Especially when they weren't really marble.

Come to think of it, has Vieira ever lost to Tottenham? That will change as manager of Palace but I can't recall us losing to them while he was wearing our shirt or if so, while he was starting.

Mourinho can say the same about Wenger I think, at least in the league. I think, but not 100 percent sure.

As an Arsenal player, Vieira played against Tottenham 19 times. He won 10 times, drew seven and lost just twice.

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/09/12/a ... m-hotspur/

Strange though. I can’t recall him losing. Perhaps it was in the cup?

I don’t think Law ever called Arsenal the English equivalent of Real Madrid. As you correctly point out, their European record meant we weren’t. What he said was words to the effect that we were like the English Real Madrid at that time. I take that as referring to the size, reputation and stature of the club alongside others in England. Namely, one of the biggest domestically. That’s what I take it to mean.

Although it was before my time, from what my dad told me about the Swindin and Wright eras (Mee was my first manager), I just don’t think Arsenal has ever become a middling club since prior to the 1930s. Even if we’ve had mediocre teams and poor players. We clearly weren’t a top side in the Swindin and Wright period. But we were surely still a top club.

I’ll go back to my point about Manchester United (who you said had become middling at some point) and Glasgow Rangers. Manchester United’s relegation was certainly in my time. Even that didn’t make them a middling club. They came back too quickly to become middling, even though they were obviously quite a poor side when they went down.

When Rangers were relegated to the lowest (presumably professional) tier of the Scottish league structure, even that wasn’t enough for them to become a middling club. They were still one of Scotland’s two top clubs.

I honestly suspect you’re associating the status of a club too much with the quality of its team at any point. Every club, however much a top club it is, will have spells when their sides are ordinary. Celtic and Rangers have both won the Scottish title nine times in a row in my time. During those periods of domestic domination by one half of the Old Firm, it didn’t make their Glasgow rival anything other than one (so the other) of Scotland’s two top clubs. Manchester United’s relegation didn’t make them a middling club in my view, and nor did Tottenham’s who are smaller than them.

In my view the status of a club may take generations to change. Many, many years. If Rangers hadn’t worked their way up back to the Scottish Premiership with successive promotions and had stayed in Scotland’s lowest league tier for a number of decades, it may well have eventually happened. Had Manchester United gone down instead of up from their season in the second division and were still in the third or fourth tier now approaching almost fifty years later, they may well have become a middling club. It never happened, and in my view nor did they ever become a middling club in my lifetime.

You see ltg? You made me have to do research.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9973149/Patrick-Vieira-bullied-Tottenham-years-Arsenal-hes-Crystal-Palace.html

In 16 appearances against Tottenham for the Gunners spanning nearly nine years, the Frenchman only lost once, with Arsenal winning nine of those. Vieira would often save his best for Spurs....

In November 1999, Vieira tasted defeat against Tottenham for the first and only time as an Arsenal player, but he did score his first goal against Spurs with a consolation strike after Steffen Iversen and Tim Sherwood had netted.

Can't find a video but 2 red cards for us!

1https://www.premierleague.com/match/3042

Bit more Charlie Patino

Don't get the fawning over Bielsa. Leeds play pretty football but always look like they could concede 4 or 5 whenever I've seen them play.

Seems Pepé quickly deleted a tongue-in-cheek post on Instagram about Arsenal as a joke, being in a relegation scrap. Even after the 1-0 win against Norwich.

It’s Phil Jones he puts on his arse too. Impressive stuff.

Once he's up to the demands physically, Patino looks ready to come into the first team squad.
Though so many seem that way from their highlights.

It takes time. But I still think you confuse top with big. A top club is one that can be expected to compete to be top in most years. A big club has the money/glamour/status to have a reasonable expectation of recovering top status if it has lost it. In the 1950s, Wolves were the topmost club. They moved from being a top club to being a big club, then to being a sleeping giant. I don't think you'd really count them as big any more, even though they're back in the top division.

ManU have been a big club for a very long time. They have cemented the history and Ferguson success into a giant commercial income sufficient to give them a very high chance of regaining top status whenever form drops off. They were managed by Gill and Woodward when we had Edelman, old school Friar and Gazidis and were never quite as slick. In some ways, Chelsea have been even more successful in taking on our footballing strategy of recruiting talented players very young and developing them and converting it to a highly profitable enterprise; which maybe we re hoping to imitate. That gives them a higher chance of staying big even when the dope is withdrawn.

At the moment, with the London clubs, I'd say Chelsea are a top club, Arsenal and Spurs are nearly clubs and West Ham are middling. Crystal Palace are bottom half and Brentford are relegation fodder (obviously they are trying to improve this status).
Switching to big, I'd put Arsenal top, Spurs next, then Chelsea, West Ham and Palace.
Our status being much enhanced by Wenger. Arguably, Graham was as successful a manager as Wenger (in 9 years he won two titles, one FA Cup, two League Cups and one European Cup-Winners Cup) but his teams never had the style to enhance status above the simple success level: a very good manager for topness but not as great for bigness.

As I said it’s down to definitions. I actually believe it’s you getting confused by top and big. Didn’t you define top by being at the top, or I presume close to it. For me that’s a problem with your definition. As I’ve said I think you’re associating top too much with the quality of the current team. In my view a club can be a top club even when it’s team clearly isn’t going to win the league. Hence I feel a club can be defined as a top club even in periods when they have poorer teams.

You blatantly said Manchester United were a middling club at some point in living memory. In my view, no they weren’t. Even when they had a poor enough team to be relegated they were still a top club. Nor have Arsenal been a middling club which you also said we’d been in living memory, and we’re not as big a club as Manchester United.

Top, middling or bottom? For me fan base size is possibly the most vital factor in deciding that. Not the current team. I think when one talks of bigness, wealth comes more into the equation. Sure, fan base size can change but often that takes generations.

According to every estimate I’ve seen Arsenal used to have a larger fan base than Chelsea. But their success since Abramovich took over has changed that because trophy wins are one of the most crucial factors driving fan base size. Arsenal have overall won more trophies than Chelsea but the AST said because most of Chelsea’s trophies have come more recently, they have a fan base with an average younger age than Arsenal. One therefore has to assume Arsenal’s fan base are dying off at a faster rate than Chelsea’s.

Available wealth (I say available because the Kroenke family is wealthier than Abramovich) as well as fan base size is why I think Chelsea are now London’s biggest and topmost club, with Arsenal second, Tottenham third, West Ham fourth and Crystal Palace fifth. Your order for ‘biggest’ was Arsenal first, Tottenham second, Chelsea third, West Ham fourth and Crystal Palace fifth. I don’t even think Brentford are as big as Fulham. This season Fulham are in a division below Brentford.

I'm excited about him. Fabregas wasn't much bigger if that. But we don't want to rush the lad.

PS: I recall seeing Fabregas in a reserve game in many years ago, maybe 2004, and there was a huge buzz about him. I wasn't impressed actually. But to be fair, wasn't much for him to do in that game. Ended up being my favorite player. He was my 'Liam Brady' to some extent.

Not this?

Watching Everton:Burnley Dyche has Burnley very well organised and competitive

We will have to be very smart how we play....they're very physical as you all know and their set pieces will put us under extreme pressure. Barnes is practically in Pickford's jersey every time they get a corner

We have to stop the supply to the front men and be quick and incisive on the break.

Tarkowski just took out Richarlison with the worst two footed challenge you have ever seen.

Guess what the ref (Atkinson) did..................

Let's hope Martin Atkinson isn't the ref. Tarkowski cleaned out Richarlison and nothing given. Two minutes later another one of them went through the back of Townsend. No yellow. When you consider what a tackle from behind did to Harvey Elliot yesterday, it is disgraceful refereeing. Benitez was quite rightly having a go at him.

And now 1:0 Burnley and they just about deserve it It'll be a battle Saturday...

It was a tough tackle....reminds me of Hackney Marshes circa 1968 and should have drawn a yellow.....but......Richarlison is a tosser and had got them riled up with a late challenge on Mee earlier ....this was afters from Tarkowski....my logic is faulty though....it shouldn't count who the recipient is....tosser or not its a bad tackle...

What we have to look forward to I guess

Oh now 1:1

Brilliant turn around from Everton. 3 super goals.

Never saw this coming 3:1 Everton Gray and Townsend who cost about as much as Pépé's shoelace doing the business for Everton. I do think Benitez is a top class coach....he'd have been good for us.

Better Arsenal at least try and make an attempt to do to Burnley at 3-1 this weekend, like Everton's quick succesion goals.

Townsend's goal was a screamer but the rest was about quick passing. Everton upped the tempo and cut them open

Townsend's goal was good. Passing was swift throughout in second half. Exciting stuff.

Yeah, I'm trolling...lol...I was >>>this close<<< to makkng it my avatar.

I'll be in LA late this year and will drive past 'the stadium Arsenal built'

We are a joke because we have a joke of an owner. And the damage is for decades. Now I know what it feels like to be a Man Utd fan.

Okay, we've got a win under our belts. The only game that Arteta can get away with a draw right now is the NLD. He has to win this game.

https://dean-magazine.ghost.io/the-cold ... ssion=true

This is a long but good read. It is a Liverpool fans take on the toxic Twitter fan. Written about Liverpool but could apply to any club, especially a big club.

I read a take about Aubameyang and having fans back in the stadium. The theory is that Aubameyang is a showman and will thrive more with the fans to please. It pointed to his cars and clothes etc to highlight this personality trait.
Of course it ignores how brilliant Aubameyang was in that fa cup run behind closed doors but it does make some sense.

We’ll certainly see a swing back to much more normal home/away results this season compared to last where I think there ended up being more away wins than home

This season there will be constant comparisons between Tomiyasu and Emerson Royal at spurs. Both clubs were linked with both players and apparently Arteta forced through Tomiyasu ahead of Royal because he considered him a better bit for the system.
Total is far more attack minded but weaker defensively, zaha buried him at the weekend. Let’s hope Arteta got this one right

But was it softer than Xhaka's same ref worse tackle imo and not even a yellow card?

Surely has to be perceived bias, if not too late,we should appeal, even though I don't think he should be in our current team atm.

Just discovered 'Professor T'. It's a theme that is repeated often (Endeavour, etc.) and these types of crime dramas seem to be trying to repeat the stoic, socially awkward, Sherlock Holmes. The protagonists are stereotypical British: aloof, cold, oxford English, etc.

The character seems to be a slightly exaggerated depiction of what I envision a forum member or two on here to be like.

Just a guess, but I think once we start getting better service to players like Aubameyang who are in good positions in the 18 yard box, instinct will kick in and he and others will score more. Pépé can be lethal like Willian was at Chelsea or a bit closer to how Reyes and Eduardo was for us in time.

What is it?

Edit: I see now. It’s Los Angeles Rams.

https://twitter.com/alleymatty/status/1 ... 90753?s=21

Are you talking about this tackle? For me it is a clear yellow card, Xhaka’s was worse because it would be deemed Xhaka was less in control as he jumped in more two footed. But the way refs are officiating games this season is dangerous and you just know that we’ll be punished where others aren’t and opponents will be allowed to kick lumps out of us. Expect it next weekend away to Burnley where the ref will play on the emotion of the crowd.

I would like to hear the ref after the Everton match explain why he deemed that challenge by Tarkowski not worthy of a foul or a yellow card.

Hi Rich. I think the only thing guaranteed is that you will perceive Arsenal as being treated unfairly by referees. To be honest, I have a lot of respect for many of your opinions on the club, even though I don’t think they’re all correct.

But I’ve long felt you ‘lose it’ with referees in Arsenal’s games to the extent that I think it’s verging on a persecution complex. That’s why, although I didn’t comment myself, I was comfortable in seeing Gunfire (in a more forceful way) and bromley (in a far more gentle manner) point out that you were going so far over the top about a refereeing performance in a recent Arsenal game that it was almost ridiculous. Of course you’re not the only one. But you are surely the most extreme example here, at least since lomekian has moved on.

I didn’t watch a single second of the Everton Burnley game (there was more chance of me watching an episode of either Coronation Street or Eastenders than that game simply because it lasts much less time). They’re two clubs I have neither any real affinity or dislike for so I couldn’t give a damn about the result. But I found the comments about the tackle, without seeing it, more likely to be fair and rational (because it didn’t involve Arsenal) than I bet you’d have found on an Everton or Burnley forum.

I simply don’t think the internet chat rooms of teams playing a match are the place to go for unbiased or reasonable thoughts on a referee’s performance. For example I’d think you’d be immeasurably more likely to find sensible remarks on the referee in a North London derby on a Newcastle chat room than you would on either an Arsenal or Tottenham forum.

Are these the only two ways you can envisage spending your time?

I've found myself not knowing nor caring about the CL. I didn't even know they were playing. I have completely zoned out. I don't even think I watched the final last time. Sour grapes that we aren't in it? Maybe. Football itself is not worth watching as it once was? Perhaps a little. All I know is my interest has waned.