That’s crazy. In your plan B we would now have Leno who has been told we don’t want him then had to back track and make him No.1. Great way to build confidence and trust in a squad. By putting Leno up for sale you immediately wipe a huge amount of value off him.
Which top clubs signed a new gk last summer for the sort of value we’d have wanted for Leno (which in your eyes should have been more than £20m)? Chelsea did, would you have sold to them for the £20m they got Mendy?

This is the list of the GK transfers last summer in Europe’s
Top 5 leagues. Reasonable to assume these were the clubs who wanted a new gk and were willing to commit significant funds to getting one.
Mendy £22m chelsea
Martinez £20m villa
Ramsdale £18m sheff utd
Gomis £12.8m Rennes
Schwolow £7.8m Hertha Berlin
Grbic £6.3m Atlectico Madrid
Doni £6.3m Angers
Rico £5.4m PSG
Rulli £4.5m Villarreal
Omlin £4.5m Montpelier
Bono £3.6m Sevilla
How many of those clubs could have afforded Leno and Leno would have wanted to go there? Athletico, PSG bought back up gk, they won’t pay £25m for a back up and Leno wouldn’t go to be a back up.
You may say that other clubs may have come in if they’d known Leno was available - but then by your reasoning Martinez was available for less and is a better gk and no other teams put down the money villa did for him.

I’m not challenging the notion of anyone thinking Martinez is a better gk, I think they are close so can accept people will have an opinion either way (just like the Ronaldo v messi debate) my challenge is there was no other option for the club if they were thinking about the immediate and long term progression of the club.

The rules on penalties and red cards for denying a clear goal scoring opportunity need to change. You could really go so far as to say any foul denying a clear goal scoring opportunity in the box can only ever be a yellow card for the simple reason that you haven’t denied the goal scoring opportunity you have only delayed it.
Penalties are scored at about 78-80% of the time, I’d would wager a lot to say 1v1’s between striker and gk have a much lower % conversion.
So even all the cynical fouls get yellows - the only red cards are for fouls which would have been red cards elsewhere on the pitch, serious foul play and violent conduct etc.

There is no sport I can think of where a single decision can dictate the outcome of a match as much as the penalty in football. It’s because football is a Low scoring game compared to other sports. So we have more and more results decided by officials. You could compare % of football games decided by a single goal bs rugby games decided by 7 points or fewer.

I think it is an utter nonsense that 22 players can play for 89 minutes and then something like Martial’s dive last night decided the outcome of the game. By the way did anyone expect arrogant Mike Dean to overturn his own decision when looking at the pitch side monitor? Dean would see it as a personal slight that he was being asked to review it.

I’ve seen Keown say Luiz ‘only has himself to blame’ I’m sure many other pundits will say the same. I can guarantee plenty of defenders doing the same would be told ‘he’s unlucky there, he’s not done anything’

When Saka hit the post in the first minute, a second after he strikes the ball he is totally cleaned out from behind/side by Kilman. Why are these not penalties? The ball is still in play and Saka has been fouled. If Saka is in the left back position and receives that tackle/foul as he clears the ball it is a free kick every single time.

When BT go to Peter Walton as their expert ref (who basically has never disagreed with an onfield ref call ever) why doesn’t a pundit ask them about this. It happens all the time and I would be genuinely fascinated to hear a qualified referees reason why it isn’t a penalty and whether they would give the free kick for the same tackle elsewhere on the pitch.

https://twitter.com/Orbinho/status/1356 ... 39587?s=19

We have lost the last 4 games refund by Craig Parsons.

He's almost as consistent as Mike Reilly, oh wait a minute he is his boss

I think we can all agree it was a farcical decision based upon a farcical rule intended to punish players who commit a foul whilst making no genuine attempt to play the ball (such as a deliberate trip or a shirt being pulled back). Luiz made no attempt to do anything lllegal but was punished in the same way. It's nonsensical and the FA should hold their hands up and say that the decision to send off Luiz was not within the spirit of the laws or the game. His red should be rescinded immediately.

I mean you have a referee who cannot tell the difference between a corner and a throw-in and people on VAR who clearly do not understand the rules of the game and how they should be interpreted.

Who are Craig Parsons and Mike Reilly?

Never heard of them.

I watched MOTD and unless I misunderstood what they were saying, under the rules as they are Luiz should have been sent off, even though by taking common sense into account it should have been no more than a yellow. If as you said in another post Rich, Keown has claimed that Luiz has only himself to blame, he’s presumably basing that on what the rules currently are. Because, if I’m to be brutally honest, I think there was a slight contact. However, what’s important here is if a law is stupid, it makes the punishments for breaking them unfair.

As everyone here probably knows, I have an interest in female crime. One of the best known real life examples for the last sentence of my previous paragraph is Ruth Ellis. In 1955 she was hanged for murdering her boyfriend outside what used to be the Magdala Tavern in Hampstead (it’s now closed).

I once heard a Baroness who back then was the most senior judge in the country interviewed about the Ruth Ellis case. She said whether or not her execution was unfair, with the law as it stood at that specific time, her conviction for murder and subsequent hanging was the correct decision to make. The Baroness (can’t recall her name) said no other outcome was open to the law.

However, at least the law was changed as a direct result (or because of) the Ruth Ellis case, and anyone who did what she did only two years later wouldn’t have ended up on the end of a rope. But Ruth Ellis did because the law was what it was at the time.

Similarly, if the penalty and sending off of Luiz were the correct decisions according to the rules as they currently stand, the rules should be changed. Whether that happens is another question entirely.

Mark Clattenburg has come out and said the rule was applied incorrectly. My understanding from reading Clatteburg, and the article below is the rule was clarified for refs some time ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36047575

You could look at the rule and say he made no attempt to play the ball so it has to be a red. Or you could look at the rule and say a red card is only to be given for deliberate fouls - which of course Luiz's nor Bednarek's were. My understanding is 'accidental' fouls were clarified as being yellow cards when the rule around denying goal scoring opportunities was also clarified.

Contact is virtually impossible to see on any replay, but the actions of the wolves player and Luiz stumbling after would suggest there probably was some contact. So I can live with it being a penalty as long as that same amount of contact when there is no attempt at a tackle results in penalties in every game - which we know won't be the case.

I have seen this view being argued, and I have to say; if that's how the rule is supposed to be interpreted it's the dumbest thing I've heard about in a long time. It would basically mean if you take the attacking player clean out while trying to get the ball you get a yellow, if you do your best to avoid the challenge but your knee slightly graze the attacking players foot, you get a red. Absolutely mental.

Bugger all we can do about the Wolves match now, onwards and upwards. If we carry on playing like we did in that first 40 minutes we'll win a lot more matches than we lose. We can't have dumb and dumber officiating every Arsenal match!

Look at the Wolves manager's post match interview. He knows. We were on a different planet to them until the Luiz red card. More of the same on Saturday please chaps.

There were still big positives to take out of the game. The way we played in the first 44 minutes was brilliant. The plan was clear, players were executing it, Saka was brilliant, Pépé has been revitalised on the left - he won the ball back for his own goal though his hard work - a switch has been flicked and he looks more dangerous on the left (which I did post was worth a try before he was moved there) Wolves didn't really have a sniff before the red card.
We need to have the right reaction, there needs to be a sense of injustice and anger but let it happen and be done with it and get back to the way were playing football at the moment.

The biggest question for Arteta is does Aubameyang come straight back in the team for Villa? Who from Pépé/Lacazette/Saka gets dropped? My gut feeling is Arteta will drop one of Pépé or Lacaazette but say they are being rested. He'll hope Aubameyang plays a blinder and then he can be considered undroppable - but if he doesn't it is a big call to leave Aubameyang on the bench

Last night was probably the worst result of the season for me. It's a bit strange, because we've lost games where we've just been playing like crap, and somehow that's easier to take. In those cases we have only ourselves to blame and it's up to the manager and players to just improve.

I had almost forgotten that feeling of being really hard done by; last night we played a great first half of football away to a very good side (albeit in very poor form). We were up for it, played with confidence, skill and pace and should've had another two goals. Can't help the feeling that it was stolen from us, because even at 1-1 I would've fancied us to win comfortably if it was 11v11.

Let's just hope the team sees the result for what it was. Top 4, and probably even top 6, was always going to be extremely difficult because of the hole we'd already dug ourselves, so the rest of the league season is more about finding our mojo. We already know we can defend really well, and now it looks like we're slowly finding our way offensively as well, and if we can keep improving the way we've been doing we're set for a much better season next year.

Okay, a final thing that irks me about last night. I've seen a lot of talk saying we should've put the game to bed earlier. And sure, we had chances to score more, but where does it say you have to lead 3-0 at halftime to 'deserve' a win? We had plenty of time left to create more chances and score, a whole 45 minutes in fact, but we weren't really given the chance.

All totally bonkers. If Luiz had tried to play the ball then it would have been a yellow. But because he didn’t, and it was completely accidental then it’s a red card. The laws of the game and their interpretation get weirder and weirder - and ever changeable.

It’s exactly this. Even if you don’t think the penalty should have been given it’s not a red.

The right thing to do is rescind the red but watch them double down on it.

I think this suggestion is just bad punditry. Stupid pundits talking rubbish. Double jeopardy says the player no longer gets sent off

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but when you look at the penalty incident from last night, has anyone noticed the rather strange and exaggerated motion from the Wolves player?

Luiz grazes the back of his foot with his knee when his foot is probably as far back on the upswing as it can get, but the same foot then gets propelled forward and ends up as far forward as it can possibly get? Is that possible naturally?

An obvious attempt to cheat the referee, and should be a booking imo.

Just saw this posted online. I have no idea if this is a true and accurate quote from Halsey, I'm surprised I haven't seen it before if it is and even more surprised it wasnt front page news

To be honest, it just sounds like a bunch of pundits breaking their backs to try and justify why it was a red card, rather than just looking honestly at the situation and apply the rules with a bit of common sense.

Know what you mean Haz.
The defeat really got under my skin and still feeling it now.
We played so fluidly and attacked with verve it was lovely to watch.
Feels like that 3 points was stolen from us and going just a point behind the 5th placed team.
We are definitely making progress and a win would have kept us unbeaten on this difficult run of games we are facing.
The ref The Var just *%^@** us over and it is infuriating with the sense of injustice.
Luiz should never have been positioned where he was , you could see the ball about to be slipped through and we were in trouble.
Should have managed the end to the half better. Maybe just knock it around rather than Leno hitting it long.
Very positive signs.
Villa away will be tough. Really hope we can bounce back. Really hope Matt Ryan is fit.
Am I the only one who thinks Aubameyang should be made to wait. Pépé looks like he is getting there. Being dropped will further damage his growing confidence.
Is Aubameyang more of a hindrance then help on the wing?

I would probably keep Aubameyang on the bench for now, but it's a tricky decision... Getting his goalscoring going would obviously help us out a lot, but I'd hate to see Pépé get benched now that he's playing so well. Lacazette has hit his best spell of form in an Arsenal shirt probably, and Saka is just undroppable. To me, as weird as it sounds, Aubameyang is the odd man out at the moment.

One final moan about refereeing, from a bigger perspective. I was talking to my brother about this last night, with the red cards against us and Southampton... Has there ever been MORE debate about refereeing decisions? Supporters complaining about refereeing is probably as old as the game itself, but the introduction of VAR was surely meant to make everything clearer - more objective decisions, less room for interpretation. To a certain extent it might've worked with offsides, but the rest of it just seems like such a mess. VAR doesn't seem to get it right more than the ref on the pitch, and then you have the whole issue of which situations they choose to look at and which ones they ignore.

Before VAR you could at least say the ref got it wrong but it's a tough job and he doesn't have the benefit of replays. Now that excuse has gone out the window, and we're still left scratching our heads every single week. If the question is if VAR has made the game better or more fair, my answer right now would be a resounding no on both accounts.

Also worth noting last night that the penalty happened on 47.48 mins when only 2 mins added on time had been allotted. I know it is a guide but how often do refs play any more than is dictated to them, especially by that much when for most of that time the ball was in the middle of the pitch

Might be something to it.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/266 ... -incidents

I found it odd last night that MOTD really praised the Man U full-backs for getting forward and getting in the box without ever caveating it by saying they were playing 10 men all game and 9 men for a while. They didn't have to do any defending so could become wingers. Of course they actually HAD to do it, but it was effectively a free role for them both.
When there is a red card that early you can only make two conclusions from Man U.
1) are they good enough to break down a team with an all out defence mentality, albeit a man down. Yes they were
2) are they ruthless enough to keep piling on to kill the game, yes they were.
But don't conclude that this was some brilliant tactical plan to get the fullbacks higher up the pitch to win the game, it is what an U12 manager would have done against 10 men.

https://youtu.be/VdmGZPs_Lx4

Watch the penalty Mike Dean refused to give vs Watford last year. Then at 30 seconds in look at Dean’s reaction when it was over turned by var....this was before refs were told to review it themselves on monitors.

These sorts of non penalties are so regular for us. I wish I could find the clip but if you look up Saka being fouled by Amartey in the league cup match v Leicester it is an awful decision to not give the pen. And as there was no attempt to play the ball and Saka would have shot at the gk it would have been a red as well. I know we won the game anyway but this is so common place for our games it is ridiculous .

Compare it to the penalty that wasn’t given against Maguire when he had azpilicueta in a headlock, or against Pogba when he bundled over the Brighton player, or Martial diving last night, or Fernandes getting a pen for stamping on a villa players foot.

Partly it is because there is just more 'debate' about everything. Some of this is good, as the greater scrutiny of everything has revealed many issues that were previously not in the public eye. Partly it is not good, as the fragmentation of social media means that dead horses continue to get beaten. There shouldn't be a debate about whether the earth is flat, whether Trump won the election, whether the moon landing and the Sandy Hook massacre were faked.

I think a lot of football debates are a lot like that. Stupid people with megaphone in the tower of Babel.

So I'm not sure that level of noise about anything is a good indicator. Has VAR made things worse? I think not.

Regarding Luiz's sending off. I'm now far less certain about the whole thing. I think the rule that makes that a sending off is ridiculous. But it's hard for the ref not to give that in real time. And for VAR: there is contact, so is there sufficient grounds to overturn? Was Luiz not at least careless getting himself into that position?

Here ya go : https://www.caughtoffside.com/2020/09/2 ... kayo-saka/

It is also time diving was properly looked at in the game. I can understand the difficulties in spotting it in real time or even in the heat of the game with VAR, what there needs to be is a separate panel who review the incidents each week and irrespective of the decision at the time they decide if the player has dived. Make sure the panel is made up of an ex-player - it can all be anonymous as well. The FA need to get over the whole notion that if the ref 'saw' it at the time no further action can be taken. It doesn't protect refs it just highlights their mistakes even more.

I don't necessarily agree with people who say diving should be a 3 game ban, that would be excessive. But I think there could be a points system, get caught diving twice and you get a 1 game ban, every two dives = a ban. This allows a chance to correct behaviour. This should go for any player engineering the contact themselves, we've all seen it, the classic falling over and both legs splay out or drag behind in a completely non-natural manner. These are dives, call them what they are.

At the moment refs are simply not punishing it and so players keep doing it, and they are getting better at it. It is a shame that dark arts and decisions are winning football games more and more rather than the actual football!

Wow, it is even worse than I remembered.

Some of these decisions gone againest us are crazy

https://twitter.com/linkuparsenal/statu ... 09760?s=21

Arsenal will appeal Luuz red card.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theathleti ... uo%3famp=1

We lost. Mulling over it and re-analyzing decisions won't do any good. The good I take from it were looked like we were going to win it after our goal. We looked good for a 2nd goal. Oy well. Time to focus on Villa.

Arsenal have left Alex Runarsson out of their Europa League squad. Mat Ryan, Gabriel Martinelli and Martin Ødegaard have been added to the group.

We've conceded 22% of our league goals in the 3 minutes before half time. Far too high a percentage and needs addressing

I think a significant problem with VAR is that so many refereeing decisions, outside things like whether the ball has fully crossed the line (which is why goal line technology, albeit not part of VAR, has been such a success) are subjective or based on personal opinion. Stuff like if a foul was committed, or whether a hand ball caused by a ricochet should be taken as deliberate and a penalty awarded, are far more debatable.

Furthermore I don’t think fans of one of the competing teams are always the most reliable source for unbiased opinion on refereeing decisions. Nothing highlighted this more than a few years ago when The Gooner used to run pieces on what was said on the fan forums of opposition teams when they played Arsenal. There was one example, think it was against Manchester City, when here Rich (who’s still with us) and lomekian (who no longer is) were having a right old moan about decisions going in City’s favour. The term ‘right old moan’ is the understatement of the year.

Anyway, when The Gooner showed what was said on online City chat rooms, it was the complete opposite. You’d have thought the referee had been paid or bribed by Arsenal, or was a lifelong die hard supporter, he was favouring us so much with his decisions. According to them anyway. I’m not saying everyone here is wrong about criticising yesterday’s officiating. I’m just saying this isn’t the site to go to for unbiased viewpoints.

They need to recruit refs at the highest level that understand the game......from having played it at a reasonable level.
You can see the refs we have like Dean, Pawson et al don't really know the game as it is played - they don't "see" things they should cos they aren't looking for them because they are too busy watching for "A" that when added to "B" = "C". I defy anyone who really understands how players play, watch back the Luiz incident last night and come up with what the onfield and VAR officials came up with.
Maybe a few players could be recruited to help the VAR officials to provide that angle too?

Interesting. Just reading on Sky that OGS was discussing the Luiz sending off with the referee before his game with Southampton saying he didn't think it should have been a sending off.