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Post #472201  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:43 am 
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lomekian wrote:
socrates wrote:
The thing I find most extrarordinary about Wenger's post invincibles years is that there have been so many obvious things that he has simply failed to address, for whatever reason, from the keeper situation to the lack of defensive organisation to the general lack of pace and power in the team. You did not need to be a rocket scientist to see what needed addressing. In many cases these things were not even expensive to address, they just needed the right calibre of coaching staff and time on the training ground.

Maybe twenty years ago Wenger was a visionary but he also had the benefit of a great back four that he inherited, the fact that he had the pick of the french market when they had a conveyor belt of top players and also that he had scouts and contacts in parts of the world that most other premier league sides hadn't even begun to look at. Not to mention that his dietary programmes and stretching routines etc were light years ahead of what most other english clubs were doing at the time.

His general tactical ineptitude, which I argued with people on here about many moons ago, was masked by the fact that tactics wasn't really a huge part of the english game and infact we had a glimpse of his tactical ineptness in european matches. As soon as the premier league began to evolve and we saw better players and more tactically adept managers and clubs began to put worldwide scouting networks in place then we saw the beginnings of Wenger's demise. Basically other teams caught up with and in many cases overtook us and suddenly Wenger's limitations began to be exposed.


Pretty much. He also had inverse financial backing at the time when he had the best team in the country, others hadn't caught up with his methods fully and we were still the club players wanted to come to. His limitations were always going to be exposed in one way or another, but he still had a better eye for a player than most until maybe 2011 ish, but just got outbid on everyone he really wanted. Before that, he had been able to to put on the charm and schmooze the best promising players in Europe....he still kept schmoozing but we got outbid on everyone, and by the time we as a club starting spending again, we had a weaker squad and a manager who had largely been surpassed by the best of his domestic rivals.

I have no doubt that with better backing financially we would have won 3 or 4 more titles and probably a European cup, and as a result he would have left, happy a few years ago. We really were in such a strong position in terms of squad, reputation, scouting and appeal in the early 2000s. 2004 should have been the step to domestic and European domination, but first the board and then later the manager pissed the opportunity away.


That’s a pretty good synopsis lom/ Socrates , for the financial stuff I’d say he had reasonable backing ( in 2005-9 period) to build his squad but chose to go too much towards the socialist wage policy route and the pitfalls and consequences of that-are well documented


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Post #472202  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:45 am 
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lomekian wrote:
Pete on the beach wrote:

Yes time is the issue ; and also how Wenger behaves when he’s gone ; let’s be honest there is a fair chance he will stick his oar in often ; as he doesn’t seem the type to go gracefully , and there are enough AKB lemmings still out there who will do his bidding given the slightest of encouragement ; during the inevitable bad spells any manager will go through .

The situation with Graham has thawed in recent years ( partly due to the Wenger saga) bearing in mind that not only did he take the bung he also went onto manage on the dark side for a while. So yes time is a great healer . How I answer when asked about how I will view Wenger when he goes is “ give me 2 years from that point and i’ll answer properly” so yes that is the way to go imo


For sure. Ultimately, we'll probably remember the great teams more than the piss poor ones - because he will be indelibly linked with club legends like Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp etc....whereas the rubbish like Silvestre, Chamakh etc will be forgotten much sooner. But it might take more than 2 years.

I think even now, most of us feel similarly....he was a source of immense joy for a period of time, a nearly man against significant odds for another similar length of time and then a man who stayed when he should have left. Staying after the cup final win will damage his reputation because had he gone then he would have been 'a guy who couldn't cut it anymore at the absolute top level, but could still win the odd thing and pull a great performance out'....now he's more like the mad old uncle who has lost their marbles and keeps making Christmas a nightmare in the eyes of many. He and the team are so diminished that there is sadness as well as frustration and anger, because the next course of action is so obvious that we are left speculating WHY? Why haven't they replaced him? Why hasn't he resigned? Why do great players want to come here at all?


The two years is more for my own reflective view to start sort the anger and contempt out, not where the club or teamwill be,

also I’m not sure in what capacity i’ll Return in. Like daz with the bees, I’ve gained a real affection for BHA over the past couple of years, and love the way the fans and club are one entity due to what the club went through 20 years ago , so I won’t just turn that off and could well have two teams.

Just hope to god the last phase you mention doesn’t go into next season , although with Wenger it ain’t over till it’s over


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Post #472203  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:58 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:

:15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter:

Was it Mustafi's kid ?


Koscielny is the word


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Post #472204  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:01 pm 
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He's running the football club down. I don't know how many more podcasts, blogs or newspaper articles can be written about it.

3 titles in 22 years, Arsene Wenger has been a disaster for Arsenal.


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Post #472205  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Pete on the beach wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

:15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter:

Was it Mustafi's kid ?


Koscielny is the word


I like Koscielny, good player for arsenal and the recent criticism is unjust. It's Wengers recipe and screaming at an ageing 32 year old centre half is ridiculous

The rumour yesterday was that Lord Harris offered his resignation to the board Pete to force their hand. It was declined. Several people in the know were saying this yesterday.


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Post #472206  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Pete on the beach wrote:
lomekian wrote:

Pretty much. He also had inverse financial backing at the time when he had the best team in the country, others hadn't caught up with his methods fully and we were still the club players wanted to come to. His limitations were always going to be exposed in one way or another, but he still had a better eye for a player than most until maybe 2011 ish, but just got outbid on everyone he really wanted. Before that, he had been able to to put on the charm and schmooze the best promising players in Europe....he still kept schmoozing but we got outbid on everyone, and by the time we as a club starting spending again, we had a weaker squad and a manager who had largely been surpassed by the best of his domestic rivals.

I have no doubt that with better backing financially we would have won 3 or 4 more titles and probably a European cup, and as a result he would have left, happy a few years ago. We really were in such a strong position in terms of squad, reputation, scouting and appeal in the early 2000s. 2004 should have been the step to domestic and European domination, but first the board and then later the manager pissed the opportunity away.


That’s a pretty good synopsis lom/ Socrates , for the financial stuff I’d say he had reasonable backing ( in 2005-9 period) to build his squad but chose to go too much towards the socialist wage policy route and the pitfalls and consequences of that-are well documented


05-09 the lack of financial backing was almost crippling, and it had nothing to do with the wage structure.
I'm not talking about him choosing to divvy up a spare £15m budget between squad players or buy another squad member as you are. I'm talking about at at time when initially the stadium costs and then the financial crash meant that quite apart from any wage structure failings, we had a zero transfer spend on average over a 7-8 year period, and wage increases to the lesser players being offset by letting the best paid go. If you look at the finances, we genuinely become a stagnant club financially while transfers and wages were accelerating hugely...and not one board member put any money into the club to invest in the playing staff at time of strength.

We all know Wenger was resistant to throwing money at the problem, but he was gazzumped on nearly every main transfer target during that period, EVEN WHEN DEIN was still around and happy to force his hand in terms of transfer decision making.

Of course, Wenger could have kicked off and demanded more money, but there certainly wasn't any encouragement from the board to spend until may 2009/2010 ish at the earliest. If they had invested at that time the club's commercial outlook would be totally different now as well. Its particularly frustrating as the cash issue hastened the departure of outgoing greats, and yet we still had a good team that genuinely wasn't far off then.

Sadly by the time the purse strings were loosened, and the club managed to start turning a proper profit, the manager had lost his mojo, and his contemporaries had all improved.

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Post #472207  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:06 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
3 titles in 22 years, Arsene Wenger has been a disaster for Arsenal.


What a load of crap! Yes he is passed his sell by date by he has done wonders for the club.

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Post #472208  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Gunfire wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
3 titles in 22 years, Arsene Wenger has been a disaster for Arsenal.


What a load of crap! Yes he is passed his sell by date by he has done wonders for the club.

Wonders ? Oh do *%^@ off

He's *%^@ and his 3 titles are long forgotten.

George won 2.

Wonders


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Post #472209  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Interesting comment below at end of Kevin whitcher’s OG piece the other night

“Wenger looks weak.. his players take the piss out of him. There were players in a night club on Saturday night before the final. Raheem sterling arranged it. I seriously think Wenger found out and was berating pep about it. How this story hasn’t broken I just don’t ****ing know !!”

This could be what Wenger was in peps ear about the other night ,


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Post #472210  Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Pete on the beach wrote:
Interesting comment below at end of Kevin whitcher’s OG piece the other night

“Wenger looks weak.. his players take the piss out of him. There were players in a night club on Saturday night before the final. Raheem sterling arranged it. I seriously think Wenger found out and was berating pep about it. How this story hasn’t broken I just don’t ****ing know !!”

This could be what Wenger was in peps ear about the other night ,


Moaning at Pep. They are his players.

If it's sterling you would have to assume it's jack and maybe Iwobi being talked about


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Post #472211  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:34 am 
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First of all Bernard do you never sleep. It must be late in the UK.

Now for those who are asking how long before we forgive Wenger after he goes.
Well my family immigrated here around 1860. We still don’t barrack for England in anything. Let’s call it a round 200 years before I forgive. In reality at least 20 years .

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Post #472212  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:58 am 
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Pete on the beach wrote:
Interesting comment below at end of Kevin whitcher’s OG piece the other night

“Wenger looks weak.. his players take the piss out of him. There were players in a night club on Saturday night before the final. Raheem sterling arranged it. I seriously think Wenger found out and was berating pep about it. How this story hasn’t broken I just don’t ****ing know !!”

This could be what Wenger was in peps ear about the other night ,

Wenger is bang out of order if he had words with Pep. First, he has no proof Pep arranged it. Second, his players didn't have to attend. Henry, for example, didn't drink at clubs or go out night before matches.

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Post #472213  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:00 am 
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Rich wrote:
socrates wrote:
The thing I find most extrarordinary about Wenger's post invincibles years is that there have been so many obvious things that he has simply failed to address, for whatever reason, from the keeper situation to the lack of defensive organisation to the general lack of pace and power in the team. You did not need to be a rocket scientist to see what needed addressing. In many cases these things were not even expensive to address, they just needed the right calibre of coaching staff and time on the training ground.

Maybe twenty years ago Wenger was a visionary but he also had the benefit of a great back four that he inherited, the fact that he had the pick of the french market when they had a conveyor belt of top players and also that he had scouts and contacts in parts of the world that most other premier league sides hadn't even begun to look at. Not to mention that his dietary programmes and stretching routines etc were light years ahead of what most other english clubs were doing at the time.

His general tactical ineptitude, which I argued with people on here about many moons ago, was masked by the fact that tactics wasn't really a huge part of the english game and infact we had a glimpse of his tactical ineptness in european matches. As soon as the premier league began to evolve and we saw better players and more tactically adept managers and clubs began to put worldwide scouting networks in place then we saw the beginnings of Wenger's demise. Basically other teams caught up with and in many cases overtook us and suddenly Wenger's limitations began to be exposed.

The biggest one for me is the lack of a holding defensive midfielder once Gilberto left.
Wenger has had pace in the team but they just weren’t good enough footballers and/or had poor end product.
He also thought he had solved he gk problem with Čech - who I think we all thought was a great signing at the time.
The lack of a proper defensive mid, with a defensive mindset and good anticipation for danger has really held us back.


Totally agree on a lack of a proper defensive mid. I'm hard pressed to name a top club competing for a title that doesn't have a top quality defensive center mid.

Wenger came to fame partially on Vieira. Why we haven't spent big on a DCM or defender is beyond me.

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Post #472214  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:18 am 
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If Klopp can manage runner up, I'd vote for him for manager of the year. Losing Coutinho, their quarterback, very instrumental in January and are now second (Man Utd a game in hand) is great managing not just on the pitch but in belief. We lose Sanchez and are now seemingly weaker mentally, they lose Coutinho and are playing with belief.
The surprise for me is that Tottenham aren't further up the table. They were supposed to be challenging for the title this season. They are not even a lock for CL football next season. Although I would be surprised a wee bit they don't edge out Chelsea for 4th.

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Post #472215  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:35 am 
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BHA 1 Arsenal 0. Özil will dribble and dribble and dribble, till all the openings are closed up. Then, he will find someone on the edge of the box, likely Ramsey. Ramsey will twist & turn and lose the ball, then fall and stay down for half a minute. But the play goes on, and Xhaka will attempt a weak tackle, gets nothing out of it, then watch as play moves closer to our penalty area. That's when Kolasinec decides to run into the centre, instead of watching his man. The pass goes to the right winger, who runs at our defence, and falls in the penalty area, at the slightest touch. Penalty, and Čech saves the penalty. Oops, I meant Čech continues with his "can't save penalty" record and remains at 199 cleansheets. Then our wonderful "3 titles in 22 years manager", will moan at the 4th official. But secretly he puts down in his notebook, his excuse for another defeat. The BHA right winger saved his blushes for the day. He created a ready excuse for his press conference. Another good day at the office for Wenger.

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Post #472216  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:04 am 
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Just finished watching a replay of the Man City league match. Specifically the time period up to the first two goals. We didn't shy away from them to some extent. We tried. Both of their goals were class. Lets put that specific match in its proper perspective and proper context. We were outclassed. We simply aren't near their level and the table tells that tale.
We had a couple good chances prior to and inbetween their first 2 goals. In matches like that you MUST take your chances. They are the EPLs equivalent of Barcelona this season. Pep has finally (via bottomless financial resources) gotten the mix he wants and he has the bench he wants to be able to rotate without losing much in quality.
Where we are is not going to be measured by a loss to a club that will likely break the EPLs points in a season record but against the rest of the league. A draw would have been a victory sadly as it sounds for the City match. A win would literally have taken a herculean effort. Wigan and such squads can sneak a win because you can't get that level of pro up mentally for an away match to Wigan. Not all the time.

How we do against Brighton will be more telling. The list of the remaining league fixtures

Brighton (a), Watford, Leicester (a), Stoke, Soton, Newcastle (a), West Ham, Man Utd (a), Burnley, Huddersfield (a)

We can win 7 of those matches. Maybe we won't but they are winnable based on what I see about us. How that plays with Chelsea and CL places may not do any good but we can play well for the rest of theseason. If we get eke out a draw at OT, that would be a victory in of itself.

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Post #472217  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:28 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
If Klopp can manage runner up, I'd vote for him for manager of the year. Losing Coutinho, their quarterback, very instrumental in January and are now second (Man Utd a game in hand) is great managing not just on the pitch but in belief. We lose Sanchez and are now seemingly weaker mentally, they lose Coutinho and are playing with belief.
The surprise for me is that Tottenham aren't further up the table. They were supposed to be challenging for the title this season. They are not even a lock for CL football next season. Although I would be surprised a wee bit they don't edge out Chelsea for 4th.

Manager of the season for coming second? Ironic.

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Post #472218  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:00 am 

Gaz from Oz wrote:
First of all Bernard do you never sleep. It must be late in the UK.

I watched Match of the Day which finished just before midnight. Had a quick look at the forum to see if anything had been written since I'd last seen it. Read the new posts that had been written, then went to bed after all the undressing, brushing teeth, having a wee sort of stuff. Had a quick look at the clock as I got into bed and it was 12.13am. Not that late, is it?


  
 
 
Post #472219  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:09 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
First of all Bernard do you never sleep. It must be late in the UK.

Now for those who are asking how long before we forgive Wenger after he goes.
Well my family immigrated here around 1860. We still don’t barrack for England in anything. Let’s call it a round 200 years before I forgive. In reality at least 20 years .

I have no love for English teams ... but that irritating Ozzie implacability is most grating. I find myself supporting anyone who is playing against them.

Even the sorry Proteas ... :laughing7:

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Post #472220  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:14 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
The surprise for me is that Tottenham aren't further up the table. They were supposed to be challenging for the title this season. They are not even a lock for CL football next season. Although I would be surprised a wee bit they don't edge out Chelsea for 4th.

It shouldn't be so hard for you to figure out. Its pretty hard to break into the European elite. And there are three members of this club in the EPL.

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Post #472221  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:16 am 
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Amla out. That's the signal for the procession to begin. :sad5: :sad5: :icon_silent: :icon_silent: :icon_sad1:

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Post #472222  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:32 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
First of all Bernard do you never sleep. It must be late in the UK.

I watched Match of the Day which finished just before midnight. Had a quick look at the forum to see if anything had been written since I'd last seen it. Read the new posts that had been written, then went to bed after all the undressing, brushing teeth, having a wee sort of stuff. Had a quick look at the clock as I got into bed and it was 12.13am. Not that late, is it?

You are correct not as late as I suspected. Since I retired I have slept longer. Probably less worry.

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Post #472223  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:34 am 

Decaf wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:
The surprise for me is that Tottenham aren't further up the table. They were supposed to be challenging for the title this season. They are not even a lock for CL football next season. Although I would be surprised a wee bit they don't edge out Chelsea for 4th.

It shouldn't be so hard for you to figure out. Its pretty hard to break into the European elite. And there are three members of this club in the EPL.

Playing at Wembley rather than White Hart Lane, it was always likely Tottenham would drop more home points this season. From memory they started the season poorly at home, so I'm sure they must have. Although they've improved at home recently, I don't consider it that big a surprise they're not further up the table.


  
 
 
Post #472224  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:35 am 
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Decaf wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
First of all Bernard do you never sleep. It must be late in the UK.

Now for those who are asking how long before we forgive Wenger after he goes.
Well my family immigrated here around 1860. We still don’t barrack for England in anything. Let’s call it a round 200 years before I forgive. In reality at least 20 years .

I have no love for English teams ... but that irritating Ozzie implacability is most grating. I find myself supporting anyone who is playing against them.

Even the sorry Proteas ... :laughing7:

I prefer everyone to be against us. It is better if we win because you know for sure the whole world is miserable while you are overjoyed. There is a quiet satisfaction in that.

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Post #472225  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:11 am 
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I don't see Pep dominating like he did in Spain and Germany. In Spain he only had one other side basically that could compete. In Germany, no one else could but in the EPL he has Chelsea and Man Utd who can spend similar to him. And in Liverpool and Tottenham sides that can also push him. He certainly won't dominate as Ferguson did int the '90s and early 00s.

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Post #472226  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:28 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Well my family immigrated here around 1860. We still don’t barrack for England in anything. Let’s call it a round 200 years before I forgive. In reality at least 20 years .


Blimey.

I don't hold it against Aussie sportsmen like Eddie Jones or Mitchell Starc that their ancestors had scant regard for the notion of private property and fell foul of our judicial system 200 years ago.

I just think they're *%^@.


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Post #472227  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:48 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Decaf wrote:
I have no love for English teams ... but that irritating Ozzie implacability is most grating. I find myself supporting anyone who is playing against them.

Even the sorry Proteas ... :laughing7:

I prefer everyone to be against us. It is better if we win because you know for sure the whole world is miserable while you are overjoyed. There is a quiet satisfaction in that.


Oh yes, you guys are always very quiet about your satisfaction when you win. You're admired the world over for your self-effacing reticence in that regard.


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Post #472228  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:50 am 
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And you NEVER whinge - that's us obviously.


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Post #472229  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:16 am 
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David Seaman saying he expects Wenger to see out his contract rather than leaving in the summer.

I honestly can't imagine or envisage another season like this one. Really hope Brighton get a result today.


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Post #472230  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:26 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
First of all Bernard do you never sleep. It must be late in the UK.

I watched Match of the Day which finished just before midnight. Had a quick look at the forum to see if anything had been written since I'd last seen it. Read the new posts that had been written, then went to bed after all the undressing, brushing teeth, having a wee sort of stuff. Had a quick look at the clock as I got into bed and it was 12.13am. Not that late, is it?

The rest of your post doesn't exactly get the pulse racing or stimulate the imagination ... but what is "having a wee sort of stuff"?

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Post #472231  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:32 am 
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Daz wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
I prefer everyone to be against us. It is better if we win because you know for sure the whole world is miserable while you are overjoyed. There is a quiet satisfaction in that.


Oh yes, you guys are always very quiet about your satisfaction when you win. You're admired the world over for your self-effacing reticence in that regard.

Indeed. The likes of Ponting and Warner are almost effeminate.

SA in the 'nervous 90s' now. Can they get to 100?

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Post #472232  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:35 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
I don't see Pep dominating like he did in Spain and Germany. In Spain he only had one other side basically that could compete. In Germany, no one else could but in the EPL he has Chelsea and Man Utd who can spend similar to him. And in Liverpool and Tottenham sides that can also push him. He certainly won't dominate as Ferguson did int the '90s and early 00s.

Really?

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Post #472233  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:44 am 
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We may have one big domestic game left in us for the rest of the season and it would have to be at Old Trafford. Fingers crossed.

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Post #472234  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:46 am 
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Watching goals on Sunday, hate to admit it but Spurs are a good side and rightly 13 points ahead of us.


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Post #472235  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:50 am 

Decaf wrote:
Bernard wrote:
I watched Match of the Day which finished just before midnight. Had a quick look at the forum to see if anything had been written since I'd last seen it. Read the new posts that had been written, then went to bed after all the undressing, brushing teeth, having a wee sort of stuff. Had a quick look at the clock as I got into bed and it was 12.13am. Not that late, is it?

The rest of your post doesn't exactly get the pulse racing or stimulate the imagination ... but what is "having a wee sort of stuff"?

It wasn't just related to having a wee. Putting the worn clothes in the wash basket, washing hands. That sort of thing. I wasn't intending to give a precise description of everything I did between the end of MOTD and getting into bed.


  
 
 
Post #472236  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:39 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
David Seaman saying he expects Wenger to see out his contract rather than leaving in the summer.

I honestly can't imagine or envisage another season like this one. Really hope Brighton get a result today.


Me too but I don't think they will this is the kind of game we win and then Wenger goes all holier-than-thou.

Maybe he'll tell us again how many offers he turned down ten years ago.


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Post #472237  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Čech, Chambers, Kolašinac, Koscielny, Mustafi, Xhaka, Mkhitaryan, Wilshere, Özil, Iwobi, Aubameyang

Hoping Bellerin is just being rested ahead of the European games. Chambers could get roasted by any left winger in the league


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Post #472238  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:38 pm 
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1 down already.

Arsene looks shocked ?


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Post #472239  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:38 pm 
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LOL


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Post #472240  Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:38 pm 
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still think we will win though


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