Good post Andy.

Half empty, half full .......... I was looking at half-full

So is it not strange that when we have 11 refs from the north-west not one of them declared their support for Man U or Liverpool, despite all being of an age where those two teams were totally dominant in their childhood or their fathers childhood? Born in Manchester yet support Wigan or Altringcham?

Of course the place of birth has far less factor than them being outright incompetent. Arteta was quite right to point out that we had 2 decisions v Villa that we’re given against us on the pitch and deemed not to reach the high bar for clear and obvious errors for var to intervene. Fast forward to Old Trafford and things have done a 180. 3 50/50 decisions in the space of a few days all against us

Lokonga was good on the ball but poor off the ball.
He was up pressing Eriksen their deepest lying midfielder for the first goal. Ødegaard should have been the one pressing Eriksen.

Jesus has 3 yellow cards in 6 games for us.
At City he had 15 yellows in 159 games.

Until I see evidence to the contrary I will maintain we are an easy side to give soft yellow cards to, particularly unproportionally so for things like dissent. I’ve also lost count of the number of games the opposition are allowed a couple of free hacks at us early on for us to them pick up the first yellow card for our first foul.

I think the key to raising our level is a top sweeping CM who 'minds the store' as we say in America. Partey is good. I have continually thought he isn't as good as the reputation he came in with from Atletico. Despite the loss we have a good back 5, we have a good attack. Ødegaard is great, but overall the midfield needs the most work and that missing link is someone who can dominate in front of the back five kill off threats.

Rashford had too many runs off the back line as well. Haaland is gonna run amok from what I saw.

Anyway, its not the end of the world. We now know where we are. And its up to Arteta to have them shake it off and move forward.

One thing I'd love to see in my life time (and I doubt that seriously) is our win-loss record against Man Utd be in our favor.

I do agree with you. Most referees give us cards easily.

That's why half-full, Arteta will fill up his cup

One other strange thing is we’re well used to English players, particularly the England captain being given favourable decisions up and down the league, now we have an England golden boy in Saka and he gets nothing and gets zero protection….and even the pundits just tell him he has to be tougher when he’s kicked! He should/could have had 2 penalties in the last 2 games along with countless others last year and even more players getting away with bookings

I saw some criticism of post game punditry in this country whereby the ‘analysis’ is skewed by the result, or even decent analysis is simply foregoed because as Keane said yesterday ‘you can talk about Arsenal playing well but this is a results business and Man U won’ but then no expansion on that. That’s fine as a starting point but then back that up with examples of how Arsenal didn’t create good enough chances and Man U had a plan to counter and be clinical - if that’s what you think.

The whole X team deserved to win because X team won is insane for people who get paid a lot of money for their expert view on football

Firstly I think it is strange that there’s such a disparity in where referees come from. I also suspect referees may lie about who they support. Mike Dean came from Merseyside and claimed to support Tranmere Rovers. Not impossible as Tranmere do have a few fans, just as it isn’t impossible that Tierney supports Wigan. But the huge majority of football fans from Merseyside support Liverpool and Everton.

Many years ago (I posted it here), because of all the suspicions he hated Arsenal I did some research on the Arsenal games Dean refereed to see what our results were like when he was the ref. The bit that took the time was looking up our opposition. At that point in time he hadn’t refereed a single Arsenal game against Liverpool or Everton. The huge majority of his Arsenal games were against the other big teams in England (Chelsea, Tottenham, the Manchester clubs). While our average points per game was slightly lower than our overall average points per game against everyone, the difference was so slight that considering the more difficult opposition we had for the very large majority of Dean’s games, I don’t think we did badly when he was the ref. If anything, we did quite well with him.

I assume the Premier League relaxed their (presumably unwritten) rule about referees not getting games involving teams from their area as Dean ended up getting Arsenal matches against Liverpool and I imagine Everton. But if that unwritten rule was in place, my guess is it could explain why Tierney started claiming he supported Wigan. Because when he began his refereeing career it was probably in place and any young referee with aspirations to eventually reach the top and get big games will not want to exclude himself from United and City games.

But this is just an add on to my main point. I simply do not believe a London ref will subconsciously favour Arsenal (or Tottenham and Chelsea) more because he’s a southerner, even if he does support one of Leyton Orient, Charlton, Millwall, QPR and the other smaller clubs. Zero chance of it, in my honest opinion. As most London football fans support one of Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham and West Ham, that’s who London based refs are most likely to support and I’d be more concerned about Chelsea, Tottenham or West Ham fans getting Arsenal games than someone from the north. That’s why I strongly suspect you’re trying to make a problem for Arsenal that just isn’t there with this stuff about where referees come from.

The sky coverage is pretty poor really. It’s value is based around souness and Keane acting hard and pretending nothing ever went bad in their careers. Little tactical insight whatsoever just a bunch of dickheads with a microphone and why isn’t there a neutral co commentator for games like that. I always liked Ray Wilkins as co commentator. Offered good insight, Neville is pure hyperbole

Hi Bernard,

I can confirm that Mike Dean is indeed a big Tranmere Rovers fan. There are even videos of him being an 'ultra' and leading the Tranmere fans in song. Whether he also has a soft spot for either Everton or Liverpool, that I don't know.

Thanks john1. As I said, if Tierney is from Salford my guess without looking it up would have been he was a United fan (my next guesses in order would have been City and Bolton). But for all I know, he may well genuinely support Wigan. My guess now would be he probably does.

Morning all,

Reminder that the refs are all corrupt. Playing at old Trafford is like the end of the movie gladiator where Russell Crowe has to fight in the colosseum despite being stabbed as they rigged the whole thing and everyone who works for sky is a Complete tosser.

Manchester United fans from London, your points are not and never will be valid. Your own supporters up north don’t even like you and you were bullied at school.

Um. Yeah that’s about it.

Analysing teams the refs support is pointless as Mike Riley aside the bias is largely unconscious. ie they don’t know they are doing it.

That said having the ref and var bloke from Manchester in a game united are involved with is stupid

You do get Manchester United fans in London but you also get Arsenal and other big London clubs’s fans in the north. There is more chance of getting a Tottenham, Chelsea or West Ham fan refereeing Arsenal games if more referees came from the south than there is by having so many referees coming from the north.

I agree with that it is silly as it leads to suspicion. Unconscious bias? I think incompetence is more likely.

As I mentioned during the game. A pundit said that for 305 straight games at Old Trafford, they have never lost when leading at halftime. This is just one more in a long list of things that suggest bias there. I recall the number of games without them getting a red card at home. It was far more than any other side.

What makes the number of matches without losing while up at half time so incredibly unbelievable is that they had some dire teams. The Moyes year for example. Had this happened from 1992 to say 2002, okay, they were dominating, but the last several years?

Some things in life aren't fair and we just have to accept it. You have to outplay Man Utd at OT so obvious that it doesn't matter what the referee does. I replayed the match we won at Old Trafford winning the league in 2002 and the out and out fouls were ridiculous. They should have had a red card before the first half. The refereeing bias was similar to having a Russian judge for an American gymnastic or skating Olympic final.

You simply have to outplay them beyond the bias. It is what it is to use a well worn phrase these days. Goals. Specifically, unquestionable goals is the only way to leave there with 3 points no matter how biased the refereeing is.

We simply have to do what a toon supporting friend told me once privately after observing the bias on here with some detractors. Move on AG, move on. hahaha

Yep, we’re all *%^@**

https://twitter.com/ngwebayanga/status/ ... ecEJRoi_vg

Sums it up really

The concentration of referees in the northwest isn’t just about who supports which team. This goes back generations. Up until 1930, the first division had been dominated by northern teams, and most of them were from the northwest. The headquarters of the Football League were in Preston. The league was run by northern clubs.

Then Arsenal became champions in 1930 and the hegemony was broken. We went on to dominate the league for the next decade. If the war hadn’t intervened, it’s quite likely we would have dominated the ‘40s. That put a lot noses out of joint oop north. Arsenal were hated up there – we were routinely referred to as ‘lucky’ Arsenal. We were fancy-dans from the soft south. We were London. We called ourselves THE Arsenal!! We had high profile supporters. We had media coverage. Until Chelsea won it once in the '50s and Totts in 1961, we were the only southern team who'd won anything - the only team to threaten them. For that reason, we drew all the fire and flak. We more than any other southern team were routinely singled out for the bile we're still getting from the likes of Neville and Carragher.

It's north v south. Simple as, and we - The Arsenal - have always epitomised the south because until relatively recently, we are the only southern team to win anything. We will never get an equal shake up there.

This is all fact. It’s neither fantasy nor paranoia. It's history. My Grandfather would tell me all about it and so did my old man. It was real. In my opinion, it still is real.

But what difference does it make? Moreover if Chelsea have overtaken us as the most successful London club in recent times, how has it affected them? I still think Manchester United are the most disliked club in England. By a long distance. What harm has it done them?

Let’s not get paranoid about it.

There is a quote from Clattenburg that when he was younger and reffed at Old Trafford he was certain a decision was a goal kick but Roy Keane screamed at him so much he changed his mind and gave the corner.
No doubt that kind of thing went on for years at their ground.

I think stereotypes stick as well. Go and ask the average football fan to describe Arsenal and you’ll hear words such as soft, divers, foreign, don’t like it up ‘em, whingers, mentally weak, past glory etc

I think there is a consistent reason we’re one of the most fouled teams but the most punished with yellow cards - part of that is the type of cynical challenges I’ve seen us make (think a Xhaka pull back) but also because of the above stereotype - a feeling that you’re allowed to get the first few kicks in on us because we don’t like it so it’s fair game.

I think you’re missing the point here Bern. In the north, there is a deeply ingrained and mildly irrational dislike for us which, for the reasons explained, goes back to the ‘30s. It’s institutional and generational. We represent the south. Chelsea are a southern team and will be disliked for that characteristic, but when it comes to the wider topic of football, for most in the north, we – The Arsenal – ARE the south.

I first started going up to the north in the late ‘60s and I was taunted unmercifully for my Arsenal allegiances. I’d like to think that over the years, I’ve given as good as I got to the norvern munkees, but the dislike of The Arsenal is widespread and palpable up there. I started travelling regularly to away games when the AW era started. I was blessed to do several 100% seasons and I’ve copped plenty of abuse, but that’s very different. You expect abuse at football matches. You don’t expect the same level of sneering Arse-related comments at professional and social events - or indeed family gatherings – from people I barely know.

In terms of the treatment we get from Refs, particularly in the north, there was a time under AW when we were head and shoulders above the opposition, so it was quite difficult for them to stitch us up. Since our fall from those lofty heights, we’re easy meat particularly in close games. These days, to borrow Terry Downes quote about boxing in America, you have to knock ‘em out to get a draw.

I think you’re wrong about Man U as well. The Munich crash launched an outpouring of sympathy and strong emotions that carries them to this day. Many football fans may dislike them, probably for their sense of entitlement, but in the wider UK population, they are very well liked. Ireland loves them. They are the UK’s Dallas Cowboys.

Informative and accurate.

One quick point about VAR. I haven't seen the game but I heard Danny Kelly on the radio talking about the ridiculous decision to penalise Ode long after the match Ref had ignored the 'offence' in the lead-up to Martinelli's disallowed goal. He was sent to review by the VAR Ref with what I gather was a clear instruction to give a foul.

We sort of assume that Refs are a team and that they work in concert. But they're not a team. They're a bunch of self-serving prima donnas. They all compete amongst each other for the top games. We all know we get very little from VAR, particulalry at a place like OT. If the VAR Ref can stitch up us AND the match Ref by reversing an on-field decision to make him look weak, it's a nice little Brucie bonus.

Yes this is it. It’s competitive. They know damn well they are stiching up the bloke on the pitch.

Why not just use it for penalty area challenges plus red cards. Nothing else. Unless it’s deemed red VAR can’t over turn the on pitch decision.

Offsides and tackles on the halfway line ? Honestly give me a break.

DHD is right btw

The other ground where we never seem to get decisions historically is Goodison Park for some reason.

I’m not just talking about last season but we just never ever seem to get decisions there or a fair crack. Their players kick us with impunity and we can’t get pens or free kicks. It’s always felt like that for me going back years. Always dread that game when I see it approaching on the calendar

Sorry DHD but while Manchester United are comfortably the club with most fans, I am absolutely certain they are loathed and despised by supporters of other clubs a damn site more than Arsenal. The Munich air crash certainly built their fan base, as did players like Best and later on Beckham. Even that bald git Charlton. Then there was the glory hunters who supported them in the Ferguson years. But if you don’t support them, many hate them and I’m convinced a damn site more than Arsenal.

Took a while to get around to watching the replay but think a lot of the comments I read on here are missing a few points.

Controlling possession is not dominating them. It was obvious from recent weeks that Man U would sit back and play fast counters. And yet we naively gave them soooo much space to run in behind with an extremely high line and players out of position for most of the goals. Subs were badly timed and actually made things worse by weakening the structure and flow even further.

What has been mentioned in here that I agree with is that it doesn’t matter what has happened before or during a match up there. Somehow we find a way to lose.

I’m ok with the pattern of play for the start of the season but there is a significant amount of lessons for the players and manager to be taken from that match. It raised more worries for me than anything.

Next few weeks and October where we play Totts, Liverpool and Man City consecutively will truly show the level of this team.

I’ve seen some chat online that Neville and Carragher hear the discussions between the ref and var when they happen live, obviously the public don’t (but absolutely should!) and they said that Tierney really didn’t want the var referral. Possibly hinting in Tierney mind that he thought it was a 50/50 call in real time and didn’t want to have to rule on it again.

I can understand the human nature of making a decision and feeling a bit uncertain about it and being desperate for it not to lead to anything match defining but being unable to do much about it. As an example how often do you see a corner given which is heavily protested to the extent that the ref must know he’s made a mistake and sure enough a foul for the defending team is found as the corner comes in.

Not seen it said much since the game but Jesus has an unbelievable ability to turn a 30/70 against punt to him in to a ball he wins or wins a free kick, almost exclusively up against much bigger CB. He’s deceptively strong and his body position and early judgement of the flight of the ball is superb. His ability reminds me of someone like Suarez in this respect who was phenomenal as this.

Jesus was running Varane ragged. He was fouled 8 times in the match.

He’s the best striker we’ve had since Van persie for me

Thoughts on the Thursday line up?
Turner, Holding, Tomiyasu, Tierney, Vieira, Nketiah and maybe Nelson and Marquinhos seem to be certain.

Could Tomiyasu and Holding be CB so Cédric comes in at RB?
Lokonga and Xhaka may have to play, if Emile Smith Rowe is fit he might go in to the left 8 role.

How about putting White in at CB with Holding to ensure he knows how to play that position again when called upon. Arteta can say whatever he likes but chasing Rafinho and others instead of a midfielder was a mistake. We are short in that area. It’s his job at stake not mine, so no tears if it unravels.

It’s a shame then that he didn’t do as Michael Oliver did this weekend and actually stick to his original decision.

Mike Riley. Just plain awful. As we all expected. Great description of him in here.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mic- ... 0462b47973

Wow - Saliba was nowhere near him - and boom - straight yellow.

Interesting to note that Declan Rice is still a West Ham player. Credit to him for presumably not pushing to get away. In my view he’s absolutely superb and would walk into the first choice team of all what I see as the top six clubs. That includes Manchester City as well as Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea and Manchester United.

I find it refreshing when great players are loyal to their clubs that aren’t at the very top of the tree. I would include Harry Kane in that, despite Tottenham being a bigger club than West Ham.

VAR increased the magnitude of bias and puts more power into the hands of those in charge.