With regard to my list: you are splitting hairs as I am sure you are aware. In any case, the issue is not whether American voters are a homogeneous group. The issue is whether they are a more worthy subject of cynicism than EPL footballers. EPL footballers have not used their collective agency to inflict something a awful as Bush, let alone Trump, on us. They have pretty much done what they are supposed to do, warts and all ... so I am giving them a pass.

I'm not sure that the Left is eating itself up in quite the way you imagine. It is unfortunate that identity politics has taken the form it has in some instances. It leads to a politics that is the exact opposite of 'radical' in the sense Lenin meant. But it's hardly surprising given a) the way the universities have corporatised and how power operates in these hierarchies--sexual violence, racism, and corruption are not figments of privileged imagination--at least were I come from; and b) the demise of what people disparaging call the 'old left'. The student protests here last year are a case in point. They were pretty much shipwrecked by identity politics, but an identify politics that had nothing to do with radical feminism or 'old Left' thinking. If anything it was motivated by a half-baked Fanonianism that stopped being critical when it was convenient.

Welbeck should have had a penalty. But I think other moans about the referee are verging on futile. I bet there were things he did that would have attracted criticism from Manchester United fans had the result gone the other way. We didn't lose that game because of the referee.

Wenger's teams have been defensively inadequate for a decade now. If you looked at the big teams in europe and the number of goals conceded through inexplicably poor defending and organisational issues we'd be a country mile ahead of anyone else.

How many goals have we conceded over the last 10 years that were just downright embarassing in the context of a so called professional football team. What on earth does Steve Bould actually do because there is zero sign of him having imparted any of his defensive nous to the players at his disposal?.

Three years ago Bellerin burst on the scene as a pacy and energetic fullback with great potential but who needed to work hard on both the defensive and attacking side of his game. Three years on and he's made little progress, his defending is still mediocre and his final ball is average at best.

Xhaka's lack of athleticism continues to be an issue. The commentators spoke about his rashness and the fact he is always picking up yellow cards but in my opinion he is not a dirty player it is just that he is always a split second late with his challenges. He gets there as quick as he can but he's a yard too slow for the frenetic pace of the PL. He needs replacing but he won't be.

Monreal is OK in a back three but no more than that and certainly not a CB in a back four. Kos was our only defender close to being worldclass but I think persistent achilles problems are now affecting his game. I don't really rate Mustafe.

Čech is still a good keeper but no longer a great keeper and Wenger is talking about him playing into his forties when the reality is that we should be replacing him sooner rather than later. Butland looks a decent keeper.

I'm not splitting hairs. Your use of terms like "conservatives" and "Zionists" is just sloppy. I don't think Zionist is any longer a useful term especially as it is often used as a code by anti-semites and those who are quite happy to tolerate or turn a blind eye to the barbarities of Islamic regimes while saving all their wrath for Israel.

You misunderstood and continue to do so what I mean by cynicism - I was referring solely to their motivations and not whether they are the kind of humans in general of which we might or might not approve. I am uninterested in their political views or general moral worth - a topic you introduced. I was simply referring to what drives their professional motivations.

(Equally, I couldn't really give a *%^@ about Lenin. For some reason Western leftists seem to give him a pass when it comes to the murderous totalitarian regime of which he was the original architect).

When people like Germaine Greer are blacklisted, no-platformed and threatened for not having the correct attitudes to "gender" or when people are abused and silenced for being "transphobic" because they don't accept some of the current absurdities on this topic then something is very seriously wrong. (I was talking about the left in the UK btw - I don't know enough about student politics in SA to comment on that, I imagine it is a much more complex issue due to the apartheid legacy)

I'm not sure if we disagree here (setting aside the issue of how worthy of cynicism footballer are). My impression is that the Left in Britain is in the process of coming to its senses ... at least compared to trajectory you describe in the Netherlands. My impression is that Daz doesn't see it that way.

Your impression is completely correct.

I'm not sure whether your persistence in suggesting that my cynicism towards PL footballers is based on their failure to appreciate properly the transitional programme of the 4th International rather than their ability to turn in a decent performance to secure the transfer they want is wilful or simply careless.

For the avoidance of future confusion though it is most definitely the latter. I also agree they are not worse than slave-owners, paedophiles or serial killers and that Mesut Özil is possibly less likely to trigger a nuclear conflict than Kim Jong-Un and Donald Trump.

Socrates, I think many of our players would be much better under a new manager, including Mustafe and Xhaka. It's Wenger we should be wanting to go more than specific players.

It's truly remarkable that you seem to be a fan of both, and spend an unhealthy amount of time on this forum, and yet managed to miss this.

Your second paragraph is a load of guff. I don't imagine and have not suggested anything of the sort, and you are well aware of this. This leads me to doubt the sincerity of the opening of your 3rd paragraph.

The rest of you post is a good exhibit of the your fondness for hyperbole. Which is where we started ...

Decaf: Let's not be cynical about Mesut Özil.

Daz: Let's.

Decaf: Conservatives. Zionists. White Supremacists and for good measure the entire American electorate.

Daz: !!!

Decaf: You and your hyperbole, why I oughta....

No ..disillusioned ..they built a brand new workshop destroying a completely workable carpenters shop in the process ..a two story building which has no internal access to the top floor

The two upper floor entry points where sited in such perculiar spots the stairs alone cost $80 ,000 .
One set would have looked like an octopus with a hysterectomy but after putting 50,000 down for that they ran out of money .
All up they spent $ 250 ,000 on a building which has fire sprinklers , power cables but no lights / switches or stairs .

We have this simpering wretch head of the trustees [ reminds me of Arsene ] who oversaw anything made decisions without board approval , an engineering consultant .

I said to him " I have never seen such a giant sized f***&* up in all my life " " Oh I don't see it that way " he said

There's a feature film in this.

Starring Russell Crowe as Kiwi Pete and Steve Buscemi as the simpering engineering consultant.

Obviously we'll need to tweak the existing dialogue a little.

Wow! Just.........wow. In 2017.

Why, you old cynic....

Wait, gunfire, we CANNOT agree about anything it is in the forum rulebook....

Evening Bernard. It is true we have spoken of this before. My concern is that Kos is a person who is playing on borrowed time with a big injury always possible. Monreal is no spring chicken and Čech is starting to look his age. Čech should have stoped one of those goals last night. Mert is at the end. IMO we need defensive repairs and replacements. Whether Wenger actually then cares enough to get them organised is another issue.

What is your view on Xhaka. I don't think he is good enough and this season he has been terrible. Because Wenger overpaid for him he is doing a Walcott and just picks him. As I said at the time - no other team was seeking him and that should have told us the story of how good he was. He is no better than Coq.

Finding The stewards enquiry about our poor defending after last nights game quite amusing. Has nobody watched us for the last ten years. first 2 goals were shambolic. Monreal and Kos are both well past their best now sadly and Mustafi is hit and miss. Throw in an ageing keeper and it's a recipe to leak goals against the good sides.



Have to be honest i wasn't shocked at the result Wenger just can't beat Jose. As for his post match interviews Wenger is starting to resemble Sean Spicer

Possibly because, assuming his blocking claims to be true, he only reads approximately 5% of forum posts. Yet persists in posing a 'question for the forum' about every 5 minutes.

23 games left in the season. We need 57 points out of the possible 69 points in order to reach the magical 85 points. No excuses - no ECL.

It is about time some reporters grew some balls and asked Wenger. I suggest the following questions:

Reporter: ARsene you said that your aim was to obtain 85 points given that the team were not encumbered with ECL.
Wenger: Blah Blah
Reporter: If you do not achieve those points you must agree that you have failed this season
Wenger (angry): Blah blah blah
Reporter: Obviously you must also agree that resignation is your only option if you fail to obtain 85 points.

With the possible exception of Pers, when was the last time Wenger went out and recruited a big name or known central defender? The average supporter has always said 'Who?' when transfer season comes along and we are linked with a central defender. He's rolled the dice since the famous defense he inherited. I still think Sol put out feelers to us. Wenger lucked out. Sol wanted to stay in London with his family and CL football. No brainer at the time. We were the only ones who fit the bill. Since then he's put together central defenders on the cheap. SA few worked (Kos) and and far more didn't (Cygan). There isn't a league champion in the EPL since we won it that hasn't spent big on defenders with Leicester being the exception but that was due to lack of funds not lack of ambition. Chelsea, City and Man Utd who are the other winners have spent big on central defenders. The attack wins games but defense wins titles.

Wenger's self imposed limitatins on a transfer budget makes him only go after attack oriented players.

Just watching the game again. Our team are full of players who are more likely to miss, than score when a chance is presented. Xhaka, Iwobi, Wellbeck,Ramsay all panic when put in a good position. They often shoot straight at the goal rather than make the keeper work.

Now I know this will bring down all shorts of grief from the forum but Lacazette was really wasteful last night. He had a number of good chances and some half chances and while he did score he needs to convert some of the golden chances presented last night.

Overall the fact we were defensively dreadful cost us but he was bought as the top striker and to score and he cost us last night. Man U were dreadful defensively and we failed to capitalise. If he can't score with some of the chances presented last night, when Özil and Alexis leave, he really will have a lean spell.

Defensively when we get opened up we present easy chances. They had a number of other really good chances at 47 mins (1st half) and 51 minutes as an example where they really opened us up.

In relation to Progba his desent after he was sent off should carry further sanction. However the FA are a bunch of weak people scared of Mourinho. I think we ass a club should make a comment if they don't add on to the sanction.

Quick word on Xhaka. Erm he's *%^@.

I don't think he's getting in the first 11 of most other premiership teams apart from Arsenal. He's an outright liability and his lack of awareness of threats around our penalty area seem to cost us a goal every 2nd game. I'd play Wilshere as it can't be worse than Xhaka who looks Wengers greatest mistake ever in the transfer market given the size of fee and the urgency of the position we were hoping he would address.

Also yesterday's game simply re enforced what I've been saying for sometime.

New keeper, 2 new centre halves, new tackling midfielder and Sanchez and Özil replacements all required. 6 new first team players required before we are built to compete at the highest level.

We will never compete at the highest level again under Wenger and the rebuilding required is significant

[quote="TOP GUN"]Also yesterday's game simply re enforced what I've been saying for sometime.

New keeper, 2 new centre halves, new tackling midfielder and Sanchez and Özil replacements all required. 6 new first team players required before we are built to compete at the highest level.

We will never compete at the highest level again under Wenger and the rebuilding required is significant[/quote]
You summed things up in your final paragraph. We could get all the new players we want and for as long as Wenger is manager, it won't make any real difference.

Going back to Gaz from Oz, I agree our defenders are getting on and many will need replacing. But even if we do with top drawer players, under Wenger it won't change much, if anything at all.

Regarding Xhaka, I think there could be a good player in there somewhere. It looks like hopes he'd be another Petit were way over the top (was it lomekian who thought he might be)? If not, apologies to him but I think i was. But I'd be interested to see him under a different manager. I reckon we'd see a marked improvement.

Send your membership form to Daz - I always want us to win. Never saw the game but I am told it was a great one. At the time I was watching a live concert of Handel's Messiah. It includes some lines that our Cacklers might apply to their enemy Le Boss: "He was despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief."

Yes, he's all at sea a lot of the time.

Yes, tact was never your strong point

Have you ever considered a career in the diplomatic service.

It's this level of passionate commitment that puts the rest of us to shame.

I agree with Bernard's views. Wenger is no longer able to organise and coach teams as well as he used to. Somehow he allows himself to be stuck in his own myopic ways.

In fairness to the Son of God though he only let himself get crucified once.

I'm not sure he's ever been able to organise a team (he couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery ) and his training ground coaching methods seem to be concentrated around the art of tippy tappy football.

As far as I can see now his golden period coincided with a a time when he was able to cherry pick the french market for better technical players than almost everyone else, bar United, had and he was able to just let them get on with it.

Yes loaves and fishes, water into wine, healing the sick etc. but what about Cygan on the wing for a miracle?

OK it didn't come off exactly but I do not like to talk about referees.

Very true. Sad to say Wenger is not despised and rejected by Silent Stan, and his sorrow and grief is extremely well paid.

You're onto something there, Bromley, I'm even beginning to wonder...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOuWWzP7wl0[/youtube]

After we sold Henry and Vieira he was never able to reinvent the team. Not at any point after Henrys departure did I ever feel we were capable of winning a title from that point to where we are today. Also considering this and hindsight is a wonderful thing but it seems crazy to sell Patrick Vieira when he did, he didn't have a replacement and the effect was something we never really adapted from. Count the days till he goes because nothing will change, he's always been flawed and he knows it.

"Consultant" a.k.a. someone who hasn't a clue but gets paid lot anyway because they don't hang around long enough for their incompetence to be attributed back to them

Thanks Cobber Russell's okay

.... but Steve's too short , the bloke in question is a tall skinny simpering streak of weasel's piss .... think Arsene Wenger with less hair and glasses .

Mind you if Tom Cruise at 5 ' 7" can play the 6'3" Jack Reacher I guess anything's possible .

You've got the first part right but the clown actually lives right next door .
When the builders completely floored the top story I said ...... why have they done that ... where are the stairs going ...?
That threw the cat amongst the pigeons ...everyone was happy until then

Consultant .... Oh we aren't having internal stairs it takes up too much floor space .

Me ... but you can use the space underneath the stairs for storage , nice little alcove for shelves , bolts , tools etc ... plus now every time you want to access the top story if it's pissing rain you get soaked ......... and with internal stairs we could have built them ourselves we have a qualified chippy here .

Wetp**** ... in quiet well modulated tones , never gets excited ....... " Oh that's what we decided ".

Me ... Well I've got a two story house , thank Christ you weren't the architect

Museum 2: The Consultant's Story

Maybe so ...but when we lose you carry on opening the sardines , pouring the milk for the cats while humming Russ Hamilton's " Rainbow "

There's the Bingo night to look forward to , the chance to brush against Agnes with the big t*ts when she serves you your cuppa .

No catatonic meltdown with inquest as to where things went wrong , what might / should be done like the rest of us

... life goes serenely on as per usual ...so in short you don't care if we lose .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDvBmvFGPY