inherit, shape and buy players who formed 2 or 3 squads packed with tactical intelligence and individual intelligence and strength of character. You hear the 98 squad, 02 squad and 04 squad talk about themselves and each other and not only are they all really strong characters with a certain conviction, but they are all very very smart players. And Wenger's style is perfect for well trained, experienced and intelligent players as it places an onus on trust, personal responsibility and freedom to develop solutions. But when your players aren't as good or intelligent or tactically aware it falls down because there is no systemic comfort blanket.

Wilshere is very talented, but in the modern game I wonder if he has the pace and power to really make his mark at a top premiership club - also the lack of goals and assists is a concern. Guardiola is a big fan - what would the price be that we say ok you can go to City? £25m?

Yeah, very true. Helps when they talk to someone who a) makes any sense and b) doesn't want to be a youtube celeb. Can't argue with too much he's said there at all.

I think the thing is, even I have been aware of his failings for a 8 years or so, but felt the strengths outweighed the weaknesses given our position. I still maintain that he did a really good job for the club until maybe 2011 and then was still in the credit column at the end of each year up until 2015. Last year was a let down and this year, with the money spent in the summer has to be seen as a real disappointment, as he finally bought players in the needed positions and spent money like the manager of a big club for the first time since 2001, and the team is no better than last year, despite Sanchez having a wonderful season as an unexpected striker.

I could live with his stubbornness and tactical weaknesses when he was still picking up either top quality or potential top quality players in the 10m bracket or less, because he was showing a strength that his direct rivals were not. But when you spend £90m on players net in a summer and get a similar level of collective performance as before, then the relative strength if identifying gems doesn't hold as much weight.

Also frankly, tactically and at times selection wise, this year he seems more out of touch than ever, to be honest. At least his chaotic systems before seemed specifically designed to suit a certain style or philosphy or were built around our best players. This year, since maybe November, its been almost impossible to even identify what the manager is trying to do.

Lom but there were also players during the successful era that needed a lot of help and were not naturally brilliant in their positions. He made good players great, changed players' positions successfully and even turned unknowns into brilliant players. Toure's conversion to centre back was a masterstroke and Lauren at rb was also a brilliant move. This would have needed a lot of coaching. Cashley even, developed a lot under Wenger, I think he was an offensive player to begin with but improved incredibly as a defender.

I think he has lost that split second. The quick change of direction or quick pass is gone. He has the brain and the guts to play as a DM but is far too fragile. Then again, I'd probably have him in the squad ahead of Coquelin.

True (though Toure was actually a centre half in the ivory coast before coming to Arsenal but lacked positional discipline), but Cole and Lauren were both incredibly motivated and strong characters AND were converted within very strong teams surrounded by top players with great tactical knowledge. Of course Wenger improved them, as he did a lot of players, but they were all pretty remarkable individuals. The invincibles book by Amy Lawrence gives a wonderful insight into the personalities of that group, and it seems a massive contrast to much of the current lot. Also, many of them had experienced real journeys, often involving hardship, rejection or personal issues that led them to that point. Mentally tough guys, even Bobby Pires in his own way.

The current lot? Not enough mentally tough and tactically intelligent players to keep the rest going and aid their development. Its why I've no problem with Mertesacker having his contract renewed. He's a very smart guy, universally respected by the others and talks about life and the game very well. But not many of them come across as particularly strong mentally or serious about their work when interviewed.

From what I've seen of them I'd say, Mertesacker, Sanchez, Welbeck, Čech, Kos are good guys to build a squad around personality wise. I suspect that when a new man comes in, 5-10 of our current squad will be gone in 2 years, as not all will be able to adjust to a different managerial approach.

This is true. Kos was far from the finished article when we signed him too. RVP went from a sort of half-striker to one of the best out and out centre-forwards in Europe. The short-passing game, absence of physical misfielders and a tactic of fullbacks playing too far forward has left us hugely vulnerable against good sides for years.

We had some absolute beasts at that time. For me, Sol was immense. Once the 98 team was disbanded, we needed a rock solid player that would be our foundation to build on. We already had Vieira, Henry and Bergkamp. But if we didn't get Sol, that back four we had in our title wins in 02 and 04 just doesn't work no matter how self motivated and determined they were. That is why imo, he is England's best centre back in the last 20 years and alongside Adams as Arsenal's two greatest centre backs. That team had such a great spine that others were able to flourish. Players like Edu, Wiltord, Freddy etc were all excellent but not world class. Yet blossomed because of the three/four world class players that we did have. We also played a more direct, aggressive less tippy tippy game not mention that the rest of the league was also significantly weaker.

Hi Sab,

Any defence in europe would have improved with Sol in their backline. He was a man mountain.......big, powerful, quick, athletic and intimidating. Few opposition players fancied a 50-50 with Sol.

Look at yesterday, Kos (who is our best CB of the last few years) was losing headers to players who aren't even good in the air.

Hi Soc. Kos remains our best defender but he still has a casual nature about him sometimes and is not dominant in the air. Which is why I desperately wanted his new partner to be a beast in the air.

Sol was head and shoulders above Koscielny. You could do a similar thing throughout the whole side with then and now players. Not forgetting that the opposition is also much stronger nowadays.

I agree about Campbell. When Wenger's gone (hopefully only another three months) and people start discussing his very best signings, for me Sol is in the top three with Henry and Vieira. I suppose pedants might argue Vieira can't officially be counted as a Wenger signing because he signed for the club before Wenger's first day of employment as Arsenal manager. But I do as we all know Vieira was only signed because Wenger asked Dein to get him.

I reached the "credit in the bank " moment in may 2009 after the Man U & chavs home thrashings in a week, by the 2011 collape after the Birmingham final he'd run out for me , coincidentally that was a contract renewal year too

I had heard the hype about Sol from my Spud mates but it was only when I saw him in the flesh keep Wrighty in his back pocket a couple of times and once quite easily beat Owen (don't ask why I was at Shite Hart Lane) in a straight race that I realised how quick and powerful he was. He was linked with all the massive clubs so to get him when the likes of Adams, Keown and Uncle Bouldy were reaching the end was beyond sensational. I agree with the top three AW signings but impossible to put in order.

I really would have to put bobby in the top 3 , with the obvious 2 although Campbell is close

For me Pires is fourth.

Plus I had a man crush on him

That sways it

Surely anelka has to be in the top 3 Wenger signings ? Spent 500k on him and sold him after winning the double for 23 million, then spent half that on a new training ground and the other half we bought Henry with.

As I said yesterday clearly not tactical

Another rumour is Özil was due to be dropped after his Bayern performance and pulled a sickie
..

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... are_btn_tw

It was an incredible bit of business TG. Fantastic player for us too. Just not as important as Henry, Vieira or Sol.
Loved Bob who would be 4th for me. And Overmars was a personal fave too!
Damn has Wenger gone already? Reminiscing about all these wonderful ex players :-)

Yeah I think if you were judging it on the player themselves those 3

My ten

1) Vieira (Wenger was mad to sell him btw)
2) Henry
3) Sol
4 ) Bobby
5) Anelka
6) Petit
7) overmars
8) Sylvinho (dodgy passport aside he was a great player and a real snip)
9) Lauren
10) Van Persie

Hard to include Sanchez or Özil because they were big money

Sanchez if off, we have to do two things, make sure he doesn't get sold to an English team (even if it's for less money) and secondly get a proper fee for him. I've heard talk of £25m which is an absolute joke. The problem as with our stars in the past is that once again we will not be in a position of strength. We should be asking for £40m minimum.

I do think his attitude has become a problem for the team, but it is all born from pure frustration at the lack of ambition. Sanchez is feeling exactly what the fans are feeling so everyone has sympathy with him

What about Fabregas. I know we love to hate him and he didn't win anything. But to bring over an unknown 15 year old kid and get him playing in Arsenal's central midfield at 17 and captaining and carrying the team at 21 was something special. If we include Anelka then we should include Fabregas

Özil pulling a sickie rumour is also being hinted at in newspaper articles tonight.

If we've reached the stage that our players are pulling sickies to avoid getting dropped then something is fundamentally broken at the club.

I don't really consider him or Bellerin signings as such. Youth players more so

Reading that Alexis walked out of training in midweek after a disagreement with another player and the row continued in the dressing room.

In those circumstances Wenger probably had little option but to leave him on the bench.

Yeah it orginated from the Mirror so thought probably bs but now it's been published on many other websites.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -liverpool

Sounds like Sanchez is doing Wenger's job for him, Wenger is a soft touch.

Agree, there must be internal discipline no matter the player.

Every week there just seems to be a bit more revealed that shows how much of a mess we are in from top to bottom. You have to wonder who will fix it? Who in an authority position at the club do we have who has the passion for winning and the ability to fix us?

I think the fall out this summer will be massive, unless the board get some stability in the club quickly then we can write off next season. I also think the fall out will be bigger than Ferguson leaving Man U. Previously I thought Fergie left a poor squad, which he did, but the powers that be at Man U gave the managers money, they acted decisively (even if they made some wrong decisions) and it would be no surprise to see them right up there next season. It feels like the mess we are in is going to take us years to recover from.

Sanchez for player manager

and greetings to you too .

His interview yesterday ..... "we had a bit more time off and weren't at the races "

Bu ... but ..but Arsene many times you've blamed defeat on a short span between matches tiredness etc etc ...but now this latest setback is because we had too much time off

Much is made of Sanchez's exclusion but that really is sad indictment of the club , that ONE player can effect team performance .

He hasn't lost the dressing room , he himself hasn't a clue what is wrong , as shown by his gobbledey gook positive interviews .

The sameness of the team performances , the sameness of the post match interviews , the same idiot tweets from players about lessons learned , surprised by intensity ....it's like being on life support you are still alive but all enjoyment has gone out the window .

Not counting v Southampton reserves ...... when is the last time you could say Arsenal played really well and were a joy to watch ...?

.
Voila .... it's just hit me .... Arsene's quote "we weren't at the races "

..... he thought we were going to Aintree not Anfield ......