I thought Özil had a fine game against Manchester United, as did Xhaka. So maybe Özil might get back to his best, ideally in the cup final?

I thought Özil played well against United, particularly in the second half when he held onto the ball well and barely missed a pass. He is still some way from his best though. It's hard to know what to take from Sunday's game because United were awful and just sat deep putting no pressure on our midfield. The next couple of games might give us a better indication of where we are at.

Wenger on a Director of Football. We should not decide the structure of an organisation. I await Hoy's (Sir Chips) enlightened views to set us on the straight and narrow. IMO he is trying to keep the status quo and in doing so if the the club insist on structural changes it will give him some justification as to why he will not sign a contract. He believes he is bigger than the club. It is now May - what happened to March April.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/ ... 95269.html

This is interesting.

http://news.arseblog.com/2017/05/wenger ... ce=twitter


Gazidis has an angle now if he wishes to use it. Appoint a DOF and arsene is gone.

I think there's a very simple explanation as to why he hasn't announced as he suggested. I think he thought the results would pick up and it would be an easier atmosphere to announce that he's staying. Obviously results have still been very up and down so the environment is not right.

Read that Mourinho is planning buy Aguero. Hmmm....possible game changer there.

Been looking at videos of classic players. Denis Law is pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHGsqQvJ_xo

Why would City sell him to their main rivals...unless Maureen is prepared to spunk over £100m I think that rumour is nonsense.

Much as I think OMOH is venturing into territory that is best left to others, his stance is (in a roundabout way) strengthened by Wenger categorically stating what we all knew, and certainly reflects the rumour mill...

It seems that the manager renewing or not is a lot more down to an internal power battle between him and Gazidis, with the latter wanting to update the club's modus operandi to an appropriate post-Wenger model, where the club's long term vision is more important to the preferences of an individual manager, and quite understandably (from his own perspective) Wenger is totally unwilling to give up any power in order to embrace a system that contradicts his entire managerial experience to date.

As such, unless Wenger had pulled out the kind of season to make his position utterly impregnable, it seems that results are not the primary consideration.

Which renders any current argument about losing games as good for the club's long term future as fatuous as it sounds in principle.

But then, I tend to think that anyone wanting the team it lose is missing the point. If you want the team not to win to be rid of the manager, surely that desire to be rid of him should be softened when the team performs well? Anyway, in this case, it's increasingly apparent that results (unless title winning or absolutely disastrous, neither of which is likely with our squad at present) are not the primary deciding factor at this point.

Which, in a way, is no bad thing

Maybe the silly season has started early. Who knows...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/201 ... o-arsenal/

I think you're possibly underestimating the importance of Champions League qualification to Kroenke. Look at it this way. There is pretty good evidence that there is a boardroom split over Wenger, with some directors (including Gazidis) wanting him out and others more willing to see him continue (crucially at this point including Stan). If that is the case, and I believe it is as I've been told by a source I consider reliable which directors are on each side of that particular fence, I would suggest that changing Stan Kroenke's mind is vitally important because it is he that owns two-thirds of the shares and it is therefore him who to all intents and purposes owns, or at least controls, the club.

If Arsenal somehow get into the top four, I would expect Stan to simply tell those directors on the Wenger out side of the fence to politely sod off. Not get rid of them as I'm hearing his son Josh, who is also a director, doesn't share his father's enthusiasm for Wenger. But with Stan being so concerned with the money making side of Arsenal, it is perfectly feasible that missing out on the £30-40m (whatever it is now) will greatly trouble him. So much so, not getting into next year's Champions League could easily persuade Stan that the directors wanting Wenger out may have an extremely valid point after all. Therefore, for those who see Wenger's departure as beneficial for the long-term future of the club and with missing out on Champions League qualification making that far more likely because of Stan's fondness for money, I can see the sense in them wanting Arsenal to drop enough points to ensure missing out on a top four place. I certainly wouldn't call it 'fatuous'. Perhaps I'm being unfair but calling it that makes you sound almost as snooty and sneering as hoy, and I think that takes some doing as I sometimes get the impression that hoy must have a Nobel Prize in sneering and snootiness.

Sounds like you're conflicted? Perhaps the best solution for you is to want Arsenal to win and also want Arsene to go? Pretty simple really. Not sure why folks have complicated things by wanting Arsenal to lose. To describe somebody who wants us to win as 'snooty' is very strange.

I must have missed that, so apologies to you. On season tickets people surely renew them because they support the club rather than individual players or managers? If our bloke was 'killing' Arsenal, as is variously alleged, or was fighting relegation, or was some sort of criminal, I could see why he might be an issue. But that isn't the case. Perspective seems to have been lost somewhat.

But a certain manager did sign him.

It might help, Hoy, if you ever read and considered what people say before reaching for the default weapons of condescension and whimsy?

It's been explained a thousand times.

With regard to Lom's point earlier I don't think it is quite so simple. For many years we appear to be locked in a cycle. Part of that cycle involves CL qualification and occasional FA cup success. It is a legitimate position in principle and not fatuous at all to accept sacrificing those to break the cycle which can only happen if Wenger leaves (I don't say this is necessarily correct just that it is legitimate to hold this view and be a passionate supporter of the club in general). Most struggle with this in practice and are naturally going to go wild in the stadium and love beating Man U. They certainly don't need some sanctimonious old nag wagging his finger and telling them they're not real fans especially when they invest considerably more in their support than he obviously does.

I am a bit confused by that Lom. What subject of debate is a no-go area for anybody on this forum? Do I need a pass to get in? Sorry if I am missing the point, but I am!

That was a short break!

Yeah I took expert opinion and changed my mind.

Delighted Wenger didn't sign Fabregas again. He can spray around as many passes as he likes - once in a while - he's still a snidey little *%^@.

Although if you're just gonna do the whole "I never want Arsenal to lose and I am going to go on about it in a slightly affected contrarian way while not listening to what anybody says to me on the subject" we won't get very far and I might well still decide the season is over so your luck may well still be in on that score...

Nah, you just like a ruck with a dose of personal smearing so you can get a reaction. Better than doing the garden I suppose.

While you meanwhile - gentle old nosetweaker that you are - just stroll amiably on here after every game to dish out your own peculiar variety of whimsical insults wrapped in half-truths because you're bored of doing your garden?

As an accurate reader of the forum you will have noticed that my voice (plums 'n all) is a minority one when it comes to that old devil called Arsene. As the magnificent democrat you are, I would expect you to cherish diversity of opinion and my right to say what the *%^@ I like about any subject that is debated, especially the inanity of wanting our team to lose.

I mean let's be honest I'm not the one hectoring all and sundry about how they're not matching your high standards of loyalty while lying about what they've actually said?

I certainly am. I think it is an entirely legitimate opinion which I have said on many occasions. You are quite wrong in your assessment of my motives - I just happen to believe you are being dishonest and meretricious in your attacks on others who hold a different one to yours.

Because people don't "want our team to lose". Those are the words you have put into their mouths. It has been explained to you over and over again. The most extreme view is probably mine - that if I thought losing to Chelsea in the cup final WOULD get rid of Wenger I would take it. In theory. But I would almost certainly change it were I at Wembley because seeing your team lose is hard and painful. But you prefer - for whatever reason - to cling to the strawman you have constructed and just keep sneering which is a side of you that actually I quite rarely see.

Garden is sorted. Fish fed. Garage painted. Food cooked. And still there is time to pull the plonkers of the bizarre Arsenal-to-lose 'fans'. Who it seems cannot accept even a small dose of medicine.

'Liar, liar, pants on fire!'

No, they want Arsenal to lose, as part of the whatever-it-takes to get rid of Arsene Wenger operation, and they have said so repeatedly. That is no invention, and no amount of explanation to the contrary will uninvent it. As for sneering comments, you have seen no other examples of it, for instance when alluding to our manager, Beelzebub Wenger? For every so-called sneer or snoot I commit, you will find ten times the number from other posters. Go flay them, O Great Explainer.

In fairness you set out your stall to be irritating and you have succeeded so well done on that. I am not a massive one for ignoring and blocking so will probably continue to respond from time to time. And you can continue to push your schtick of mild-mannered whimsy which I have never really been fooled by for a moment.

Moving it on from me, I've had plenty of rucks with Bernard over the past and had every reason to correct him on everything from economics to epistemology. I think he would be the first to admit that he's learned from it. But one thing I genuinely wouldn't do is put inverted commas around fan because it's obvious he's a genuine obsessive about the club. He certainly continues to invest much more time than me and far more time than you in following us home and away. He is right that there is a boardroom split, he is right that the usual Wenger successes wills strengthen his supporters at board level and there is nothing inane or fatuous in not wanting that to happen for the long term good of the club. You may agree or disagree - I am certainly closer to him than you given the nature of what has been happening at the club - but it is not inane, fatuous, treacherous or any of the other adjectives you might deploy while deciding to take every common metaphor literally.

So you've got some chutzpah to come around giving it the big 'un about who is in need of their plonker being pulled really.

There you go again with those sneaky little inaccuracies - I have not talked of treachery or fatuousness. And you tell me I don't read what is in front of me! Anyway, I have called it inane to want Arsenal to lose, because as a way of changing the management of the team (which is the whatever-it-takes rationale) it certainly makes little sense at this time. We are going to finish in the top six and will have European football next season. There is a chance we may win the FA Cup. That may not please all Arsenal fans, but if that is failure, it is only a relative one. I imagine that in the eyes of those who run the club, they may think it is still worth backing a man who has delivered for them for over twenty years. Lom made the point that the loss of significant ECL broadcasting revenue for next season could change opinion on the board, but Arsene out is not going to change that for 2017/18. It wouldn't be a shock if the board retained him as the man to get the team back in the ECL as he has quite a good track record of doing so.

On correcting Bernard, how did that go?

There you go again sweating the small stuff. The word fatuous was in fact used by Lom just now and you have certainly questioned the loyalty of several around here and put inverted commas around fans as well as calling them inane or announcing they know little about football (I am happy to forgo your 'knowledge' which tends to consist largely of listing). I was simply making the point that none of these adjectives were appropriate. You meanwhile have committed the far more egregious sin (it's not really a sin don't worry I am speaking figuratively) of simply ignoring people who try and protest that they have not said what you claim. Does you little credit.

But at least you are now trying a substantive argument. And mostly it is rubbish. There is a crisis in our club. This is not a crisis relative to Villa or Dartford as we have said time and time again, it is a crisis relative to where this club has gone, is going, should be going and where we were told it would be going. A manager who has been at the club for twenty years simply will not recognise that his time has come around and endangers the club in doing so. People are losing interest and drifting away. My own kid who wept bitter tears only recently when we lost now shakes his head with indifference. Fans fight in the stadium. Seats are empty. There IS a problem. So I find it sad and worrying the direction in which we are going and I think we urgently need change. Now try once again and marshall the small cognitive function that it takes to get this relatively simple point. I can see a situation where Wenger winning stuff is bad in the long term for the club if it encourages three more years of what we have had over the last several - I don't actually think that is even feasible without really massive problems. I can understand people who would prefer to lose now to hopefully avoid more 10/2 drubbings against Bayern. So can thousands of others. It isn't a very controversial logical position. There are even a range of metaphors and cliches to cover it. Battles and wars etc. But also, surprise surprise, most people who say this in their frustration may not really want it to happen or might go mad in the stadium when Welbeck scores just as I did (at around the same time as you were tucking into your bread pudding).

I know you look askance at the opinions of others while I often find them quite interesting but the media (put on your tin foil hat) of every type from symapthetic bloggers to sympathetic journalists have discussed this and it is a major sporting story. Your preference for sticking your fingers in your ears and affecting a breezy nonchalance about it all while being decidedly snooty about anybody who disagrees with you or discusses it is a bit of a pain in the hole. You say I just do this because I like a ruck with a personal smear but actually it's far more simple. I think you are being quite often wilfully stupid and often very dishonest about this and I don't have the necessary gravitas to just shake my head and let it go yet.

Perhaps, but if the other directors want to introduce a more 21st century structure and Stan tells them they can't simply in order to keep Wenger happy, whilst being content with undermining those closest to him in official status, then its going to take more than 1 year's absence from the top four for him to show Wenger the door.

I also think its very unlikely we'll make top four seeing as it would require us to win all our remaining fixtures and for others to slip up...

also returning briefly to the point Lom made about results improving.

It's a tricky one because I have pondered it. Surely if we get CL qualification and a cup final that is enough to justify the opposite of wanting him out.

In my case no because it is not about trophies per se but the general direction of the club, the type of football we play and the impact of the players we do sign. I no longer trust Wenger on any of these things and like many have found the years of always folding when it matters and failing to challenge the big clubs in any meaningful way to be deeply frustrating. I don't think he can change it and we will go back to more of the same.

He's been here 20 years. It's time to go.

On the later point, I think anyone telling anyone else how to be a 'real' fan (and lets face it, its been all over both sides of this argument, on this forum and elsewhere) needs to reconsider their priorities. As an activity that fundamentally serves no purpose than for one's own interest and pleasure, for anyone to pass dictats is a little insane. I'd never accuse anyone on here (a few long since gone types excepted) of being a bad fan. Mad, paranoid, self-satisfied? Sure. A bad fan? Not with the hours put in.

Re your response to me, you appear to have misunderstood my point. I'm happy if Wenger goes...its time. I just don't think our five remaining games this season are going to be what determines that, and as such, wanting us to lose in order for him to leave is, at this stage, pointless...because we aren't going to finish lower than 6th and its a long shot to finish above 5th (albeit possible) - though I don't believe his job is dependent on top 4 anyway. My broader point was more in reference to the fact that some (not many on here) wanted Wenger to lose games in order to get the sack when we were still very much in the race for the title in this season and in multiple previous ones. But ultimately, if at those times Wenger actually won the games in question, it would be mad to sack him as we'd have had a decent shot at the title.

I was referring to your determination to set some new record for stubbornness and banging a particular drum. All I need to say is "Freddie or Wiltord" and surely you'll realise you are aspiring towards an achievement that not only is nigh on impossible, but also will make your posts absolutely unbearable for years to come...

Or "referees".

(Sorry couldn't resist it).

I never saw people wanting us to lose during any kind of title challenge although to be honest I'm struggling slightly to remember when we were seriously making one...

Given the temptation I've dangled on that front expecting you of all people to resist it would be entirely unrealistic of me! But nothing will match the great to and fro of the 2001-2005 right wing set to. That one still rears its head now, like a futility Zombie.

As for the title challenge issue, you may not have noted it as it wasn't more than a few times on here (twitter/ANR/blogs on the other hand...), but it stood out for me as such a fine example of anti-logic that it found a place in my memory.

A bit like whoever it was the other day who said they lost faith with Wenger after the 2-2 with Birmingham...even though we were still top of the league at the time....and only missed out on the title by four points due to the much more damaging dropped points in 4 of the next 5 fixtures.

In light of Wenger's last comments, this is a well timed story from Matt Law:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/201 ... d-premier/