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Post #513641  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:18 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Before some moan about Xhaka making sideways or back passes all the time, you might wish to take account of this table which indicates he has made the eighth most passes into the final third of the opposition’s half across Europe’s top five leagues this season.

https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/ ... dium=email

I think I posted something a while back about the stats showing Xhaka as our most ‘progressive’ passer. He is the sort of player now who can have 10 good games and make 1 mistake and all that is remembered and talked about by fans and pundits is the mistake.

Xhaka will still be with us next season I’m sure of it

Remarkable to see Messi so high up the list considering he’s the only one who isn’t a holding or central mid. He’s basically doing everything for Barca

Messi has been doing that for several years now. He is effectively an attacking midfielder who scores more goals than most strikers. It is incredibly how badly run Barca have been in the last 3/4 years. Messi has carried them to an absurd degree.

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Post #513642  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:00 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Before some moan about Xhaka making sideways or back passes all the time, you might wish to take account of this table which indicates he has made the eighth most passes into the final third of the opposition’s half across Europe’s top five leagues this season.

https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/ ... dium=email


Here’s a little stat for you.

Since the start of 2016-17, Granit Xhaka has made more individual errors leading to goals (8) than any other outfield player in the Premier League.

I also point you to this weeks Tuesday club titled “bog standard Xhaka” (clue In the title) where they discuss and I quote you “the absolute d******* In the middle of our midfield”


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Post #513643  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:40 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Before some moan about Xhaka making sideways or back passes all the time, you might wish to take account of this table which indicates he has made the eighth most passes into the final third of the opposition’s half across Europe’s top five leagues this season.

https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/ ... dium=email


Here’s a little stat for you.

Since the start of 2016-17, Granit Xhaka has made more individual errors leading to goals (8) than any other outfield player in the Premier League.

I also point you to this weeks Tuesday club titled “bog standard Xhaka” (clue In the title) where they discuss and I quote you “the absolute d******* In the middle of our midfield”

Shows some people are morons then.


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Post #513644  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:44 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

Here’s a little stat for you.

Since the start of 2016-17, Granit Xhaka has made more individual errors leading to goals (8) than any other outfield player in the Premier League.

I also point you to this weeks Tuesday club titled “bog standard Xhaka” (clue In the title) where they discuss and I quote you “the absolute d******* In the middle of our midfield”

Shows some people are morons then.


What about the stats though?

At this stage you have resorted to searching for the minutest possible shred of evidence he’s anything bar a liability.


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Post #513645  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:03 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Shows some people are morons then.


What about the stats though?

At this stage you have resorted to searching for the minutest possible shred of evidence he’s anything bar a liability.

No I’m not. You have repeatedly accused him of passing sideways and backwards. That clearly is UTTER GARBAGE. I couldn’t give a toss what some moronic Tuesday club, whoever they are, says. All you have to do is watch games without blinkered eyes to see he isn’t remotely as bad as some make out.

People should try speaking from a footballing perspective instead of an ‘I am going to moan because I hate him’ perspective.


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Post #513646  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:08 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

What about the stats though?

At this stage you have resorted to searching for the minutest possible shred of evidence he’s anything bar a liability.

No I’m not. You have repeatedly accused him of passing sideways and backwards. That clearly is UTTER GARBAGE. I couldn’t give a toss what some moronic Tuesday club, whoever they are, says. All you have to do is watch games without blinkered eyes to see he isn’t remotely as bad as some make out.

People should try speaking from a footballing perspective instead of an ‘I am going to moan because I hate him’ perspective.


He’s factually the biggest liability in the league. Congratulations


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Post #513647  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:16 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
He’s factually the biggest liability in the league. Congratulations

No he isn’t. Giving away a few goals does not make it a fact as it disregards the positives he brings.


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Post #513648  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:25 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
He’s factually the biggest liability in the league. Congratulations

No he isn’t. Giving away a few goals does not make it a fact as it disregards the positives he brings.

Like what a 30 yarder every 2 seasons

Biggest liability in the league. This is a fact. Surely that speaks volumes. You are wrong again


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Post #513649  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:03 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Like what a 30 yarder every 2 seasons

Biggest liability in the league. This is a fact. Surely that speaks volumes. You are wrong again

Do you even know what a ‘fact’ is? You clearly don’t if you think that is a fact. It is your opinion. No more, no less. Whatever one thinks of your opinion.


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Post #513650  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:04 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Like what a 30 yarder every 2 seasons

Biggest liability in the league. This is a fact. Surely that speaks volumes. You are wrong again

Do you even know what a ‘fact’ is? You clearly don’t if you think that is a fact. It is your opinion. No more, no less. Whatever one thinks of your opinion.

Nope it’s a fact. No other outfield player has made more costly mistakes. Not an opinion a fact.


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Post #513651  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:55 pm 
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Kroenke
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-billionaire-stan-kroenke-wins-215622330.html

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Post #513652  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:20 pm 
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Apparently Sokatris is now telling dressing room Olympiacos players secrets about Arsenal. Same as he told the Arsenal dressing room Olympiacos secrets a year ago.... :14laughter:

And his new team-mates have wasted little time in tapping into his insider knowledge ahead of Thursday night’s rematch.

“He has told us some secrets, but I won’t tell you about any of them,” admitted Olympiacos winger Bruma during an exclusive interview with Goal this week. “It’s between us and Sokratis.

“Of course, he knows Arsenal’s locker room better than anyone.

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Post #513653  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:32 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Nope it’s a fact. No other outfield player has made more costly mistakes. Not an opinion a fact.

The difference here is that I don't think I've seen anyone who rates Xhaka that doesn't acknowledge this, or his other flaws - his lack of mobility, his one-footedness etc. We all know he makes these errors, and we all criticise him when he does.

But I rarely, if ever, see his biggest detractors acknowledge all the things he does well. If you want to call him the biggest liability in the league because of that stat, that's fine. But it's also not an opinion that he's one of the most progressive midfielders in the league, whether it's progressive passing, carrying the ball or getting the ball into the final third. The stats are very clear about that. He simply gets the ball forward to teammates more than almost every other midfielder in the league, year after year. It has come to the point where he can literally have ten excellent performances in a row that goes without comment from most, but as soon as he has a poor game his critics are out in full force. There's a reason why all of his managers seem to rate him so highly.


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Post #513654  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:57 pm 
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[quote="Rich"]https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56325695

Has anyone read about the proposed change to the Champions League to bring 4 more teams in?
There is talk of 2 of the additional 4 places being 'wildcard' based on UEFA co-efficient. Currently that would give Arsenal a very good chance of being that wildcard as one of if not the highest ranked team not to qualify for the champions league.[/quote]
Yes Rich. Two months ago it's been tossed around as a possibility. Expansion of CL instead since that "Big Picture" proposal failed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... added.html

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Post #513655  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:36 pm 
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"There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."

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Post #513656  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:47 pm 
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Rich wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:
This wild card system, is probably the suggestion of the American owners. American professional sides have been using a 'wild card' system for ages.
I personally think the reason is if a globally followed side has a bad season they will still be in the CL. It dilutes the competition and even though we may benefit, I'm against it in principle.

I read in the article is was supposedly being pushed by Van Der Saar the technical director at Ajax and the Juve technical director who also sits higher up on various UEFA boards I think.
Id agree with you that I highly doubt any of the American owners of big clubs would be against it, it secures their income.

The big teams have enough of an advantage with the seeding system. They should at least have to qualify each season! Imagine the system applied this season Liverpool would probably get in even if their putrid run continued and they finished outside the top 10 in the league!

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Post #513657  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:50 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."

Great lines, brilliant song. Amazing hat, ridiculous sideburns!

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Post #513658  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:09 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Nope it’s a fact. No other outfield player has made more costly mistakes. Not an opinion a fact.



But I rarely, if ever, see his biggest detractors acknowledge all the things he does well. If you want to call him the biggest liability in the league because of that stat, that's fine. But it's also not an opinion that he's one of the most progressive midfielders in the league, whether it's progressive passing, carrying the ball or getting the ball into the final third. The stats are very clear about that. He simply gets the ball forward to teammates more than almost every other midfielder in the league, year after year.


This notion he’s the Swiss Andrea Pirlo is such nonsense. His passing isn’t progressive at all and he always passes “safe” usually a pass 20 yards forward to his full back that manipulates his stats. He recycles possession more than any other player and his asssts and goals are poor.

In addition to that he can’t tackle, Is useless in the air, picks up yellows and reds for fun and needs to take 3 touches to bring the ball under control.

The pass he did at the weekend was the worst pass in the history of Arsenal football club. It even beats Lee Dixon lobbing Seaman as there was an element in freakish nature in that, Xhaka however has that right in his locker to do something so stupid.

He’s shite and apart from those on this forum I think many of our fans think likewise, certainly all my arsenal supporting mates agree.


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Post #513659  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:10 pm 
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I see Piers Moron has been sacked.

Such a shame, he’s not at all a complete *%^@


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Post #513660  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:10 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
This notion he’s the Swiss Andrea Pirlo is such nonsense. His passing isn’t progressive at all and he always passes “safe” usually a pass 20 yards forward to his full back that manipulates his stats.

Again, this is simply not true which stats show clearly. Not sure why passing forward to a full back is a negative, or recycling possession. It's a big part of what players in his position is supposed to do. His goals and assists record is comparable to players like Fernandinho, Rodri and Fabinho, players who play a similiar role to him. We usually have five players ahead of him not uncluding full backs, all who are expected to contribute more in the final third than the deepest playing midfielder in the team.

As for the cards, he is prone to pick up yellows, but he has three red cards in his Arsenal career - two in 16/17 and one this season.


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Post #513661  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:18 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
This notion he’s the Swiss Andrea Pirlo is such nonsense. His passing isn’t progressive at all and he always passes “safe” usually a pass 20 yards forward to his full back that manipulates his stats.

Again, this is simply not true which stats show clearly. Not sure why passing forward to a full back is a negative, or recycling possession. It's a big part of what players in his position is supposed to do. His goals and assists record is comparable to players like Fernandinho, Rodri and Fabinho, players who play a similiar role to him. We usually have five players ahead of him not uncluding full backs, all who are expected to contribute more in the final third than the deepest playing midfielder in the team.

As for the cards, he is prone to pick up yellows, but he has three red cards in his Arsenal career - two in 16/17 and one this season.


Hes a complete blunt instrument. After he was booed off if he was decent someone would have come in for him. They didn’t because nobody decent will touch him for a barge pole. Speaks volumes


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Post #513662  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:24 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Do you even know what a ‘fact’ is? You clearly don’t if you think that is a fact. It is your opinion. No more, no less. Whatever one thinks of your opinion.

Nope it’s a fact. No other outfield player has made more costly mistakes. Not an opinion a fact.

No, what you say is an opinion. Just as much as someone saying he’s the eighth best forward thinking midfielder in Europe (which I don’t) because of those stats would be an opinion. Both views (and note my use of the word ‘views’ because that’s what they are) are opinions based on nothing more than one criterion each. What you claim IS NOT a fact. It is not provable. It is no more than your opinion.


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Post #513663  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:29 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Nope it’s a fact. No other outfield player has made more costly mistakes. Not an opinion a fact.

No, what you say is an opinion.


No it’s a fact

stats provided by Opta show no Premier League outfield player has made more errors leading to goals than Xhaka since the start of the 2016-17 season.

That’s a fact, it actually happened. Your making yourself look ridiculous now :laughing7:


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Post #513664  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:31 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Mavropanos is doing well in Germany by all accounts. I wonder what his Arsenal future is?
If he’s not one for us then we need to be getting proper money for him, none of this £5-7m nonsense. If he’s playing regularly and we’ll in the top league of one of the top 3 leagues in Europe and given his age that makes him £20m as a minimum

I think sadly his injury record knocks a couple of millions off that price tag. He's had some injuries again this season (missing around half of Stuttgarts games), but seems to have done really well when he's been fit.


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Post #513665  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:43 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
No, what you say is an opinion.


No it’s a fact

stats provided by Opta show no Premier League outfield player has made more errors leading to goals than Xhaka since the start of the 2016-17 season.

That’s a fact, it actually happened. Your making yourself look ridiculous now :laughing7:

The one thing I would add about 'errors leading to goals' stats is they are very subjective. I'm not debating that Xhaka hasn't made clear errors like the one v Burnley but you could assign major defensive errors to all sorts of goals.

Take last night's West Ham v Leeds game, there was a Leeds player marking Craig Dawson at the corner, he completely lost him and Dawson was totally free to head the 2nd goal - I bet that doesn't go down as an error leading to a goal.

Also the season where De Gea was literally throwing them in the net he was nowhere near the top of the GK errors leading to goals. In Leno's debut season he was attributed with 5 errors leading to goals, I really don't remember that feeling very accurate.


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Post #513666  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:06 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:


Yeah we're owned by a trump supporting, greedy, land grabbing prick, so much better than an evil oligarch.. lol

So great that we can hold the moral high ground whilst the like of chavski *%^@ on us from above for the last 15 yrs.

Can't wait till city take Saka for £100m to pay off some of KSE's debt.

And no KSE did not fund Partey deal, they restructured some of the debt to free up cash already within the club.


Farsenal!

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Post #513667  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:27 pm 
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This is kinda cool...
https://mymodernmet.com/vinyl-album-covers-alex-bartsch/?fbclid=IwAR34tUG_H9QQg5kAF_HLrfH4HkrSTRUj4fwphnfsulKufOv8oiNYrT8kyTA

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Post #513668  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:37 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:

Thinking about doing the same once the pandemic is over, starting with this classic

Image


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Post #513669  Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:44 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
No it’s a fact

stats provided by Opta show no Premier League outfield player has made more errors leading to goals than Xhaka since the start of the 2016-17 season.

That’s a fact, it actually happened. Your making yourself look ridiculous now

Top Gun, if you are using the mistakes leading to goals stat to say it’s a fact that Xhaka is the biggest liability then as Rich explains the definition of what is used to measure that, the gravity of an error, can only be based at least in part on subjectivity. That can only mean it isn’t a fact, surely?

Also, if any aggregate totals are measured since the start of the 2016/17 season, when Xhaka first became an Arsenal player, does it take account of games played, so average mistakes per game compared to everyone else? If not, it could be taken as an inadequate stat.

If you’re having a bit of trouble grasping what I mean, hopefully this will make it clearer. When I was a young kid Arsenal had a useless back-up keeper called Malcolm Webster. But he only played six games, one of which was a clean sheet. In his other five games I bet he gave away fewer goals because of errors than David Seaman did. But David Seaman gave away his goals from errors in 564 games. So it’s not surprising that in 564 games David Seaman gave away more goals from errors than Malcolm Webster did in the five games in which he conceded.

Alongside your alleged fact being based on no more than one single stat for errors leading to goals (which as Rich pointed out are also subjective viewpoints), it can only confirm your fact is a viewpoint. It ignores other criteria that are usable for assessing players, like forward passes in the final third making him the eighth best in Europe. Is it a fact he’s the eighth best midfielder in Europe? No of course it isn’t. Just like it isn’t a fact he’s the worst in England. Both claims would ignore other relevant measures.

In your case it is clearly a very firmly held opinion. But you claim it is a fact, and it isn’t. It’s an opinion, albeit as I said a firmly held one. It is not a fact.


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Post #513670  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:36 am 
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Regarding Rich's and I suppose others have chimed as well, regarding Xhaka. We can do much better. The question is can we meet our goals (top 6, then top 4, etc.) with him in the first XI? We can, because the game is played with 11 men and you can surround a player with others that negate his liabilities to some extent.

So, my question, is do we settle for that? That old saying there are lies, damn lies and statistics come to mind. No player in NBA history has won more championships than Bill Russell. Almost double Michael Jordan's total and I am not sure Russell lost a final, maybe 1. I'm too lazy to look it up, but he's never mentioned in the same conversation as the NBA G.O.A.T. despite Jordan's 6 rings being used as a hammer to anyone who brings up Kobe Bryant, LeBron James or others.

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar has records that may not be equaled in our lifetime but he gets an honorable mention at most for G.O.A.T.

I recall a debate about Gilberto's usefulness, with the majority I think saying he should be replaced. Stats were dragged out for him. Gilberto is one of those Arsenal players that people look back relatively fondly but had mixed opinions while he was playing, despite almost everyone who started in the 'Invincible' era being given legendary status by fans. Xhaka could end up this era's Gilberto but only if we achieve some success.

Xhaka does seem to have some good intangibles you can't really quantify. Tough willed, obviously a leader who the squad likes. I'm also not going to use his error as a reason he's not good enough. He doesn't make those types of blunders often. If it was Mustafi (who I send my best regards to in Germany), it would be apropos, but I think a bit unfair for Xhaka.

As it stands, Xhaka is going to be a fixture in the club buy all indications. So, like Kroenke, nothing we can do about it as fans. I just hope we buy well and surround him with quality.

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Post #513671  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:07 am 
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The real questions in the Xhaka debate are
1. Is he good enough to play for us in the alleged Arteta project. If yes then
2. in the unlikelihood that Arteta succeeds is he good enough for a team challenging for top 4 and the title.

Some might say I might have disclosed my thoughts on Arteta in the way the question is framed. I will concede that.

But exactly the say question can be asked about Willian, Luiz, and a few others.

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Post #513672  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:59 am 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
No it’s a fact

stats provided by Opta show no Premier League outfield player has made more errors leading to goals than Xhaka since the start of the 2016-17 season.

That’s a fact, it actually happened. Your making yourself look ridiculous now

Top Gun, if you are using the mistakes leading to goals stat to say it’s a fact that Xhaka is the biggest liability then as Rich explains the definition of what is used to measure that, the gravity of an error, can only be based at least in part on subjectivity. That can only mean it isn’t a fact, surely?

Also, if any aggregate totals are measured since the start of the 2016/17 season, when Xhaka first became an Arsenal player, does it take account of games played, so average mistakes per game compared to everyone else? If not, it could be taken as an inadequate stat.

If you’re having a bit of trouble grasping what I mean, hopefully this will make it clearer. When I was a young kid Arsenal had a useless back-up keeper called Malcolm Webster. But he only played six games, one of which was a clean sheet. In his other five games I bet he gave away fewer goals because of errors than David Seaman did. But David Seaman gave away his goals from errors in 564 games. So it’s not surprising that in 564 games David Seaman gave away more goals from errors than Malcolm Webster did in the five games in which he conceded.

Alongside your alleged fact being based on no more than one single stat for errors leading to goals (which as Rich pointed out are also subjective viewpoints), it can only confirm your fact is a viewpoint. It ignores other criteria that are usable for assessing players, like forward passes in the final third making him the eighth best in Europe. Is it a fact he’s the eighth best midfielder in Europe? No of course it isn’t. Just like it isn’t a fact he’s the worst in England. Both claims would ignore other relevant measures.

In your case it is clearly a very firmly held opinion. But you claim it is a fact, and it isn’t. It’s an opinion, albeit as I said a firmly held one. It is not a fact.


Not it’s a fact. If you pass the ball to an opposing player in your own penalty area that’s an individual mistake. Xhaka has made more individual mistakes than any other player for the last 4 years. All fact. Not opinion a fact. To ignore it is denying the truth and obvious


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Post #513673  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:20 am 
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Question: since 2016 what player has given away the most penalties in the premier league ?


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Post #513674  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:22 am 
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I'm not going to make more of this than it is but I do worry Martinelli will eventually sour on playing for us long term. Not now but in a couple years.

Problem can be solved with Martinelli playing is favored position and Saka as attacking center mid.

https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/news/gabriel-martinelli-mikel-arteta-arsenal-20018943

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Post #513675  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:36 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Top Gun, if you are using the mistakes leading to goals stat to say it’s a fact that Xhaka is the biggest liability then as Rich explains the definition of what is used to measure that, the gravity of an error, can only be based at least in part on subjectivity. That can only mean it isn’t a fact, surely?

Also, if any aggregate totals are measured since the start of the 2016/17 season, when Xhaka first became an Arsenal player, does it take account of games played, so average mistakes per game compared to everyone else? If not, it could be taken as an inadequate stat.

If you’re having a bit of trouble grasping what I mean, hopefully this will make it clearer. When I was a young kid Arsenal had a useless back-up keeper called Malcolm Webster. But he only played six games, one of which was a clean sheet. In his other five games I bet he gave away fewer goals because of errors than David Seaman did. But David Seaman gave away his goals from errors in 564 games. So it’s not surprising that in 564 games David Seaman gave away more goals from errors than Malcolm Webster did in the five games in which he conceded.

Alongside your alleged fact being based on no more than one single stat for errors leading to goals (which as Rich pointed out are also subjective viewpoints), it can only confirm your fact is a viewpoint. It ignores other criteria that are usable for assessing players, like forward passes in the final third making him the eighth best in Europe. Is it a fact he’s the eighth best midfielder in Europe? No of course it isn’t. Just like it isn’t a fact he’s the worst in England. Both claims would ignore other relevant measures.

In your case it is clearly a very firmly held opinion. But you claim it is a fact, and it isn’t. It’s an opinion, albeit as I said a firmly held one. It is not a fact.

Not it’s a fact. If you pass the ball to an opposing player in your own penalty area that’s an individual mistake. Xhaka has made more individual mistakes than any other player for the last 4 years. All fact. Not opinion a fact. To ignore it is denying the truth and obvious

No it isn’t a fact that alone makes him the countries worst midfielder, as you appear to be claiming. Do you seriously think errors to concede goals, which as Rich points out is a subjective (so non-factual) assessment is the only criterion for measuring a player’s quality? I think you’re on a wind up. Even you must realise that single measure is inadequate. If someone claimed he was the eighth best player in Europe because only seven other players pass the ball forward into the opposition’s final third more, I’m sure you would accept that that alone is an inadequate measure.

Well in the same way the aggregate giving away goals measure is on it’s own equally inadequate. Otherwise, you would have to believe Seaman was a worse keeper than Webster (see my example above).


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Post #513676  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:38 am 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Not it’s a fact. If you pass the ball to an opposing player in your own penalty area that’s an individual mistake. Xhaka has made more individual mistakes than any other player for the last 4 years. All fact. Not opinion a fact. To ignore it is denying the truth and obvious

No it isn’t a fact that alone makes him the countries worst midfielder, as you appear to be claiming. Do you seriously think errors to concede goals, which as Rich points out is a subjective (so non-factual) assessment is the only criterion for measuring a player’s quality? I think you’re on a wind up. Even you must realise that single measure is inadequate. If someone claimed he was the eighth best player in Europe because only seven other players pass the ball forward into the opposition’s final third, I’m sure you would accept that that alone is an inadequate measure.

Well in the same way the aggregate giving away goals measure is on it’s own equally inadequate. Otherwise, you would have to believe Seaman was a worse keeper than Webster (see my example above).


No it’s a fact it’s not subjective. Passing statistics are subjective as the outcome can often not lead to a decisive moment in the game. He’s also given away more penalties than any other player in the same period so do you consider that statistic subjective ?

Your in 28 to 29 years old territory here.


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Post #513677  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:13 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
No it isn’t a fact that alone makes him the countries worst midfielder, as you appear to be claiming. Do you seriously think errors to concede goals, which as Rich points out is a subjective (so non-factual) assessment is the only criterion for measuring a player’s quality? I think you’re on a wind up. Even you must realise that single measure is inadequate. If someone claimed he was the eighth best player in Europe because only seven other players pass the ball forward into the opposition’s final third, I’m sure you would accept that that alone is an inadequate measure.

Well in the same way the aggregate giving away goals measure is on it’s own equally inadequate. Otherwise, you would have to believe Seaman was a worse keeper than Webster (see my example above).


No it’s a fact it’s not subjective. Passing statistics are subjective as the outcome can often not lead to a decisive moment in the game. He’s also given away more penalties than any other player in the same period so do you consider that statistic subjective ?

Your in 28 to 29 years old territory here.

I don’t know what 28 to 29 years old territory means. But what I do know is, as Rich carefully explained, the judgement of errors is subjective. It can’t be a thing else. There’s also enough debate on here about whether penalties should or should not be given to know that is a subjective judgment too.

By the way. It’s practically guaranteed Seaman gave away more goals from errors in his 524 games than Webster did in his six games and one was a clean sheet. Do you think that alone makes Seaman a worse keeper than Webster?


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Post #513678  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:21 am 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

No it’s a fact it’s not subjective. Passing statistics are subjective as the outcome can often not lead to a decisive moment in the game. He’s also given away more penalties than any other player in the same period so do you consider that statistic subjective ?

Your in 28 to 29 years old territory here.

I don’t know what 28 to 29 years old territory means. But what I do know is, as Rich carefully explained, the judgement of errors is subjective. It can’t be a thing else. There’s also enough debate on here about whether penalties should or should not be given to know that is a subjective judgment too.

By the way. It’s practically guaranteed Seaman gave away more goals from errors in his 524 games than Webster did in his six games and one was a clean sheet. Do you think that alone makes Seaman a worse keeper than Webster?


A goalkeepers involvement in a goal is subjective as they could be criticised for everything. An outfield player not.

It’s not subjective that passing to an opposing player in your own box is an individual error. It’s not subjective that ridiculously diving in to take out son in the penalty area in a north London Derby is an individual mistake. It’s not subjective grabbing a player round the neck and getting sent off to cost us a game is an individual mistake.

Your pointing at the sky howling that it’s green rather than blue


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Post #513679  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:29 am 
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Errors leading to goals is difficult to judge. In some instances it is dead easy, Xhaka v Burnley or one would assume, giving away a penalty. But to take that last example, what if a defender plays a no look back-pass that is intercepted and as the GK closes the striker down he gives away the penalty? Is that the GK assigned an error leading to a goal or the defender, or both? Are all own goals considered errors leading to goals, You'd think not as a unlucky deflection can fly in, but if you lob your own GK like Dixon then yes - but there are lots of instances between those two extremes.

Aubameyang's goal v Burnley. Arsenal fans will say wonderful forward play to fool the defender with multiple stepovers and score hard and low at the near post. Burnley fans will probably blame Lowton for allowing Aubameyang inside on his strong foot so easily and partially blame Pope for getting beaten at his near post. But I'm sure that goal won't have an 'error' attributed to it.

Each person is going to view things differently. You could test it this weekend by anyone who cares watching all the goals in the premier league and deciding how many true 'errors leading to goals' there are and see how different the figures are across the forum.

So to bring this back to Xhaka, he has conceded some quite blatant errors leading to goals but to just focus on that when he's had 10 good games prior is a bit unfair. You could argue Pépé was just as guilty for our defeat by missing at least 1 if not 2 quite simple chances to score the winner.
Is Xhaka good enough to start for us to get us in the top 4? Currently no, but if you buy quality players around him of course he can be. Of course I think we can improve on him, and realistically improve rather than an unrealistic option because I could say we could improve on Aubameyang by signing Haaland. Currently he is the 2nd best central midfielder we have and I think he will be with us next season but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be buying someone to push him for his place in the team.


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Post #513680  Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:36 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
A goalkeepers involvement in a goal is subjective as they could be criticised for everything. An outfield player not.

Is this set in stone? Direct from Mount Sinai? I'd love to know your source.

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