Just again, for the probably 10th time, I’d just like to stress how much of a cheat Mané is. Every time I watch that guy he endangers opponents and dives like a goodun’ .

When I once got a red card, the referee said to one of my team-mates, ‘You know how Granit is, he loses his head’. Just because I lost my head against Burnley, for example, it is not like I lose my head every time. To put me in this box like this I believe is wrong.”




… sorry mate that’s a stretch you can’t blame the referees for the reputation you yourself cultivated. Your taking out players in the wrong part of the pitch and letting your team mates down. A literal walking red card and every game he plays carries a certain amount of risk depending what stage of the game his inevitable first yellow comes. If it’s early then my goodness you are going to be skirting your luck.

I've got to say Ash .... watching most football these days can be a bit an off putter ..... every coming together no matter how innocuous ; someone stays down clutching their back , thigh , ankle , head ... legs twitching . It's become an art form .

Well done Leicester ... heard the commentator say they had eight first teamers unavailable ....... yet they still beat Liverpool ... Salah misses a penalty .

I kind of agree with both parts of this. Xhaka has made his own reputation through his silly and obvious tackles but also I have some sympathy that I do believe that refs go on reputation rather than judging each incident in isolation. Difficult for a ref not to have that preconceived judgement but the best won’t, and we’ve seen it before with someone like Luiz. Happens to other clubs players as well, and also happens in the positive manner with players like Kane avoiding punishment for some awful tackles. As a ref you shouldn’t be going on reputation but 100% most do

Unfortunate we did not get to play today. Would have put more distance from Spurs.

Turin in winter is a lot colder than Manchester.

Just again, for the probably 10th time, I’d just like to stress how much of a cheat Mané is. Every time I watch that guy he endangers opponents and dives like a goodun’ He’s got a lovely innocent face which must be how he gets away with it.

Hold on a minute Tua Pek Kong ......... What about if we had played today ............ and lost ....?

Got to admit I just gave that general hyperbolic spray figuring Italy would have to warmer without checking ,

at least he would get to play many of his away games in warmer climes whereas winter in UK the whole country is a block of ice .

We would have thrashed Wolves for at least 3 goals. They have so many players unavailable. Plus, we are on a roll.

Tua Pek Kong is a Taoist deity

We would have thrashed Wolves for at least 3 goals. They have so many players unavailable. Plus, we are on a roll.

Tua Pek Kong is a Taoist deity

Rich, your post about referees having some players marked made me wonder what Xhaka’s disciplinary record was at Arsenal. In 170 appearances he’s had 45 yellows and 4 reds. That means, on average, he gets 1 booking about every 3.8 matches (45 x 3.8 = 171) and gets sent off once in about every 43 games (4 x 43 = 172).

Is a booking almost every four games and a sending off every 43 games really that much of an issue? I’d be very surprised if there weren’t other modern players with worse disciplinary records than that.

I’m not looking at his record, I’m looking at fouls that he gets carded for that others get away with. I know people will bring up the tackle on Raphina that he didn’t get a yellow for but that is very rare. Xhaka makes silly tackles that are often clear yellows, like those pull backs when a player has dribbled past him so I have no worries about clear yellows being called that way - but plenty of other players are given the benefit of the doubt.
I can still remember Jorginho doing exactly that sort of pull back against us when on a booking in one of Arteta’s first games in charge and getting away with it.
Luiz was the same. Only days after he was sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity for pulling back Mahrez, Ruben Dias did exactly the same to Salah in pretty much the same part of the box and only got a yellow.
Certain players are not given the benefit of the doubt and leeway other players are.

Also looking solely at stats for fouls, yellows and reds could mislead you if you believe all of those to be correct decisions. How many years were Arsenal statistically the dirtiest team in the league for reds and yellows but actually conceded the fewest fouls. There was one year it took about 3-4 fouls for an Arsenal player to be yellow carded and 12-13 for a Liverpool player. That sort of anomaly has more basis than just Arsenal committing more cardable fouls

Xhaka has received 10 red cards and 98 yellows in his career. I think the issue is more about him than any refereeing bias.

Mind you, the legendary Sergio Ramos managed to get his 27th red card last week.

So does that favour Bernard or Rich ....?

I’m not looking at his record, I’m looking at fouls that he gets carded for that others get away with. I know people will bring up the tackle on Raphina that he didn’t get a yellow for but that is very rare. Xhaka makes silly tackles that are often clear yellows, like those pull backs when a player has dribbled past him so I have no worries about clear yellows being called that way - but plenty of other players are given the benefit of the doubt.
I can still remember Jorginho doing exactly that sort of pull back against us when on a booking in one of Arteta’s first games in charge and getting away with it.
Luiz was the same. Only days after he was sent off for denying a clear goalscoring opportunity for pulling back Mahrez, Ruben Dias did exactly the same to Salah in pretty much the same part of the box and only got a yellow.
Certain players are not given the benefit of the doubt and leeway other players are.

Also looking solely at stats for fouls, yellows and reds could mislead you if you believe all of those to be correct decisions. How many years were Arsenal statistically the dirtiest team in the league for reds and yellows but actually conceded the fewest fouls. There was one year it took about 3-4 fouls for an Arsenal player to be yellow carded and 12-13 for a Liverpool player. That sort of anomaly has more basis than just Arsenal committing more cardable fouls

:laughing7: This looks good ..... for all you newbies this has the makings of an Ali v Frasier encounter ..... ten years [ ? ] back who could forget the Bernard v Daz Supply v Demand slugfest .... who knows who won ....... anybodies guess so many hay makers were thrown .

Prior to that ...... "Oh my God how our hearts raced" as Niall and Bernard traded blows over Wiltord v Ljungberg ...again a stalemate . Both would claim otherwise

Full of confidence Bernard decided to move up a class ......... Bernard v Kiwipete [ myself ]

Subject ...... "Was Terry Mancini a major factor in Arsenal staying up 73 74 "[ or was it 74 75 ]

Unfortunately for Bernard I was at my sharpest ..... 2 am NZ time ..... having slurped half a bottle of rum

I reeled off stats from the Arsenal Yearbook , quotes from Bertie Mee / Don Howe ...in essence gave him a host of short jabs , body shots , uppercuts .... NO haymakers , gave him zero chance of using his normal tactics , muddying the water , moving the goal posts

:laughing7: if memory serves me right I think I gave Granty Boy in Australia a drunken call to confirm I was on the right track .

It was no contest .... remember Old Man watching from the sidelines remarked using a tennis analogy .... it was most one sided match since John Newcombe wiped out Wilhem Bungert 6-3 6-1 6-1 in the 67 Wimbledon Final .

Who will win this one ; you ask ......? Well Bernard has the experience and guile but Rich seems to have probably youth and a few clues

Rich, I know you weren’t looking at his disciplinary record, but I think it’s a factor in the discussion. Moreover a relevant factor. I actually agree with you that Xhaka has received cards that other players would have got away with. Despite dec’s post I firmly believe that to be the case and, as you suggest, him getting away with a yellow in the Leeds game is a rarity.

However, whatever his career record which dec was keen to highlight, with a booking every four games and a sending off every 43 games at Arsenal, I’d be surprised if there weren’t other players with worse records than that. It has to be a relevant factor.

Kiwi your memory is so good you may even recall England winning an Ashes match in Australia?

Since he joined Arsenal, no PL player has received more red cards. Does his reputation cause him to occasionally get booked when others might not? Possibly. I think it might be more accurate to say that he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt very often. But he also commits an awful lot of fouls which are nailed on yellows.

Is that on a red card per game basis or simply the overall total, regardless of how many games individuals have played?

I’m not denying Xhaka commits fouls which are nailed on yellows. His stats imply an average of around one every four games. But is that necessarily or always a bad thing? Blimey, look at the bookings Vieira used to get (and I’m not comparing Xhaka to Vieira as a player). A recent booking he got was taking one for the team as the opponent, had he got past him, would have been in an extremely dangerous position.

It isn't a per game stat. Basically, since he joined Arsenal at the start of the 16/17 season, no other player in the PL has received more red cards.

Have this while you're dribbling over your Jaffa cake .....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIIoWFn ... rate61ster

Which surely implies the only players he’s directly comparable with that stat are those who have regularly played in the Premier League for five and a half years. I suggest a per game record is more relevant.

It's just a fairly basic stat and feel free to do a card per game analysis. The guy has 10 reds and 98 yellows in his career. He gets carded a lot and I really don't think he is much of a victim.

For basic you can arguably say meaningless. I already did a sending off per game stat for him since he’s been at Arsenal. It was 1 red card every 43 games, which equates to one every full season plus five games of the next season.

The point you seem to have the most problem is was Rich’s that referees don’t judge every incident equally and can be influenced by who the player is. Without me making any direct reference to Xhaka, as a general point that seems entirely logical. Harry Kane anyone?

The origin of this was Xhaka himself claiming he is treated differently by referees. The refs in Germany must have had the same bias so. Also, I never claimed that referees judge every incident equally. In fact, I actually stated that Xhaka probably doesn't get the benefit of the doubt very often. But that is likely due to the fact that he commits a lot of yellow card offences.

To put it in perspective Mark Noble holds the premier league record for most reds at 5 sendings off and he’s 34 and played his whole life in England.

Didn’t Duncan Ferguson, Patrick Vieira and Richard Dunne all get eight? I thought even Lee Cattermole, Vinnie Jones, Roy Keane and Alan Smith got seven?

The Xhaka red card discussion is an interesting one. So it appears he has gotten four during his Arsenal career, and I found clips of three of them online.

This season against Manchester City:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBg7qgh ... allInDepth
Not a straight leg, and slight contact. I do not think this kind of tackles in general result in red cards in the Premier League.

Then against Burnley, at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t15htJA ... el=HDSport
Let´s just say that I doubt this would be a red card if the other team made a foul like this, especially at their home ground.

And then against Swansea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olDew6c ... =QueDuFoot
I cannot recall seing a red card being given for this in any competition.