I saw something on another forum comparing the feel of the game to the end of days towards the end of Georges reign in 94 when we were just getting through games purely off the back of Adams determination and Ian Wright’s finishing and nothing else.

I have to agree with the thought to be honest. This is a plain average squad riddled with problems, it feels like we are as far as away of returning to success than at any point. Never mind winning I’m not sure where our next goal from open play is coming from.

Teams have worked out that if you nullify our threat from the full backs and width you stop us scoring. Arteta won’t compromise his ideology so we aren’t playing enough direct balls over the top.

I can’t recall how many games I sat watching the dross in that period sat freezing in the Northbank just praying for the ball to drop at wrightys feet around the box. Just feels the same.

The heat is starting to increase for Arteta. The positivity of his first season was characterised by clear and quite inspiring communication, a defensive solidity, fostering great team spirit, and ending with a trophy. This season we are seeing the alarming absence of any consistent attacking play, too many players underperforming and a slow slide into mid table. I hope he is given time to turn it around but for the first time I’m concerned that he may not have the answers as these negative traits are becoming increasingly prominent.

This is years in the making, no amount of coaching gets you out of this. Not sure you can level this at Arteta.

I am not sure where we go from here.

I kind of agree with Bernard though, the team performances are less than the sum of the parts. We have some reasonably decent quality players but they just aren't performing either individually or collectively.

Leeds fans must love watching their side....win, lose or draw. They play with pace, athleticism, movement and a high level of technical quality. They work their socks off without the ball, play a high intensity press and mark man for man so there is no absolving of individual responsibility.

Watching some of the press conferences and gunnerblog : the focus is on Pépé. There is almost an understatement that if he hadn’t got sent off we would have won the game. The first half did not suggest at any time that we were playing well and creating chances. Indeed Leeds could have been well ahead before the send off. It is hiding behind the send off.

I am starting to think he is losing the dressing room. The players have become constipated by his strict orders of where to move etc. now that’s all great if you are still winning but we don’t look too likely to score at all. The Wolves game is now massive and I don’t even want to think about the EPL game after that is not something I want to contemplate at all.

If Emery had been in charge this season and we played the way we have and got the results we have then fans would have been calling for his head.

Winning the FA Cup has given Arteta more time but at some point we have to see something more from his management.

There is no football manager on this planet that could achieve a top 4 finish in this league with a midfield 3 of ceballos, Xhaka and willock. We have only Pépé and Aubameyang who are comfortable at shooting from outside the box and our midfield players make john Jensen look prolific.

A far easier decision to make is to believe that Arteta is at fault and he’s lost the dressing room than to believe the we simply aren’t all that great and our transfer strategy has been ridiculous for 10 years

Wasn’t there a penalty given for exactly that earlier in the season? Doherty was it?
I don’t really know what the rule is anymore, other than Man U get penalties no matter what

Totally agree on this. Heard Arteta's post-match interview on the radio and he was asked if he was concerned by our lack of progress over the last few games. He said, straightforwardly, no, we have to realise it's gong to take some real time to build a squad capable of the level we require. He said there may be some rough times ahead in the shorter term, but essentially said the squad wasn't anywhere near the required standard for Arsenal. He was also clearly livid with Pépé - who I'd sell quite frankly now.

the only players to come out of today with any genuine credit were; Saka, Gabriel, Leno and Tierney who I think is a proper leader on that pitch. Possibly Bellerin too. Unfair to judge Aubameyang I guess as he's receiving no service whatsoever.

Saw Tierney had a pop at the Leeds player who Pépé butted. Did it at the final whistle I presume suggesting he went down far too easy, which he did but it’s still a red for Pépé. Much prefer Tierney as a full back and is one of the more consistent players in the team, the attitude and spirit is right.
Can’t underestimate the effect missing Partey has on us. His level is so far above anything else we have in midfield it was a bit of a shock when he came in and just did some pretty basic central midfield things comfortably.
Sad to see the team so far away from where we want to be in every aspect, it has been years in the making this but right now it doesn’t even feel like there is untapped potential in the squad, it’s just a lot of very average players who we’re only hoping can be better because they cane with higher price tags than their contemporaries at the likes of Leeds, Southampton and Villa (to pluck 3 other mid table teams)

After the game I looked at the league table. There are at least 8 sides in this league who are comfortably better than us. Since 1993 we haven’t had so many average players in our squad. We have players sides like Leicester or villa wouldn’t touch with a barge pole. This won’t rectify itself quickly

I think Wiltshire called this correctly sometime ago when he said we have a managerial merry go round about to occur, I agree and our fans expectations exceed observational reality.

I agree. Even games like Westhsm they had a massive number of good chances and could have beaten us. The Man U game is looking like the odd game out rather than the norm. I just can’t see what way we are trying to play. It appears he came in last season and used all his magic and now other teams just play to block that game. There are some good players in our squad but very few good combinations of players.

Today, I didn’t understand Willian being picked. He looked like a player who had jet lag

Pépé looked like he just didn’t like his instructions from minute one and just wanted to do the attacking bit but nothing else. I just don’t see Cellabos as a fit for the team and Xhaka is too slow when opponents have any zip. Leno Bellerin and Saka and a bit of Tierneys play were okay. This could be a really long season. Arteta and some of the players are lucky there are no fans in the ground.

So it's confirmed that Pépé is brainless and at this stage no better than Walcott. Thankfully we won't see him again for 3 PL matches.

Arteta knows what's wrong and he changed the formation with the tempo also quicker in the first 20. Players like Willian and Ceballos trying to beat that first defender and Gabrielle floating into the midfield to try and draw a defender out of it. Given how much effort it must have taken in training to sort out the defensive shambles and team shape, it will also take time to rebalance towards attack. I agree with what Arteta said in the interview that the stop, start season so far is hindering training plans and any kind of fluency, especially when it wasn't there to begin with.

Opposition improving their game for us then becoming mediocre for their next game shouldn't be a huge surprise. They will always lift themselves to beat a so called tier one club, especially when they think they can get something from it. Sadly, that's the way it will be until we develop a reputation.

I think Arteta had to do that to instil the discipline on the tactical side and you must recall that under Emery, players were floating around all over the place with no idea where they were supposed to be. What I agree on though is that now that he has the structure, he needs to ease off on the running commentary although I also don't want him parking himself on the bench like Wenger.

Willock had his chance yesterday. But, he did not play with the same level of conviction that Saka gives. There were moments when he, momentarily (pun unintended) stood still to watch, when the ball was coming towards his direction. By the time he reacted, the Leeds player had already moved the ball a few metres forward. I felt his level of concentration was not good enough.

Ceballos had a few moments of good progressive football. But, still not good enough.

Xhaka, well, he is just not good enough. A few times he immediately ran back to our penalty area to join the centre-backs in defence. I'm not sure if that was Arteta's instructions. I thought he should be running, intelligently, towards an area outside the penalty area to make it more difficult for the Leeds winger to find their player. It ended up with a few free Leeds players waiting for the easy ball to them.

Pépé, still not enough end product for the more than 70m spent.

We have no midfield

Based on his reaction to the losses, no. But I hope I am wrong.

Unlikely this season, but it's too early to be too pessimist, especially considering how most of our rivals are also unable to show any consistency, and that the defense is starting to feel pretty good.

I'd like to see a decent run of games with Partey in the side and Aubameyang (whose current lack of impact is worrying) in the middle, with Saka and Nelson starting and Willian and Pépé used as a sub.

When is Martinelli expected back?

Forgot to add the useless Willian, another player on retirement mode

Two players I looked to for some leadership this season are Aubameyang and Willian. Neither are close to the players they were before signing contracts this summer.
Tierney is a fighter and still seems very happy to be at a big club and is making the most of it. Pépé simply lacks the maturity so far at this level. Maybe with time he will mature but right now, he's a somewhat petulant young player. I'm guessing he thinks he's better than he actually is. The fee paid may have a lot to do with it. He's not a team player right now and that is hurting us when he's on the pitch. I think he thinks step overs and wonder goals are the only way to show his worth.

All these issues and more are what Arteta has to deal with and make it work...and fast before we find ourselves struggling to be top half of the league.

I don’t think there is any way Arteta can get top 4 with this squad. Much more likely to win a trophy as that just requires one off good performances.
Expectations have to be adjusted, we’re nowhere near Liverpool and City. Chelsea have spent £250m and will make top 4 easily based on their fore power and shear depth of squad. Spurs and Leicester have better squads than us, Man U are a bit dodgy in defence and can’t find a good midfield but have so much more going forward so will finish above us I’m sure. We’re really struggling.
It doesn’t feel like it can be fixed in any way but the transfer market. We still need a right sided CB, at least 3 new midfielders, a pair of striker/wide forward types. And I’m not even sure whether those that then get demoted from the first 11 due to those signings are even good enough for a squad place!

Top 4 ? No chance forget it, we won’t get in the top 6

Who is going to slip up for us ?

Chelsea have ziyech, mount and havertz. No chance

Liverpool and city well it doesn’t need explaining.

Spurs have players like Kane, son and even Moura who walk into out side

Leicester have solidity, work rate and Maddison and vardy winning games on the break.

Top 4? Bob hope and no hope

I’m a little less willing to blame Aubameyang’s poor form on the midfielders not giving him service. Is he making himself available to receive the ball in dangerous positions? Not as far as I can see. Indeed, Saka did put him through on goal yesterday and he fluffed it.

I noticed Hazuki (I think, if it wasn’t apologies to him and whoever it was) mentioned Aubameyang’s form dipped dramatically around the time he renewed his contract. Look, myself I’m confident that’s no more than a coincidence and his poor form since isn’t linked to the contract renewal. But on other Arsenal chat rooms I’ve seen more suspicious suggestions that he was previously playing for a huge pay rise and once he got it, he’s now doing an Özil. He is, after all, the same sort of age as Özil at only eight months younger.

I’ve also seen the same suggestion about Willian’s form, another player around the same sort of age at two months older than Özil, so nine months older than Aubameyang (the slight discrepancy in my comparison of Özil and Aubameyang’s ages in the last paragraph is due to them being born at different times in the month). Bloody excellent at Chelsea, so far bloody useless at Arsenal. I suppose flying out to the Middle East for a posh steak and chips will raise suspicions about his attitude but as I’ve said before, Willian’s technical ability will not have changed one iota from when he was a Chelsea player a few months ago. But gooner7 has claimed he’s in retirement mode at Arsenal. I hope he isn’t, and I don’t think Aubameyang is either, though I do accept Özil probably is.

Myself, I still think the most likely explanation for our form is not having loads of rubbish players. We simply don’t, that suggestion is laughable fiction in my humble opinion. I reckon it’s more likely linked to the style of play Arteta has adopted. I can understand why he did it too. We’ve stopped conceding so many goals despite the Villa game. He needs to be given the time to link a strong defence with a more potent attack.

The key for me is telling players to start playing with more energy and getting the ball forward quicker. So to play more like Liverpool than Manchester City although I accept Arteta worked under, and was presumably greatly influenced, by Guardiola and not Klopp. I have to admit, I never really enjoyed watching Barcelona under Guardiola. Wonderful players, a brilliant side - I just didn’t enjoy watching them. I don’t find this short passing (tiki-taka as it’s commonly called) style of football entertaining, and it was Wenger’s adoption of it with inferior players to Barcelona (we never had Messi, Iniesta and Xavi) that really turned me against him.

Ironically our lack of energy is where I firmly believe Guendouzi has been a serious loss because getting all over the pitch is exactly what he did. Yet some people took it upon themselves to criticise him for it as a lack of positional sense or discipline. Personally, as people know I’m a big Guendouzi fan and I think he could have been coached to play with more discipline while still giving us more energy in midfield. Sadly, Arteta doesn’t like him so realistically, Guendouzi has played his last game for the club. But if our midfield is over-static, I reckon he’s being missed.

Back in our rightful place at the top of players unavailable through injury or suspension, luiz, Marí, chambers, kolasinac, partey, Elneny, Saka, willian, Pépé

Take a look at Chelsea’s side from Saturday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54941197

How many of our players would get in that first 11? I reckon maybe 3 at most. Gabriel, Leno and maybe maybe Bellerin.

We are miles away from where we need to be.

Top 6 is likely the best we can hope for. As it stands only West Ham, Palace and Villa are the only sides above us I feel comfortable in saying we will finish above.
If we get lucky with ties and big boys get knocked out, a domestic cup. We aren't good enough to win the Europa. A semi or final maybe...if we get lucky. If we pick up a game changer in the transfer window that may change things but is unlikely to happen.

But this group of players haven't shown themselves anywhere near capable of getting us to where we want to be, a number of them have been at the club for quite a few years under 3 different managers and are only regressing. These players got 8th place last year, so it can't be mostly Arteta and his tactics that doesn't have us in the top 4. Of course he isn't blameless, I agree that he needs to find a way to make us more potent in attack but I think we'd have a damn sight better chance at top 4 with 4-5 new players than the best manager in the world with this same group of players.
If we assume Klopp is the best manager in the world right now what would he do with the current squad to play his exciting brand of high energy relentless attacking football? He'd sell most of them because they aren't capable of playing it - it is exactly what he did at Liverpool but it took him 4-5 years to turn it in to what it is now. I think only 3 players have survived from the entire squad he inherited.
Or, if Arteta had Lampard's summer budget of £250m - which is £175m more than Arteta had. Aouar could have been bagged for £50m, another £25m CB, a new £40m striker, another £25m holding mid and a £30m winger. Obviously that isn't realistic for us and there is no guarantee of their success but we are so far away from having the players good enough to compete for top 4 it is laughable

I saw a headline that said this was a turning point for Pépé....one way or another. It could be true, is this the final rocket he needs to stop sulking and putting in half baked performances and actually knuckle down - or does he decide it's too hard and everything is against him and drift off in to a knock-down transfer out of the club back to a mid table french club? Either way I'm far more looking forward to seeing Nelson (hopefully) playing on the right wing in the next 3 league games.

It will be a nice change but Nelson had ten decent minutes of energy but hit a load of fullbacks with his crosses mostly.

Ziyech he ain’t

Rich, we can play with a higher tempo with our current players. Individual games have shown that. Manchester United at home last season, the Chelsea cup final both spring to mind but there have been others. I just don’t accept our players are quite as bad as some make out. And I definitely think with Arsenal’s current squad, Klopp WOULD get more out of them. I’m not denying he wouldn’t bring others in over time. Of course he would. That’s what managers do. But I firmly believe that with exactly the same group of players currently at Arsenal, Klopp would get more out of them.

If you or anyone wants to see a huge turnaround in players at Arsenal, maybe moans would be better directed at Kroenke. There isn’t a huge difference between his and Abramovich’s wealth after all. And if Stan’s wife would lend him a few bob, as a couple the Kroenke’s are significantly richer than Abramovich.

That I agree with Top Gun.

We can’t. We just can’t and that’s the problem. This is not a team capable of playing any one touch football what so ever. Those games have been won by individual moments and being organised

If you gave Arteta 175 million he would sign 2 number 8 type midfielders and a number 10.

The idea klopp can get more from Xhaka is just laughable, he’d bin him in a heartbeat.

But we can do. It has happened in individual games. It really has. The Chelsea cup final. I suspect you’re right that Klopp would get rid of Xhaka. But he had a fine game in the Chelsea final, so I even think Klopp would be able to get more out of him.

It hasn’t, when was the last time we played slick one touch football think ala Jack Wilsheres goal againest Norwich ? We haven’t Bernard.

The chelsea cup final was won by 2 individual moments. First being a lofted excellent pass from Tierney and Aubameyangs slick finish. The city win in the semi ? The very same ball from Tierney won us that tie too. We aren’t winning these games in the midfield battle with fast passing and tempo.

We played that final with a good tempo. We did, full stop. As we did against Manchester United at home last season, and in the first half of the home game against Chelsea last season (the second half dropped off).

I’m not saying it happens often enough but it has occasionally happened. That means with the players currently available it is possible. If Klopp was our manager, even with exactly the same players as we currently have, I firmly believe he would get us playing with a higher tempo even before he’s able to replace loads of them.

It’s not. Arsenal are now approaching 500minutes in the league since they last scored in open play. In certain games we may look competitive but we are not dominating the midfield battle, cutting teams open with fast tempo and passing and we are currently 11th in the table and look like a team that should be 11th.

Joe willock as a number 10 for arsenal ? I mean I like the kid but that’s complete poverty at this level of the game. As rich points out many of these players have now failed for successive managers.

The hard truth is some of the guys we have are sadly not of the level required.

Nketiah, willock and Nelson should be on loan to championship sides at this stage in their career not bailing out the arsenal first team. Xhaka, a perpetual failure, ceballos a midfielder Madrid thought wasn’t good enough to sit on their bench and were not even fussed about getting a loan fee for. Chuck in an expensive and talented but exceptionally inconsistent winger and a 32 year old last final contract and it’s the perfect receipe for disaster.

Transfers and horse trading get us out of this not coaching.

Probably. And the same with Willock, who may find it hard to translate his excellent form against the likes Dundalk. But it would be good to see them run of starts, nevertheless. They are unlikely to make us worse at the this stage!

Hi Bernard, I agree Klopp would get more from them, but only because he's a vastly experienced and very good manager, but I still think he'd struggle to get this team where we want it to be. There are easily 6-8 better first 11's in the league. Arteta is a rookie manager and will make mistakes but the hand he's been dealt is terrible. I've always said the easiest thing to do in football is to make a team more solid and harder to beat, it is why I used to bemoan Wenger's lack of ability to do this because even journeymen league 1 defences could be more organised than we were for many years. Arteta has done that but it has come at the expense of the attack. If he releases the shackles we swing the other way.

I don't think a huge turnover of players isn't possible, the money isn't anywhere near what Chelsea have but over the last 3 seasons we've seen huge numbers of players leave and join Arsenal
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-arse ... /verein/11
Have a look at the ins and outs of what we would consider 1st team players in this website. More turnover than any big 6 club for sure.
It can and will have to be done again in the next transfer windows. Özil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Luiz and Ceballos are all out of contract with us in the summer. That is 5 gone. Then Lacazette, Chambers, Kolasinac, Nketiah will have only 1 more year - I can only see Nketiah and Chambers signing new deals but it might be none of them do. We also have Torreira and Guendouzi on loan and Elneny who could all easily leave. If the club make the right decisions on the outgoings even allowing for a loan for Nketiah that is 12 players gone. We have a bloated squad so you don't need to replace with 12 but there needs to be dramatic movement and I think there will be. We'd have seen a lot more this summer without Covid

I feel to have come full circle.

Back when I first started supporting Arsenal in the early sixties we were an ordinary mid table team and had to live off stories of past glories. We were even managed by a player in his first (only) management stint.

Rich, I’ve never said the existing players can get us to where we want it to be. However, where we want it to be is probably different. You and others may have different “where we want it to be” hopes than me.

I want to see Arsenal win the Champions League before I pop my clogs (hopefully a few decades yet). Do I think our current squad could do that? No I don’t. But under Klopp, who you agree would get more out of them than Arteta, I think there is some sort of chance he’d qualify us for next season’s competition with a fourth place finish. Not saying he’d guarantee it. But I think there is a possibility he could.