Everyone wanted Lewandowski...Your point? The fact is Bayern had a contractual agreement a year in advance which was common knowledge among anyone paying attention and was widely reported. They tried to get him to force a move away before hand, but he wanted to try to win the ECL with Dortmund first. Either way, they broke the rules, but a la Barca and Madrid, got away with it because of who they are.

Re Goetze...why do you think they released the information on the afternoon of the ECL semi then? Was it just a coincidence? Was it also a coincidence that Goetze got booed by his own fans as a result, stunk the game out, and his form went down the toilet? Or was that another example of Bayern's generosity?

The majority of ex players love Wenger partly due to this loyalty which is a great quality. However if it costs the club money when selling players then that's not so great. And I'd say the loyalty is a bit missplaced if it potentially impacts on the team negatively, ie playing Ospina over Čech which weakened us in the final.

I certainly wish Arsenal were more like Bayern in their commercial competence and their youth scouting, but in the same way I look at Chelsea and others, there is doing what you can to be the best and then there is going beyond that, which seems unnecessary and slightly immoral. Of course 75% of the way Bayern operates is a fantastic model, same with Barca, but both have power which they abuse. Its utterly ruthless, and we could do with rather more of that, but for me, both take it too far. I know my romantic ideals may seem unrealistic, but they are where I stand.

There is no doubt that Arsenal pushed the rules a bit regarding poaching kids for a brief while a few years ago, but not nearly as much as Chelsea, Utd or Liverpool and certainly nowhere near the amount as teams they poached from like PSG and Barca, the latter of whom have a disgraceful record of doing so in dubious and sometimes illegal circumstances, but always get away with a slap on the wrist.

Its in part because in other European countries, the sporting authorities are more interested in the glory of the biggest teams, particularly in European competition than in the competitiveness of the league. At least German ownership structures provide some needed balance, and the TV money is nothing like as bent as it is in Spain, but despite the financial dominance of certain clubs in England, the league applies both rules and financial reward far more fairly than any other major league (which actually undermines English teams in European competition as we have more competitive weekly fixtures and no help from the fixture lists).

Spain is so bent as to be a joke. In Germany, part of the problem is that Bayern are stupendously rich compared to every other team, and are quite willing to, like Mourinho;s Chelsea, buy players they don't need simply to weaken domestic rivals. Dortmund have sorted themselves out a bit, but still are miles behind Bayern financially.

Italy suffers from the TV money differential for European games being so vast that Juve can outspend all but Milan and Inter at will (and those two clubs are appallingly run).

France is PSG's money plus the odd good year for someone else.

In England, the league has only been dominated by Fergies Utd (richer, better manager and a better youth set up than everyone else) and Liverpool in the 80s (similar advantages). Bar that its always been the most competitive of the leagues, and thus less open to abuse by the most powerful.

Tell that to the Bremen President who is hopping mad, and whose club is in a financial mess (probably partly his fault). To clubs like Arsenal, Bayern etc its chump change. But it matters to others.

Never loan a player to Pulis again. The WBA fans weren't happy he got so little time. I know Arsenal were trying to sign him on again since about Feb last year, but you know how these things work. Wenger had him in the first team squad at 17, but he missed over a year with an awful injury and then when he chose WBA as a loan destination that was a disaster.

Re Gnabry, I've not a massive problem with his actions. He got a better offer and is allowed to change his mind, no matter how it messes people around. Bayern on the other hand, appear to have used another club as a feeder team by agreeing something with a player that is against the rules but impossible to prove.

I just think you're overstating things. It's less than a million quid.

Also if there was a prior agreement with Bayern, I don't see what the Bremen president has to be hopping mad about as he was in post when it would have been agreed last year (Fischer has been the president since 2014).

I genuinely don't know. Perhaps the press had got hold of the story and were going to release it? But I very much doubt Bayern did it to lower Dortmund's chances against Real Madrid, as you claimed with next to no evidence, as I strongly suggest they would rather have played Dortmund in the final than Real. I don't remember how Gotze played in the game, do you? However, the other ten players must have been sensational if Gotze "stunk the game out", as you put it, considering the result.

And who do you think briefed the press? It was about to be released in Bild by the reporter known as Bayern's mouthpeice and the Dortmund manager and directors made it pretty clear how unhappy they were with Bayern's conduct through insinuation. In fact Bayern leaked it to the press before they even notified Dortmund, which was equally poor.

Of course, it may have been released at that time in part to deflect from Uli Hoeness's tax evasion trial the following week, but surely in that case they could have waited a day.

As for the game Goetze was pretty quiet. Lewandowski gave one of the best centre-forward performances I've ever seen and Reus was excellent too.

Previous agreement with the player, rather than the club is what I'm implying - others have implied that Bremen may have had the transfer funded by Bayern, but that would be very very damaging if they were caught out, so I don't see it as implausible. Here Bayern have circumnavigated the rules using a loophole where any illegality is impossible to prove, but it is clearly in dodgy territory. If Wenger knew (as he certainly suggested) Bayern were involved in the initial transfer, as many others speculated, then technically he'd be within his rights to report them, but getting into a legal battle with Bayern would be very dangerous, and wouldn't have been worth it in this case.

There is no doubt that Bayern have at best exploited a loophole to reduce their own risk and to do Arsenal out of some money, but its impossible to prove categorically that they broke the law in doing so unless they were very naive, which I don't believe they are.

I don't see "pretty quiet" being the same as stinking the game out. I still say Bayern would have preferred to play Dortmund instead of Real Madrid in the final, so I write off your accusation that they did it to undermine Dortmund's chances against Real as extremely far-fetched, to say the least.

Didn't Ospina make important saves in the final? So long ago now I've forgotten...

I always find that when there are unproven rumours supporting what you want to think happened you seem more than willing to accept them. But if unproven rumours contradict what you want to think happened you seem far more willing to question their reliability. Perhaps Wenger didn't know exactly what happened, whatever he chooses to suggest. Who knows how reliable the speculation of others is, as well?

To be honest, I think you're making too much fuss over very little. The money it cost Arsenal was pretty minimal considering the finances of the upper levels in modern football. Also, as I've heard rumours that Arsenal would much prefer to sell Sanchez to Bayern than a domestic rival (a rumour, but a highly logical one), even if there's truth in your accusations perhaps it hasn't annoyed Arsenal enough to make them unwilling to do business with them?

Ospina's time-wasting was pretty effective but I doubt Čech would have let Chelsea's goal in.

Fifa investigate transfers from time to time where illegality or breach of their own rules is suspected. I'd investigate the hell out of this one. You're falling into the opposite error that you're saying lomekian is, don't you think Bernard??

He did make important saves and we won so it vindicated Wenger's decision to stick with him. And loyalty is a great quality overall. My point is though we started the game weaker and sometimes this loyalty can be to our detriment. If you go back there have been examples where Wenger has no doubt stuck with players in big games because of his policy to play certain players and we've lost important games due to squad players being chosen ahead of our first choice. Several times we threw away top spot in Champions league by fielding youngsters in the penultimate group stage games only for the regulars coming back in the final game to try and salvage top spot. There was also the final against Chavski in 2007 and that embarrassment against Tottenham in the league cup. And when you look at the list of some of those players who were given a chance, many didn't even make it, yet we more or less sacrificed the cup a couple of times so that they could play.

If they want to investigate it, fine. Whether they will is, I suppose, dependent on whether they suspect any wrongdoing has been done, or is significant.

You don't recall Ospina's four excellent saves from Costa twice, Kante and Moses, but do the deflected goal he let in! That is the lot of the keeper I guess.

Thinking back though, were any of Ospina's saves in the final those you wouldn't have expected him to have kept out? I'm just trying to be fair. How many saves did he have to make, and were any of those he did keep out those where you wouldn't have expected him to save? That's why I mentioned his time-wasting, which was top notch.

Yes it happens, but every manager has to address the issue of keeping all the players in a squad match fit and motivated?

Do you really think any of those he kept out were really beyond the kind of shots any good keeper should have kept out? You use the word excellent. I think they were shots you would expect your keeper to save, much like the one he let in.

Of the four I mentioned I would say he did brilliantly to cut down Costa's space and stop his powerful first-half hit at a crucial stage of Chelsea pressure. Then in their dominant post-break period he made Kante's deflected shot look routine and also parried Moses drive very well. The other save from Costa at reasonably close range was all about his agility. OK you might say he was doing his job, but I think you rather damn him with faint praise by talking about his time wasting. I do prefer Čech in goal but in that final Ospina was no weak link at all.

Let us disagree!

At that point, Dortmund had a bloody good record against Bayern...and of course Bayern wanted to (and did) buy Dortmund's best players (bar Reus). It also possible that rather than to unsettle the team they may have just done it to urinate on the parade of a rival getting more media love...their intention isn't as important as the fact they did it...which cannot said to be entirely coincidental.

Ah yes...there it is...accusing me of a failing and then doing exactly the same yourself without any sense of irony.

Also my 'unproven rumours' are not that. Gnabry HAS joined Bayern. He has joined them for a fee far below market value. Using a clause that only they could activate. A year after Wenger implied and a number of journalists and unofficial sources said that this was exactly what was going to happen. On the DC site, we wrote that this is what we thought would happen based on the evidence. And it has happened.

Your rumour evidence actually has no outcome to support it in any way, bar Bayern telling anyone who will listen that they want the player, and others concluding that we'd rather sell to them. Sanchez is currently an Arsenal player, is he not?
And frankly, it is also meaningless evidence, because, of course, if they have to sell the player they'd rather sell him to anyone bar a domestic rival if the fee is right. That much is obvious. And there is no way the club would be unwilling to deal with someone they were unhappy with if it is in their best interests. We still sold Alex Song to Barca after they used every dirty trick in the book to get Fabregas and before him tapping up Hleb (so his form plummeted just when we needed him) and before that Petit and Overmars.

What you have said in your post above isn't evidence of anything. In fact it is meaningless.

But god forbid anyone criticise Bayern.

Or who the parties in question are! Fifa as we know, have different rules for every team, hence Athletico Madrid having a transfer ban upheld for far less than Barca or Madrid got theirs postponed until they could conclude all their business for. Also, I doubt Bayern have done anything illegal bar a variation of tapping up that all the biggest teams do, as what I believe they have done with Bremen and the player is not technically illegal, just against accepted practice. It would be much more likely that a slight tweak to the rules comes into force next year.

On the subject of Ospina, he makes good saves look simpler due to his speed off his line and his agility, but he also has some fundamental flaws which means he lets in goals that better keepers wouldn't. Ultimately I think the one at costa's feet Čech might not have made, as thats no longer a strength of his, but our number 1 probably would have saved the goal. Ultimately Ospina is a slightly better Almunia in terms of level. Not as bad as people think, but not at the level of an Arsenal keeper. We've had Kelsey, Wilson, Jennings, Seaman and Lehmann (and now Čech). Ospina isn't as good as Chesney or peak Lukic, but is better than others we've had for a year or two in between or great keepers.

Hi Lom,

Ospina is a brilliant shotstopper with great reactions, speed and bravery but he's on the short side for a PL keeper and does not fill the goal in the way that Čech does or have the presence. He is also far weaker on crosses and punching which unfortunately are not the weaknesses to have in the PL.

That said, he is ideally suited to the Spanish or Italian leagues where his weaknesses are less of an issue and a keeper of his calibre should be fetching a fee of £8-10m.

If the rumours of a fee of £3m are true then its ridiculous, we might as well gift wrap him with a pretty little bow.

I genuinely try to not make out that unproven rumours are anything other than that. I suspect I make far more of an attempt in that respect than you, considering the level of times you strike me as doing it - apart from when they contradict what you have chosen to believe.

You appear to be suggesting that my idea based on rumours I've heard that Arsenal would rather sell to Bayern than a domestic rival is meaningless because he's still an Arsenal player, but then you go on to say they would despite the Gnabry issue because it would be in their best issues. Why not play it both ways? Oh sorry, you already are. I thought I said clearly that I've heard Arsenal would rather sell to Bayern than another English club, but it was only hearsay (or whatever words I used to make that point because it wasn't hearsay). I stand by it, and it appears logical, as you yourself now seem to think it's probably true. If you want to see an example of irony, try looking at your own posts on this. After all the fuss you've made about Bayern, you now seem to be saying that they bent rather than broke the rules. That's why I've said you were or are making too much of something fairly minor. If it happened it doesn't matter that much. as Gnabry presumably wanted to get away and you reckon it cost Arsenal a million quid, or was it Euros? Big deal. I simply don't think it deserved the reaction it got from you about Bayern. I won't call your reaction hysterical, just way over the top.

Perhaps you shouldn't have tried to claim it was to damage Dortmund's chances against Real Madrid then, which is what you did say. Whatever Dortmund's record at the time against Bayern was, and that season Dortmund hadn't beaten Bayern in the Bundesliga, I still cannot accept Bayern did it to increase their chances of facing Real Madrid in the final.

I was away for some holidays so did not look at the internet. Thanks to OMOH and Lom for that wonderful feedback regarding 'top top players incoming'. Lost the impetus to bother arguing it now because obviously I am correct in my views.

OMOH I agree with your views on Ospina in the Cup final. Čech made more than a few mistakes this year and to me looks like he his age is catching up as he is just that split second slower at reaction time. I back Wenger on Ospina in the cup final. He was obviously promised the cup games. It is not Ospinas fault the EPL challenge faded and it should not be presumed that Čech should fill in for the final.

I went to Melbourne to watch Brazil v Argentina. I was impressed by Messi as he just glides around the field.

Good luck to you Brits with negotiating a good deal in the Britexit after the election result. Do pollies not get it that going to the polls early to satisfy their personal ego does not go down well with the electors?

OH before I go what has Wenger done about signing those top top players. Have we had anyone confirm that we bid 150mil for Mbappe or was just that a dream. In case you are wondering WENGER OUT.

Never knew Theresa May posted on here.

We know everything you say and think. There is no privacy. welcome to the way most pollies would like it.

If anyone's not watching the new season of house of cards I recommend it. Spacey is excellent as usual but it seems to be raising the point i said on here the other day which is that we are getting the governments in which we deserve. Moan about trump, the tories, climate change denial etc but we choose these people and give them power. Spacey raises this in an excellent monologue.

Worth a watch

I know we may end up 5th or worse next season but as a football fan I'm anxiously anticipating the upcoming season. It may be the most competitive I've ever seen since I started watching the league. I've never seen more than 3 clubs who could win the title. Back in '99/'00 Man Utd, Arsenal and Leeds. '02, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool. Since Roman and City arrived it was either of those two or Man Utd. Yeah, us and Liverpool flattered a few times but generally it was no more than 3 clubs.

This season. Chelsea, Tottenaham, City for sure, Liverpool, Man Utd could challenge. We round that out. Week to week all the clubs will have to keep pace. Any prolonged slump and you are out. Mourinho will spend big this summer. No doubt about that. The real questions are going to be us and Liverpool. The others have a squad that doesn't need much tinkering. Klopp has to come good. I got a feeling if he doesn't start looking like he can win things the Anfield faithful will start asking questions.

What a wind up that was on Arsenal Twitter earlier, said Arsenal were signing Cent Turan from Beksitas, even quoted Sky Sports news and John Cross, now been removed!

Superb series. I thought it was how one would imagine a Trump Presidency. So many dodgy dealing going on in background, is this too far from the truth?

Just read Liverpool supposedly have provided up to 200 million pounds for Klopp to spend.

How good was Aaron Ramsey last night?

Best player on the pitch, and the Serbs have some good ones.

The problem with the show Steve is that it was initially pre trump so now trump has been elected he has effectively robbed the writers of all their potential storylines as our current reality is far more ridiculous than the corruption showed in the first few series of the show