Guendouzi will probably face retrospective action for grabbing Maupay by the throat at the end fog this game, even if Maupay did throw himself to the floor.

We spent a lot for us but it’s not really comparable to Man U. They’re paying Sanchez £500k a week to play for another team and have spent £1 billion on transfers over the last 7 seasons.

We have spent an awful lot in recent seasons and we have a very high wage bill. United have spent more in both respects, which is understandable. When Ferguson was manager, they were pissed off if they didn't win the leagie. These days they have set their target at 4th.

I agree. I was embarrassed that we carried on about it. If a keeper can’t put up with a few minor fouls he is not up to it. All the afters relating to it displayed the total lack of mental toughness in our side. The players were looking at a way of deflecting away from their terrible performance. The thought process is pathetic; let us pretend that it was the Leno injury that cost us the game. It didn’t: indeed look at all the saves Martinez had to make. Look at our failure to make clear chances. As for the Martinelli situation I think Arteta is starting to look out of his depth.

Arteta has a difficult task to do with creating leaders and then those leaders developing game management. You’d hope most players have a sense of in game management but ours don’t so there needs to be strong leaders to cajole those around them. We don’t have leaders. Players can develop in to leaders but there has to be something in there to start with. I can’t see it anywhere

I agree with Gaz a bit.

Martinelli, Aubameyang, Pépé

That’s your front 3 Mikel, it’s as clear as day so stop *%^@*** about. If we need a goal from nothing it’s only coming from one of those 3 players and any other combination is lop sided. Use Saka sparingly by all means but you need PEA central and the 2 young players wide.

Also by playing Nketiah and willock it’s cutting off your nose to spite your face. It’s frustrating we have players in our squad with attitude problems or an eye elsewhere but those 2 guys simply aren’t ready for this level. By all means play them but they aren’t ready to win games in the premier league week in week out so you are sacrificing points.

My anger with the Leno injury is not because of any intent to injure but the fact the ball was not there to be won. It isn’t like a late tackle between two outfield players. Maupay tried to push Leno out of the box to claim a handball, of course 99 time out of 100 its innocuous and play restarts with a free kick, but taking a player out when they’re in the air leaves it open to the freak injury. I see it when strikers chasing defenders back towards their gk frustratingly push the defender in to the o rushing gk, I’m sure we lost a player to injury to this as well.
Rugby has seen the danger in taking a player out in the air and it is an instant penalty, yellow or red card no matter the maliciousness or intent or lack of injury. Gk’s are rightly protected by refs when they go up for a ball in the air because their arms aren’t their to protect themselves or brace a fall.
Of course it isn’t the reason we lost the game but it also can’t be excused because there was no intent to injure. You take responsibility for your actions and the safety of other players. Leno was rightly annoyed as he knows he’ll be out of the game for 6 months or longer solely because of Maupay’s unnecessary foul for a ball that simply couldn’t be won

Agreed. And it’s the basis for the front 3 moving forward, without lacazette and likely without Aubameyang- so stick with Pépé and Martinelli and buy a striker or left winger to compliment the other two

What is the current thinking on Guendouzi? Sometimes it feels like he thinks his petulance and winding up the opposition is part of his role and enhances the way he plays.
I think he’s had a tough season, which is not surprising for someone so young in such a dysfunctional team.
I don’t think he’s at the level to play for us at the moment, I can picture him in a strong powerful team full of leaders who position and talk to him and he can be the youthful ball of energy. But at the momentous a long way from that sort of team and his immaturity is being exposed.

Last summer I suggested every player had his price and I’d accept £40-50m from psg if they were bidding. He had a couple of games earlier this season where he really drove us forward and looked excellent, the saviour, but looking back it was the disorganised chaos of the team desperately chasing the game that played right in to his strength.

I’d certainly view Guendouzi differently if our first choice midfield was peak Vieira and petit. So he’s worth persevering with, my biggest worry is his lack of pace and mobility coupled with a bit of a lack of awareness and positional sense. If you don’t have the first two you must have the second two.

Reagan calling Thatcher to apologize for invading Grenada without us telling her. Surprisingly the 80s was the most peaceful decade in US history since WW2.

The human equivalent of a red setter.

He has a fighting attitude but I haven’t seen much evidence to suggest he’s technically good enough to play in the centre of a side good enough to compete. His distribution is pretty basic, he has little range or speed in his distribution and it’s a feature affecting our ability to create chances. I think he needs a loan to get experience with willock and Nketiah

That said I think this is the worst midfield we have had for years. They can’t control or dominate any midfield battle with any team in the league. We would give our right arms for even a player like Diaby or Rosicky never mind Vieira or Petit

Hi Rich,

When Guendouzi first burst onto the scene I thought he was destined for great things. His confidence and energy combined with decent technical ability was a breath of fresh air for someone so young and it seemed he was headed for the top. Yes, he was raw and needed to gain some strength and sort out the positional side of his game, tracking runners being a good example, but generally the tools looked to be there for him to evolve into a top player.

The last season has been a disappointment and if anything he has gone backwards. That youthful exhuberance has been replaced with a cynical and snidey side which sees him more concerned with winding up the opposition and their fans than concentrating on his own game. One or two off-field issues has added to the sense that his lack of maturity is a problem.

I feel like his lack of pace and power, like so many of our central midfielders, is an issue and I do wonder what his best position is.

He does have talent, though, and I do think that to sell him now, except for an offer too good to refuse, would be a little premature.

I rate Guendouzi very, very highly. His long and short passing are both good. His energy is remarkable and is thus able to make himself available for passes, and he competes. I wouldn’t dream of accepting a £40-50m offer for him as I think he could well end up worth twice that.

Many of us devote so much energy to players we’d get rid of or buy. Who we’d like as head coach. A smaller number, with you being the clearest example since Lomekian no longer posts, target refereeing decisions. I do it myself. As I’ve said it’s what fans of all clubs of all sizes do, so I’m not suggesting we should stop. But such issues are not the main problems facing Arsenal. You touched on what is yesterday. It is Kroenke’s ownership and until he goes, I can’t see much changing however much we talk about players, the coach, team selection, referees, and so on.

Does anyone seriously think Stan will fund the sort of turnover in the squad that’s arguably needed? In my view, there’s a two word answer however much money we get for players sold. No chance. With a personal fortune of ten bleed’n billion I bet there are loads of clubs counted as financially doped with less wealthy owners than Arsenal. He is not ambitious for success on the pitch. Didn’t Zed said say something like we’re an investment for him? If not, apologies. But KSE owns an English Premier League team. He likes that, it’s good for the appearance of his investment portfolio. Whether it wins anything is immaterial.

As I suggested the other day, he could buy Bayern bloody Munich or Glasgow sodding Celtic and the main beneficiaries would be, respectively, Dortmund and Rangers. I realise we can’t spend all day only taking about Kroenke. It would make the forum boring. But regarding the fortunes of the club, I honestly believe Stan is way more important than what players we buy and sell, team selection, the head coach, refereeing decisions and so on. We might as well talk about whether cheese on toast is better with mature or mild cheddar.

Heard there was a strange incident yesterday to do with subs. Teams are allowed 5 subs but are only allowed to make them on 3 occasions.
Martinez coming on was number 1. Then I think arsenal wanted to make a double change, someone and Tierney, but the 4th official wouldn’t let Tierney on at the same time so arsenal couldn’t do Tierney on as they’d be restricted to those 3 individual subs. They had to make a triple change much later on.

Definitely mature cheddar and with lashings of Worcestershire sauce!

If we assume after 3 years of Pep as a tutor that Arteta wants to follow the Pep style and philosophy and by effect mimic the way city play you would need to look at our current squad and ask how many of the players are capable of playing that way? Obviously not many are, they are top class players but I’m thinking about our players who just fit the mould even if they are a tier lower.
Ball playing gk? Leno is decent and I’m happy with him but his distribution is not on Neuer and Ederson level

Defenders playing with a high line, ball playing ability and recovery pace? No-one in the squad fits that

Full backs, pace, very comfortable on the ball to tuck inside and play in midfield? Bellerin and Tierney could potentially do this. Pep would be moulding Saka as a left back in his system I reckon

Holding mid with ultimate positional and discipline, a capable CB, brilliant one touch? No

Central mids with creativity, drive, control? No

Wide men who spread the play but get in the box and score lots? Pépé, Martinelli there is potential

Striker, pressing, hold up and link play, stretch defences? Not certain Aubameyang or Lacazette are suited to this role. Pep would have Aubameyang playing wide left in his team I’m sure, he did it with Henry at Barca.

Mature cheddar all day long.....

When we restarted there was an outside chance we could snatch 5th and potential champions league. I had and still have no doubt that the team above us would drop enough points to let us in - I also have no doubt that we won't be good enough to capitalise.
Exactly as last year when Spurs and Chelsea were almost falling over themselves to not finish in the top 4 only for us to only get 4 points from our last 5 games

The more I think about it the more obvious it is that we are simply a mid table side. This is our level right now. Massive rebuild job for Arteta on limited funds.

Also, read our midfield combined has scored only one goal this season in the league. The most dysfunctional midfield we’ve had since the last days of George Graham’s reign. Allowing Ramsey to leave on a free was rank stupidity.

Going to be years before we’re able to mount a genuine challenge without strong support from above.

I always liked Giroud. Other fans seemed to rate him more than gooners did. I've always felt he was blamed for not being RvP .He was obviously a different type of player. He was criticized for things that were never in his locker like his pace. Chelsea fans are still laughing at the deal they got.

Apparently FFP is being relaxed due to Covid-19, if ever there was an opportune moment to invest in to this squad it’s now. I won’t hold my breath

The eye opening moment when I reached this conclusion was when we played Leicester away last season I think. I counted 6 Leicester players who easily walk straight into our side. Knew we were in trouble.

Your absolutely right we are an average mid table side. This is the worst side we have had since 94/95 and I think our current midfield is worse than the one that side had.

Hi Bern,
Henry through Fenway Sports, which is a sports conglomerate for Henry's principal ownership of Liverpool, etc. Even so, Fenway Sports seems to better manage financially all aspects of their sports enterprises. Kroenke as sole Arsenal owner appears to allow the club to be mismanaged.

If we hadn’t sold them Ox would be running our central midfield and Iwobi would be our creative 10. Both by some distance!

Enjoyed watching Saint-Maximin for Newcastle this afternoon. He’s a threat every time he’s on the ball, strong, tenacious, direct, pact, skillful and a terrific work ethic.

Hi Zed. I’m certainly not arguing with your view that Fenway seem to manage their sports concerns than Kroenke. Look, I don’t follow American sports. I’ve heard of the bigger clubs like New York 49ers, the Boston Celtics, Boston Red Sox, Philadelphia Flyers and now the LA Rams who I know are owned by KSE. But I must admit I couldn’t even tell you with any certainty what sports they play. From watching the old US sitcom Cheers many years ago, set in Boston, I think the Boston Celtics were ice hockey. But I’m not absolutely certain.

However, what is perfectly obvious to me is that Fenway run Liverpool way better and with far more ambition than Kroenke runs Arsenal.

EDIT: I just looked them up. The Boston Celtics are basketball not ice hockey. Didn’t the character Sam Malone, the bar owner in Cheers, used to play for them?

ANOTHER EDIT: I just up looked Cheers on Wikipedia. It says the bar owner Sam Malone (played by the actor Ted Danson) used to play for Boston Red Sox. Sorry, I thought it was the Boston Celtics.

I was curious how the time off would affect Liverpool. Had the season not been interrupted they would have likely rolled over Everton. They were that unstoppable. They will win the title assuredly. No doubt whatsoever on that but they may drop more points than now than otherwise pre Covid 19 stoppage.

I bet they wouldn’t. Whether or not they’ve improved since leaving, had Oxlade-Chamberlain and Iwobi stayed I strongly suspect they would have remained the fairly ordinary players they were or had become at Arsenal.

Agree about the front three. Only thing I think doesn't matter though is the points so we may as well play some youngsters. Not going to get top anything and should stay out of relegation with a win or two. Total write off season.

Right now Ox has no hard feelings, no worries. He has a wry smile on his face whenever our match is on TV saying to himself with as much humbleness as he can muster "...there but for the grace of God go I"

I think it may be worthwhile discussing the Ceballos situation. I have seen nothing to convince me that we should retain him beyond his loan period. I don't think he has performed at all and other than his supposed experience there is no justification to play him at all. He brings nothing to the team and his thought process is slow.

He was only selected after his open complaints about not being selected and apparently Arteta said he trained really hard after that. Sorry, but not good enough and would be a waste of money as has been his loan. It is selections like this that make me question Arteta's management.

I agree. Even if ox stayed and hadn’t progressed he would be the star baller in the side. Our current midfield has scored 1 goal between them all season. Ox definitely had a goal in him and definitely assists too.

I said earlier this year I felt Iwobi would be getting a ton of games if he hadn’t left. There’s no creativity at all in the side.

Are you happy to drop into the bottom half of the table then ?

That’s what will happen if we play them and they lose more games. Is it good for the players to be getting thrashed so much?

I get it and my respect for ljungberg increased when for his final game he simply played all the youngsters because he was appalled at the attitude of the senior pros but are we happy to terminally damage the rest of the season to make a point

I agree that they would have stayed as fairly ordinary players had they stated, but that’s my point, even at fairly ordinary they are both better than what we currently have in their best/their favourite position.

I don’t think it was a bad thing we sold them for £60m odd, I don’t pine for them to be back. We’ve just spent that £60m very badly and so they would have remained some of the best midfielders at the club

Sorry I’m really not convinced what you say is right. I honestly think we have midfielders who, if they played for Liverpool, would be a better player than Oxlade-Chamberlain is there. I’d say the same about Iwobi if they played for Everton.

I think you’re seriously underestimating the negative impact joining Arsenal can have on players. If Pépé had joined Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham or Manchester United I reckon he’d have become a better player than he is now. It inevitably takes a bit of time to become ‘Arsenalised’, if I can call it that. But declining at Arsenal is what I see becoming the norm. I hope they all stay as I’m an Arsenal fan, not a players’ agent. But if I was the career mentor for Saka, Guendouzi and Martinelli I’d be advising them all to get out as soon as possible.

That in my view is what Arsenal has now become.

Hi Bernard, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I agree on all your points about being 'Arsenalised' and how some of our signings may have fared at clubs with better structures.
My point was if we took the level of player Ox and Iwobi were at the point of leaving Arsenal, so only their 'Arsenalised' self I think both would be the best players in their position in the current team. The point being we sold two players who certainly weren't the best in their position when they left and have regressed so much that they now would be considered the best

David Ornstein has said an Arsenal player tested positive for Covid-19 and had been in close contact with 2 other players leading up to the City game, all 3 missed 3 days of training but it turned out the test was a false positive so all 3 played in the City game. Given the short prep time the 3 days missed of training would have been important. Of course City would still have thrashed us but it does seem like Arteta can't catch a break at the moment.