I think it sort of was! Xhaka basically stepped up into midfield and played quarterback and against Newcastle you can just about get away with it. After the terror of him playing that whole second half on a yellow I thought he actually did really well, but Gabriel covered there a few times which I don’t think was by accident. Whoever was on Newcastle’s right wing thought I’ll have a run at Xhaka and get him sent off, found themselves up against a brick wall in Gab and he showed that at his best he’s a phenomenal one on one defender. I still think he and one other is our best option as the CB pairing. I wonder again what’s going to happens with Saliba at the end of the season...

I mean if you can’t celebrate the Arsenal breaking the shackles of 11th place and rising like mighty phoenixes to, er, 9th then you sir, and I’m sorry to use this strong language, are a curmudgeon.

Unbelievable that Fleck didn't even getting a card from deliberately rucking Lo Celso's face in the Totts match. All the VAR replays clearly showed Fleck looking down at where his feet were and forcefully stamping down to ensure contact was made. If he really didn't want to make contact he could have easily lifted his legs and gone to ground. Diabolical VAR yet again.

Yeah I like Gabriel too. Sometimes gets a bit overextended when coming for balls over the top but overall has good strength, tackling and positional awareness. I haven't taken note of his aerial ability in the box but at the moment I think the best pairing is probably him and Holding or dare I say it, Luiz.

Geez that's a bit harsh. This is a family venue.

It was 50 years ago today......

For Thursday I think Arteta will pick the following team
Leno, chambers, holding, mari, xhaka, partey, elneny, saka, smith Rowe, Pépé, Aubameyang
That should be enough to qualify if we play as we can, but we could easily turn up and put in another stinker.

I’d prefer to see Bellerin start and Xhaka in midfield, I’d probably go Ødegaard over smith Rowe as well depending on Ødegaard’s fitness

One of the reasons Xhaka didn’t get over exposed at left back was because Newcastle’s right winger was constantly being dragged back by the direct running of Martinelli. Attack was definitely the best form of defence there

That Sgt.Pepper taught the band to play?

Ray Kennedy. White Hart Lane. Part 1 of 2

You have the same sense of humour as me. The same things shot into my mind.

MOTD last night. Man City have spent about 400 million more than arsenal in the last 8 years.

Daft sport

Was at both games. Brilliant week. I still have my rosette from the final!
(Younger forumites may need to look that word up)

You and me both Andy.

I have the match programme from Wembley (though fuknose where). I did have a sod of grass clawed with my bare hands from the WHL pitch - only time I’ve ever joined a pitch invasion - but when if decayed to dust, my mum binned it.

I think Bern may have been there too. Anyone else?

So was I. My dad worked in Tottenham for a rubber company. The office where he worked was in Tottenham Hale, but they had a warehouse or factory in Tottenham High Road, a short walk from the ground. To save time, he took me into work that day, spending most of it in his Tottenham Hale office before driving to the factory or warehouse to park and walk down to the ground.

I’ve no idea now if 3rd May 1971 was a UK bank holiday (as today is), but if it wasn’t it must have been a parentally approved (or driven) day of truant or bunking off school.

Wrote my last post before seeing yours.

Getting in WHL that night was tough. The crowds were incredible. I just got swept along... think my feet were both off the ground at some point Don’t remember too much about the game.Apart from Rays header I remember Gilzean going in hard on Bob Wilson at one point. After the game I followed the crowd and got up near the Director’s box
I have a lovely photo somewhere of Billy Nicholson congratulating Bertie Mee
Nice touch from a classy guy.
If memory serves we won the double and Spurs the League Cup. Did Chelsea win the Cup Winners Cup in a replay that year also.
Good year for London clubs

I was there with three of my mates; we’re spread around the UK and Europe these days but we still ZOOM every week and meet up when we can. We’d all taken the afternoon off work though other mates couldn’t so missed out. We got to the ground at about 3:00 I think and were shocked and amazed that massive queues (several deep) had already formed; they must’ve got there at dawn.

As we were walking to join the back of the queue it became obvious we probably wouldn’t get in. Then amazingly, a police horse reared up causing general chaos and an almighty scramble; when things calmed down, we were all safely in the queue several hours higher we should’ve been. Apologies to the four who missed out. The rumour at the time was that maybe up to 100,000 were locked out.

Clubs like city and chavski would be midtable without their sugar daddy owners, that is clear.

Not sure how it can be called sport really.

I'd love some sort of 50+1 model in the EPL but prizing 'assets' away from billionaires under a tory government won't be easy.

I do wonder how this all is going to play out, but facing decades ahead under KSE while oligarchs and Arab states buy up success is not an option!.

And what drives the future of the Spanish clubs after the ESL failed.

Apparently Barcelona owe 1.4 billion. How will they ever pay such an amount back ?

9th does have a nice ring to it. 8th (or perish the thought, 7th) smacks of elitism.

You and Bored probably derive more pleasure from our superb swoop into 9th, than the average Bayern fan would from winning their 9th title on the trot. Supporting a serial winning team is like being a crack addict. One stops deriving any pleasure from winning and merely experiences grumpiness when deprived of winning the Champions League every year.

Looks like Bernard's asleep at the wheel.

Happy dreams.

May or may not detract from the message. Sunday MU fans just carried over frustrations, anger from ESL fallout Owners need to stop pretending their constituents don't exist. England fans prefer to have owners sell up. At least the Glazers , Kroenke for Arsenal. Or if they don't, owners need to revise their operations. Thing is owners still get plenty of revenue from overseas.

Sorry, you’ve lost me.

The problem is the owners don't have to do this, and don't want to. And the law is on the side of property.

When you sell your soul to the devil the deal doesn't include a buyback clause. If after you've enjoyed all the fornication and debauchery and intoxication, you don't find the ensuring fire and brimstone to your tastes, that is just too bad.

I see that Daniel Ek and his consortium are supposedly about to make a £1.8 billion offer to Stan Kroenke for Arsenal. However, I just don't see him selling out unless a significantly bigger offer is made.

Such is the value of Arsenal there are a very limited number of parties who could even envisage such a deal, and probably an even smaller number who could do so without massive borrowing. That then begs the question as to where the money would come from if a huge offer was made by an outside party, would they have to borrow heavily (using the club as collateral) and then have to service the debt in the way the Glazers did when they bought Man U? If that was the case would we be any better off?.

I think Daniel is as much a businessman as Stan is. If he buys the club with debt, I don't see us as better off. Arsenal football club becomes a commodity to be traded by businessman to businessman. My take.

Unfortunately, this is the new world order. That moment when the Olympic Games allowed professionals into the Games, was the day sports changed forever.

So if their starting offer is 1.8 they might anticipate a final offer of around 2.2 ? Assuming they have given themselves 25 percent to negotiate ? They will know the first offer is never accepted.

You never know right ?

The protests need to continue in parallel and I thought Henry’s comments on sky yesterday were telling.

You are aware that Kroenke bought Arsenal with a massive loan from Deutsche bank ?

Unless your being bought by a sheik it’s a likely consortium with loans and financing. The problem with Kroenke has never been relating to finances as far as im concerned more so that he’s incompetent doesn’t understand football and tries to make decisions based on his own irrelevant expertise.

American sports news is pretty accurate. ESPN, Fox Sports, all have former coaches, players, etc. who are well connected and informed with those in the league at every level including the board room.

Rumors are pretty much fact. I notice that every news item about Arsenal possibly up for sale is in the British press. The American sports press only reconfirms that the Kroenke's say they aren't selling.

I think its mostly wishful thinking. If the Kroenke's sell, I'm pretty confident its not because of the present protests both at the stadium and what Man Utd is going through. Stan is detached from the club: physically, even emotionally. We are items on a balance sheet. If he has any emotional attachment its for the Rams (and I doubt that too much). His alma mater's sports program is likely the only team he will give money to that is not business.

So, if he sells its business related reasons. Not because he feel pressured by fans. That could change if the fans totally revolt, but as I said, he sees a long waiting list for season tickets and must conclude, any protests will be symbolic and not affect revenue.

Sadly, I think the last week has shown just how much the EPL is now controlled by American businessmen, and how little they care what we ‘Legacy Fans’ think or do. Despite the weasel-worded apologies (more like justifications in most cases) they don’t care about Government blustering or media condemnation. Despite some of the constituent clubs lagging behind others, the overall profitability of the Big 6 is still heading skywards. They will just keep schtum and tough it out. Never complain; never explain.

The Glazers, Kroenke and Fenway will never sell until such time as it turns a greater profit for them to do so. Currently, if reports are to be believed, Man U is worth about £3.05bn; the Glazers’ long-term vision is to grow that to £7.2bn ($10bn). In business terms, the Glazers have played an absolute blinder and many investors think they are gods. The six Glaziers have paid themselves £100m since 2015 for no particular outlay. That's clever. They certainly won’t be selling or relinquishing control any time soon. Kroenke and Fenway see those numbers and agree that sort of growth is realistic and is eminently deliverable. They are all the legal and legitimate owners of the clubs in question. There is nothing that Stock Exchanges, Governments, the FA, the EPL, UEFA or FIFA can do about it.

They will not be shifted until it suits them.

Yes, and attempts to kill off the ESL idea by the less-elite Premiership clubs will most likely strengthen the determination of elite clubs to make it happen. From their point of view it is too big of an economic winner to resist in the long run. The box belonging to Pandora was opened back in 1992, never to be closed again.

Usmanov wanted credibility and would have spent to have it. He'd also be easier to remove. He'd want to avoid bad press.

I stopped watching American sports 20 years ago because of men like Kroenke. I knew given time, they'd ruin the sport.

The ESL isn't dead. It's just biding its time to re-appear when the planets align and trust me, it will. in the modern era, the American 1 percent ALWAYS gets its way. Americans waned on the war in Iraq and Afghanistan before Bush ended his presidency. 5 years is the average life span Americans have when it comes to war in terms of the general public's interest. By 2006, even the right wing electorate weren't going to put up a fight if the voices to get out were strong. A big part of Obama's appeal was that he was one of the few souls in the Senate to be against the war when it wasn't the popular thing to do. And being the son of a Kenyan moslem, he was called unAmerican. The fact that we are in both wars for 20 years when its very unpopular shows you just how strong the corporations that made literally trillions off it are.

You think they will give up so easily? I ran off some numbers before. The NFL is in the midst of an 11 year, 89 billion dollar tv deal. A sport that only Americans watch. They have done the math. The EPL is very popular in America as a tv spectator sport. When I first started watching football I was one of maybe 2 or 3 Americans at a British pub in LA, getting up at 4am for noon kick offs, paying a cover charge to watch it via satelite.

Now, its regular tv fare and there are 3 or 4 games on football Saturdays. I'm guessing, if done right, this super league could get at least 10 billion US a season. And I'm being conservative with that number. And I promise you, you will see rule changes not to improve the game but to squeeze every shilling they can out of the game. They will ruin it and make it unrecognizable. I promise you that. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind.

The sports I grew up with watching with the same childhood love that you all had at the same age for The Arsenal and football in general, the sports I love are gone. I can't sit through a whole game. I can't. Uni sports are the last bastions, the 'Maginot line' and they are going the way of their professional brethren.

I'm sad, angry and disgusted. Discovering football as an adult was transformative for me. Especially the English game. I saw other leagues and immediately they couldn't compare to the English version. The Bundesliga and the Eredivisie were decent but nothing came close to the aura of a game. I never, ever thought I could miss an Arsenal match. I had a job that I traveled around the country in 2003-2006. When I got my travel itinerary the first thing I did was look for British or Irish pubs and call them to see if they carried the games. I've missed flights to watch us. I'm not trying sell my Arsenal pedigree. You've all known me for 20 years and know being liked isn't a concern to me. The point is I have missed some games. I've missed league games. It's not just that we aren't as good. I'm not saying it as a fair weather fan. I just see the game changing, I know what kind of owner we have and what little care he has for the club I love dearly.

And we'll be stuck with them for 2 generations. I knew no one would understand. US Martin would have understood. Andy Green perhaps. He's been in America long enough. American sports owners these days suck as the young people in LA say. Many years ago, they were similar to football owners. A born and bred local who made it good. Became a millionaire. Was likely on the terraces as a kid and bought his local club out of love and civic duty and understood he was caretaker. He would spend his own money if necessary to make them viable.

Now the EPL has ownership similar to what the NBA and NFL started doing in the 90s. I hope I can find access to Championship (although that is changing) and lower division football on some package. At least the passion and love is still there. At least the owners still seem to care.

Hi OMOH,

100% spot-on.

I saw an interview with John Barnes in which he made the very important point that people are talking about the fans winning but in reality the only winners are Sky, BT and UEFA.

The ordinary fans hasn't won anything.........ticket prices aren't going down, replica kit and merchandise prices aren't going down, Sky and BT's subscription charges aren't going down. All that has happened is that the greedy sods at UEFA, Sky and BT have averted the gravy train from leaving their station.

Are there any billionaires who buy football clubs who know anything about running football clubs? I can't think of any. But the best billionaire owners know about running successful businesses and a pretty simple rule is if you can't do it yourself you find the best people who can do it. That is what City and Chelsea have done.

The problem with Kronke is he will see his involvement in Arsenal as a huge success, if he sold tomorrow he's doubled his investment in 10 years (I think?), and he's done that by basically just not doing anything. The overall product of football has grown and his investment is just been swept along in the wave.

After determining ability to buy a club, the biggest question after that for any fan is WHY they want to buy the club.

One of the reasons why its tough to buy an NFL team is 1) there are only 30 of them and they only come up for sale ever so often. In America at least, its the ultimate toy. There are over 600 billionaires in America. A select club in a country with over 330 million people and they look at you with awe in your presence. But among your peers, you're not special. 600 or so is a very big group and you all know each other or know of each other. No matter how disparate your businesses are, you run into most of your peers.

That said, owning an NFL team is seen as one of the things that sets you apart from your fellow billionaires. Bezos may be worth 5 x the amount of billions you have but he doesn't own an NFL team. You do. Only 30 of you can have it. He'll have to wait and...he'll have to be approved and you are one of the votes.

The NFL owners take a vote. It doesn't matter how much money you have. You know most of the owners and some of them may hold a personal grudge for a previous business deal stolen, or something petty. Doesn't matter. Bezos, for all his billions will have to kiss some azzes to buy a club. That's what sets the NFL apart.

The pettiness aside, the one advantage this process has over the EPL is that the league doesn't have as much of a say it seems as their NFL brethren. In the NFL the owners at large protects the interests of the smaller teams who may be desperate to be sold but in doing so invite in the select club someone who is bad for them all as a collective. This isn't as strong as it once was as evidenced by the league presently but for a long time it worked until greed got the best of them. The EPL needs to do better in that regard.

Nothing Bernard. Saw you'd been on here for a long while is all.

Fans fighting a losing battle it seems. The war was already won on paper.

Watched some of the CL match. We are a light year behind both these teams, not just 30 points. I don’t think Arteta has got our team playing anywhere like these teams, even for 10 minutes in any game this season. I wonder if Aubameyang will start at CF in the Europa or if he insists he plays wing. That would of course require him to admit he has been wrong.

The fairytale of those two plucky underdogs fighting to get to the promised land that their great leadership* indomitable spirit** and excellent squad building*** has won for them just warms my heart. What’s stopping us from being more like them??

* money
** money
*** money

You cynical man you.