Yes even more sideways passing was precisely what we needed last night.

I went to the game last night and it was pretty dire. I came away from the game thinking this simply isnt working under Arteta. We can always point to unfortunate moments in a game (individual errors, injuries, refereeing mistakes etc) but he has had 2 years to develop a playing style yet we are hovering around mid table playing dull, formulaic football. He has made improvements by culling some of the freeloaders, signing some promising young players, and improving the defense, but we are blunt as an attacking force. We are simply less than the sum of our parts and that is squrely on the manager. I would take a chance on someone like Potter as he seems to quietly improve teams.

Yes even more sideways passing was precisely what we needed last night.

I agree. The stats show the idea Xhaka always passes the ball sideways or backwards is a nonsense. However, ignoring that claim (as it should be), Xhaka is often central to us playing more effectively. I still remember DHD’s post a while back (probably quite some while but not long enough to forget it).

For all the moans about him, many of which are appropriate including a lack of pace and a proneness to horrible mistakes, albeit there frequency (as they were with Mustafi) are probably exaggerated, DHD said we routinely look either worse without him or better with him in the team. I cannot recall which way round DHD put it but they add up to the same thing.

Is that a coincidence? Considering the frequency for which it happens I doubt it. I think Rich (himself an occasional critic of Xhaka) provided a rational explanation for it last night.

I have to agree with you both on Arteta. We have spent a lot of money in the last year (or thereabouts) on new players. As a result we have a first eleven that you correctly observed yesterday Hazuki (I caught up with posts I’d missed on the way home from the game) that any club outside the top six would kill for. Recently I listed our back up team as well. We have a young team and squad that is comfortably strong enough to qualify for the Europa League. I would actually say easily instead of comfortably, as there are managers both in the Premier League and abroad who could get more out the players we have than Arteta.

The point that we look as far from being in Europe as it’s possible to be, apart from geographically being in the continent, with the players Arsenal have can in my view be put fairly and squarely down to Arteta.

As reputable a site as sportskeeda.com reporting what 'some fans' are thinking? I can't click on this link quickly enough! That's the unique content of the Steve Gleiber forum that keeps me coming back.

Play Lacazette and Aubameyang! Yeah well we’ve tried that and it doesn’t work.

We miss Xhaka ! Yeah right my arse blokes a liability. You won’t find 2 worse performances than in our first 2 games this season.

Drop Ødegaard! Well sure his vanishing act can frustrating but he’s probably our most creative player bar Saka. If you pull him you are only left with Emiles bluster (which only works half the time I might add)

Bring Martinelli on earlier! start him etc etc. Honestly he’s not the match winner many think he is.

The tactics are negative ! Wot Under what the last 3 managers. I see Unai Emery is getting linked to the Newcastle job. He’d be a great choice

Same old stuff gets bandied out after every mediocre or bad result.

We do miss Xhaka for the balance he gives the team. We all know he will drop a ball and cost us 3-4 games a season and the main reasons I don’t like him are the way he dives in, gets dribbled past and pulls back opponents too frequently and in his bad games doesn’t give the defenders passing lines to get the ball to him. But….it’s the way Arteta wants this team set he is crucial for the balance - so much so that it’s baffling that Arteta doesn’t put another midfielder in his place and try to get him to replicate Xhaka’s instructions as much as possible.
Xhaka stays deeper which allows Partey to engage higher up the pitch - for me this suits Partey’s game more than being the sole screening mid. Xhaka also drops in to that half back left position which allows Tierney to bomb on and subsequently the left winger to drift inside and make closer combinations with the striker and No.10.

Last night Tierney was ineffective. He had a poor game but if he bombs on who is going to cover him? Ødegaard won’t and if Partey drifts that way the entire central mid is left open - like Spurs did against us!
So last night we had neither full back pushing on and couldn’t get the ball in to Ødegaard and Emile Smith Rowe in those half spaces.

My view on Arteta’s way of playing is that for us to get a good performance, not even a great one, just a performance with sustained attacking threat and fluidity needs every component of his side to play well and function exactly as planned. If someone drops off form or a component is missing it all seems to fall apart.

If ever you wanted to hand pick a referee who was going to prove he can make the big decision (even if it’s wrong) you’d pick Mike Dean. I always think with Dean he goes out of his way to give penalties and red cards as if to prove he’s brave enough to make these game changing decisions and not sit on the fence of a non-decision which is a common criticism of referees. And yet with the McArthur foul on Saka he didn’t bring out the red card. The more I watch it the more awful it looks. It’s a shocking challenge and I’m surprised more Arsenal players didn’t kick off at McArthur more, or someone putting in a revenge reducer on him in the second half. Shocking decision

Dean’s performance had nothing whatsoever to do with Arsenal’s disappointing display last night. It’s too easy, in my view, to get sidetracked by individual refereeing mistakes they may or may not have made. These are routinely subjective viewpoints anyway, unless it’s a ball having (or not) crossed a line or some offside calls.

You may consider McArthur’s foul shocking. At the game without the benefit of television replays, I didn’t. A booking maybe. But I’m quite sure Dean could give an entirely rational explanation for the decision he made at the time. I’m equally certain other referees could as well.

It is way more important in my view to look at stuff totally independent of refereeing decisions.

In the summary of last night's press conference on arsenal.com 6-7 questions were about the referee or VAR. I do think McArthur should've been sent off because of how dangerous the challenge was and how far away from the ball he really was (Saka was jumping up to control the ball over his head, McArthur kicked his calf) but that type of questions just puts the focus on all the wrong things.

In individual games a howler from the ref may influence results, but the problem last night wasn't the ref (not saying anyone here is making that claim, by the way). The problem last night was yet another in a long line of poor, uninspired and unimaginative performances from Arsenal. Performances which are the norm rather than the exception these days. We were a better attacking side even during Wenger's last 18 months or so when our attacking performances seemed to take a nosedive. And we were a better attacking side under Emery. From an Arsenal perspective, that should be the only focus.

I fully agree that nobody is making that claim here, not even Rich who in my view goes overboard about referees. I think you’re right about our performances, which are independent of referees. That was the primary objective of my earlier post.

Changing subjects, one thing that I haven’t seen discussed here yet looked possible at the game was whether Ramsdale should have kept one of the Palace goals out. It was clearly a hard hit shot, but appeared pretty well straight at Ramsdale. But my seat isn’t directly behind either goal. I tend to see shots, even firmly struck ones, that are almost straight at the keeper as not only saveable but as goalkeeping errors when they go in.

Am I being unfair and it wasn’t almost straight at Ramsdale?

Sorry, I don't miss Xhaka at all. If we need Xhaka to play well/better, then pack it in.

I wonder if McArthur went momentarily blind or suffered some sort of hallucination.

I think it would be slightly harsh to blame Ramsdale. It wasn't great keeping and you would want a top level keeper to save it but it was a hard shot and Edouard was very close.

Ben White's defending for the goal was abysmal. He backed off into the box instead of engaging Edouard. Really terrible.

Same old stuff happens on the pitch so it is hardly surprising that the same criticisms are raised.

Thought the same with Gabriel for their first goal. It's not easy when a player comes at a standing defender with speed (although in Benteke's case, 'speed' is very much a relative term) but Gabriel just let him have a free shot way too easily in my opinion.

Thanks for the Ramsdale comment dec. Although your thoughts do make me wonder if I was being unfair, even if I was slightly harsh. I would like him to be a top level keeper and despite being very close, it wasn’t point blank.

I agree wholly with you suggestion about White’s defending though. It was very poor defending to the extent that I don’t feel your use of the word ‘abysmal’ is grossly over the top.

I’d agree about Gabriel for that goal too.

I would read the name Alan Sugar and Tottenham and knew nothing about the man. I thoroughly enjoyed this piece on him. Especially his saying the worst mistake of his life were the years dedicated running the club. You all probably know his story, but its new to me.

(Warrior for whatever reason, probably my own fault, the youtube URL didn't work)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeQ7i9_rA6g&t=653s

The difference between the two was that Gabriel got caught square on. That's obviously bad defending, but if you get caught in that position it is really difficult to adjust and a forward can leave you for dead. With White he just kept backing off which was ridiculous.

I think that is the mot juste.

Gabriel's was bit more forgivable because it happened so quickly and one could argue that he didn't have time to react.

Ramsdale's non-save would be in that grey area ... it would have been a very good save but one a top class keeper would expect to make.

Blaming Ramsdale for that goal is absolutely searching. Like Blaming seaman for the goal giggs scored againest him in that semi.

Totally let down by his defence. Let the guy take a free hit ffs

Yes, you can't legislate for Partey losing the ball in that area. Gabriel was absolutely sold there.

Obviously the blame for our goals is on Partey and White.

Its not blaming him to say that it was savable but would have take a great save. What is your point actually? Are you claiming it was unsavable? I'd bet that Ramsdale wouldn't.

Getting overrun in midfield is not my idea of fun. Each to his own, I suppose.

I have only seen highlights but it looked like two midfield errors caused the goals more than defensive ones? Ironic that our opponents are managed by a man who rarely lost a midfield duel. Also I can't accept lucky Arsenal for scoring in added time - a goal in the first five minutes and who calls that lucky? Palace are no pushovers, so great effort for the guys to keep at it right to the whistle in yet another London derby. As Tony used to say, that point gained might just be the one that matters in the end.

I think Ramsdale is anticipating the shot across him in to the far corner, which is the percentage shot for a striker in that position. Ramsdale shifts his body weight on to his right side and then had to try to arch back to his left. If we’re laying blame for that goal Ramsdale is 3rd behind Lokonga and White

Friday’s line up will be interesting. The back 5 and Partey will almost certainly play. Lacazette’s cameo should earn him a start in normal circumstances but it would be harsh to drop Aubameyang. So do we go back to Aubameyang wide left?
I think we must bring Lokonga or even AMN in to a central midfield 2, we’ve not got the balance right with Emile Smith Rowe and Ødegaard playing as the advanced 8’s. City did this with De Bruyne and Silva but both are more comfortable playing centrally whereas Emile Smith Rowe and Ødegaard aren’t really central midfielders they are much more attacking.

... you can’t blame the keeper for the goal. Free hit inside the penalty area.

... said a few weeks back. A matter of games till our fans started questioning him.

Look at their second goal, I can't help thinking that if Xhaka had been playing, our the entire left side wouldn't have been vacant like that. White's efforts weren't great, but he was pretty isolated.

Saw someone post this online. Partey trying to hold the midfield on his own with quite frankly an impossible job to progress the ball forward.

We don't play through midfield. It is all out wide until we get to the opposition box when the horseshoe kicks in. Last season it was either Saka or Tierney carrying the attacking threat. Aubameyang is one the best players around at getting onto a throughball, but it just doesn't happen anymore.

That photo is an extreme example and the frustrating thing is that when a team starts to get on top in midfield, Arteta pulls the forwards back. Aubameyang put in a shift last night but spent much of the game taking up a defensive position midway inside our half.

I don’t think we played very well for great slabs of the game. There was little sustainable possession that put pressure on Palace. I watched about 45 minutes of the game in total over 2 periods and then listened to Arsenal radio , while walking the dog in the middle. Even they expressed concern at how much space Benteke was given and repeated time and again that we did not play well when not in possession. It was a pretty poor performance and Palace looked like they had a game plan. They were not overwhelmed by an early goal and really closed us down time and again. This game was very concerning as to how other teams are already working us out and Arteta cannot respond tactically. I said I would give him to the half way part of the season; what is concerning is how quickly Viera has got a Palace team playing well even with players of lesser ability and how Arteta has failed to get an effective style in 2 years.

Hey Bernard - Did you get a PM from Juph ?

He was trying to contact you I believe.

True we are way off being a top team right now, but unless we start plummeting towards relegation, I can't see much point in ditching the manager in December or January. It is too disruptive - end of season is the time to review. Who might come in is another question.

I think we missed a trick when Arsene left by not appointing a guy with big experience - Rafa would have been my choice. Emery felt like a gamble and Arteta likewise. I'd like to see a big character in charge - Mancini would do for me, if only for his dress sense.

Mind you over the years our club has often turned to relatively inexperienced or unlikely managers, sometimes with great success - Allison, Whittaker, Mee, George and Arsene - or not - Crayston, Swindin, Wright and Neill.

Hi Rog. No there’s nothing (there’s a 0) against the new messages thing you click to read personal messages. I just clicked it anyway and there’s nothing from him, so the 0 presumably shouldn’t be a 1.

I agree we should have appointed an experienced manager. The problem is the longer we are out of Europa/CL we will become a long term mid table team, if not already there. Maybe eventually Arteta will get the team playing to potential, but I just feel he is flawed.

The midfield just didn’t work. I thought Partey did well despite the mistake.

Smith Rowe and Ødegaard just don’t seem the right type of players for the system where one midfielder sits and they need to be responsible for tracking back. They don’t seem naturally inclined to get in the middle of the park and compete.

Ødegaard actually seemed to be hiding on the right flank. Honestly he hasn’t impressed since he’s been back and the free kick at Burnley aside he hasn’t really looked capable of providing the creativity we need.

Saw that rumour that we have offered to swap Lacazette for Bale in January. Probably nonsense but as mad as the suggestion is I could see the logic in doing something like that to temporarily bring experience into the side as we have little composure and know how in attacking areas.

Also there’s nothing on the bench so Saka is going to have to play an awful lot of football.