Supporters Forum

Bernard · **#530961**

dec wrote:

Bernard wrote:

Rich, I know you weren’t looking at his disciplinary record, but I think it’s a factor in the discussion. Moreover a relevant factor. I actually agree with you that Xhaka has received cards that other players would have got away with. Despite dec’s post I firmly believe that to be the case and, as you suggest, him getting away with a yellow in the Leeds game is a rarity.

However, whatever his career record which dec was keen to highlight, with a booking every four games and a sending off every 43 games at Arsenal, I’d be surprised if there weren’t other players with worse records than that. It has to be a relevant factor.

Since he joined Arsenal, no PL player has received more red cards. Does his reputation cause him to occasionally get booked when others might not? Possibly. I think it might be more accurate to say that he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt very often. But he also commits an awful lot of fouls which are nailed on yellows.

Is that on a red card per game basis or simply the overall total, regardless of how many games individuals have played?

I’m not denying Xhaka commits fouls which are nailed on yellows. His stats imply an average of around one every four games. But is that necessarily or always a bad thing? Blimey, look at the bookings Vieira used to get (and I’m not comparing Xhaka to Vieira as a player). A recent booking he got was taking one for the team as the opponent, had he got past him, would have been in an extremely dangerous position.

dec · **#530962**

Bernard wrote:

dec wrote:

Since he joined Arsenal, no PL player has received more red cards. Does his reputation cause him to occasionally get booked when others might not? Possibly. I think it might be more accurate to say that he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt very often. But he also commits an awful lot of fouls which are nailed on yellows.

Is that on a red card per game basis or simply the overall total, regardless of how many games individuals have played?

I’m not denying Xhaka commits fouls which are nailed on yellows. His stats imply an average of around one every four games. But is that necessarily or always a bad thing? Blimey, look at the bookings Vieira used to get (and I’m not comparing Xhaka to Vieira as a player). A recent booking he got was taking one for the team as the opponent, had he got past him, would have been in an extremely dangerous position.

It isn't a per game stat. Basically, since he joined Arsenal at the start of the 16/17 season, no other player in the PL has received more red cards.

Bernard · **#530963**

dec wrote:

It isn't a per game stat. Basically, since he joined Arsenal at the start of the 16/17 season, no other player in the PL has received more red cards.

Which surely implies the only players he’s directly comparable with that stat are those who have regularly played in the Premier League for five and a half years. I suggest a per game record is more relevant.

old man of hoy · **#530964**

kiwipete wrote:

Have this while you're dribbling over your Jaffa cake .....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIIoWFn ... rate61ster

That my friend is magnificent - thank you. What a band - Wales meets Louisiana!

Try this for my song of 2021 - you probably can't be young and enjoy this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j2EabKIwHY

dec · **#530965**

Bernard wrote:

dec wrote:

It isn't a per game stat. Basically, since he joined Arsenal at the start of the 16/17 season, no other player in the PL has received more red cards.

Which surely implies the only players he’s directly comparable with that stat are those who have regularly played in the Premier League for five and a half years. I suggest a per game record is more relevant.

It's just a fairly basic stat and feel free to do a card per game analysis. The guy has 10 reds and 98 yellows in his career. He gets carded a lot and I really don't think he is much of a victim.

Bernard · **#530966**

dec wrote:

Bernard wrote:

Which surely implies the only players he’s directly comparable with that stat are those who have regularly played in the Premier League for five and a half years. I suggest a per game record is more relevant.

It's just a fairly basic stat and feel free to do a card per game analysis. The guy has 10 reds and 98 yellows in his career. He gets carded a lot and I really don't think he is much of a victim.

For basic you can arguably say meaningless. I already did a sending off per game stat for him since he’s been at Arsenal. It was 1 red card every 43 games, which equates to one every full season plus five games of the next season.

The point you seem to have the most problem is was Rich’s that referees don’t judge every incident equally and can be influenced by who the player is. Without me making any direct reference to Xhaka, as a general point that seems entirely logical. Harry Kane anyone?

dec · **#530967**

Bernard wrote:

dec wrote:

It's just a fairly basic stat and feel free to do a card per game analysis. The guy has 10 reds and 98 yellows in his career. He gets carded a lot and I really don't think he is much of a victim.

For basic you can arguably say meaningless. I already did a sending off per game stat for him since he’s been at Arsenal. It was 1 red card every 43 games, which equates to one every full season plus five games of the next season.

The point you seem to have the most problem is was Rich’s that referees don’t judge every incident equally and can be influenced by who the player is. Without me making any direct reference to Xhaka, as a general point that seems entirely logical. Harry Kane anyone?

The origin of this was Xhaka himself claiming he is treated differently by referees. The refs in Germany must have had the same bias so. Also, I never claimed that referees judge every incident equally. In fact, I actually stated that Xhaka probably doesn't get the benefit of the doubt very often. But that is likely due to the fact that he commits a lot of yellow card offences.

Bernard · **#530968**

dec wrote:

It's just a fairly basic stat and feel free to do a card per game analysis. The guy has 10 reds and 98 yellows in his career. He gets carded a lot and I really don't think he is much of a victim.

The origin of this was Xhaka himself claiming he is treated differently by referees. The refs in Germany must have had the same bias so. Also, I never claimed that referees judge every incident equally. In fact, I actually stated that Xhaka probably doesn't get the benefit of the doubt very often. But that is likely due to the fact that he commits a lot of yellow card offences.

If he has ten red cards over his entire career, he was played 530 matches for Basel, Borussia Monchengladbach, Arsenal and Switzerland’s national team. That equates to a sending off every 53 appearances, 10 more than his record at Arsenal alone.

So maybe Bundesliga, Swiss and international refs don’t have the same bias? Sorry, but I can’t help wondering if some are trying to make a bit more of his disciplinary record than might arguably be justified.

TOP GUN · **#530969**

10 red cards and 98 yellows is a lot ! :laughing7:

To put it in perspective Mark Noble holds the premier league record for most reds at 5 sendings off and he’s 34 and played his whole life in England. Granit should still catch him up if he stays longer no worries. Basically almost the most I’ll disciplined player off all time spanning several eras.

Bernard · **#530970**

TOP GUN wrote:

To put it in perspective Mark Noble holds the premier league record for most reds at 5 sendings off and he’s 34 and played his whole life in England.

Didn’t Duncan Ferguson, Patrick Vieira and Richard Dunne all get eight? I thought even Lee Cattermole, Vinnie Jones, Roy Keane and Alan Smith got seven?

TOP GUN · **#530971**

Bernard wrote:

TOP GUN wrote:

To put it in perspective Mark Noble holds the premier league record for most reds at 5 sendings off and he’s 34 and played his whole life in England.

Didn’t Duncan Ferguson, Patrick Vieira and Richard Dunne all get eight? I thought even Lee Cattermole, Vinnie Jones, Roy Keane and Alan Smith got seven?

Sorry should have said from current players

Rich · **#530972**

I’ve read Xhaka has 4 premier league reds for us. From my memory they are all straight reds, never two yellows.
Swansea at home for a cynical trip. This is the best example of him being treated worse than others.
He then had a red for a two footed tackle v Burnley and hands round the throat v Burnley and then the two footer v City this season.
I suppose the question would be has Xhaka ever really gotten away with a clear two footed tackle and not been sent off? Because there are players every season who get away with two footed tackles. You could argue Rudiger got away with one tonight that he only got booked for.

Christian · **#530973**

The Xhaka red card discussion is an interesting one. So it appears he has gotten four during his Arsenal career, and I found clips of three of them online.

This season against Manchester City:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBg7qgh ... allInDepth
Not a straight leg, and slight contact. I do not think this kind of tackles in general result in red cards in the Premier League.

Then against Burnley, at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t15htJA ... el=HDSport
Let´s just say that I doubt this would be a red card if the other team made a foul like this, especially at their home ground.

And then against Swansea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olDew6c ... =QueDuFoot
I cannot recall seing a red card being given for this in any competition.

TOP GUN · **#530974**

Christian wrote:

The Xhaka red card discussion is an interesting one. So it appears he has gotten four during his Arsenal career, and I found clips of three of them online.

This season against Manchester City:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBg7qgh ... allInDepth
Not a straight leg, and slight contact. I do not think this kind of tackles in general result in red cards in the Premier League.

Then against Burnley, at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t15htJA ... el=HDSport
Let´s just say that I doubt this would be a red card if the other team made a foul like this, especially at their home ground.

And then against Swansea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olDew6c ... =QueDuFoot
I cannot recall seing a red card being given for this in any competition.

The problem is he consistently makes two footed tackles off the ground. The refs nearly always consider these straight reds in the premier league for recklessly endangering another player. He does it all the time even when he’s not being sent off

https://youtu.be/NTKdNIk4TJ0

TOP GUN · **#530975**

Made me laugh

https://youtu.be/9lY-HXIFrug

long time gooner · **#530976**

Nice one Danny Welbeck. Just need us to win on Saturday now.

Rich · **#530977**

TOP GUN wrote:

The problem is he consistently makes two footed tackles off the ground. The refs nearly always consider these straight reds in the premier league for recklessly endangering another player. He does it all the time even when he’s not being sent off

https://youtu.be/NTKdNIk4TJ0

The thing is I don’t think prem refs do give this as a red ‘nearly always’ I’d say it’s maybe 50/50. Rudiger went two fitted tonight but kind of won the ball.
I’m not sure the Xhaka one v Burnley or the one you show v Son is ‘two-footed’ in the sense of what I consider two footed. For me a dangerous two footed tackle is both feet leaving the ground and close together directed at another player irrespective of whether you win the ball. Some of Xhaka’s owns he has both feet off the ground but it’s with split legs in a scissor action. That doesn’t mean they can’t be reds but I think other players/teams regularly get the benefit of the doubt with these sorts of tackles where Xhaka/we don’t.
And I’d say exactly the same for some of the last man fouls that Luiz was sent off for 3 times for us

AmericanGooner · **#530978**

Soton comes through...again. The Titanic curse. I should have put some money down on that after my post.

AmericanGooner · **#530979**

Yeah, pretty much. Not much to add.

TOP GUN · **#530980**

Interesting comments from mertesacker that we had lost our way. I totally agree with him

https://arseblog.news/2021/12/mertesack ... t-our-way/

Rich · **#530981**

TOP GUN wrote:

Interesting comments from mertesacker that we had lost our way. I totally agree with him

https://arseblog.news/2021/12/mertesack ... t-our-way/

Really happy with what I read and hear about Mertesecker. He’s a clear thinker and has a determination about him, I also think he has a calm manner than demands respect.

Decaf · **#530982**

kiwipete wrote:

This looks good ..... for all you newbies this has the makings of an Ali v Frasier encounter ..... ten years [ ? ] back who could forget the Bernard v Daz Supply v Demand slugfest .... who knows who won ....... anybodies guess so many hay makers were thrown .

Prior to that ...... "Oh my God how our hearts raced" as Niall and Bernard traded blows over Wiltord v Ljungberg ...again a stalemate . Both would claim otherwise

Full of confidence Bernard decided to move up a class ......... Bernard v Kiwipete [ myself ]

Subject ...... "Was Terry Mancini a major factor in Arsenal staying up 73 74 "[ or was it 74 75 ]

Unfortunately for Bernard I was at my sharpest ..... 2 am NZ time ..... having slurped half a bottle of rum

I reeled off stats from the Arsenal Yearbook , quotes from Bertie Mee / Don Howe ...in essence gave him a host of short jabs , body shots , uppercuts .... NO haymakers , gave him zero chance of using his normal tactics , muddying the water , moving the goal posts

:laughing7: if memory serves me right I think I gave Granty Boy in Australia a drunken call to confirm I was on the right track .

It was no contest .... remember Old Man watching from the sidelines remarked using a tennis analogy .... it was most one sided match since John Newcombe wiped out Wilhem Bungert 6-3 6-1 6-1 in the 67 Wimbledon Final .

We can all agree that rum was involved, but I wonder if Bernard's recollection of this episode matches yours in other details? :laughing7:

Bernard · **#530983**

Decaf wrote:

We can all agree that rum was involved, but I wonder if Bernard's recollection of this episode matches yours in other details? :laughing7:

Terry Mancini did more to put us in danger of going down rather than keep us up. Alan Ball was the biggest contributor to our survival. If I put Gus Caesar at right back, the central defence in my worst ever Arsenal team from players I’ve seen is Mancini and Blockley. They made the likes of Stepanovs and Squillachi look world class.

TOP GUN · **#530984**

Ok so this is how it starts ..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59829580

… then it ends with him deliberately tanking the side in season 2 because he doesn’t get what he wants ..

Darren · **#530985**

TOP GUN wrote:

Ok so this is how it starts ..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59829580

… then it ends with him deliberately tanking the side in season 2 because he doesn’t get what he wants ..

And it'll be fun to watch.

We already know and understand what our strategy going forward is. It's refreshing to know that too.

Bernard · **#530986**

Lots of stories today about Liverpool wanting Saka and him being open to moving there to enhance his chance of winning trophies. His current contract expires in 2024 and I think it’s crucial the club gets him to extend it as soon as possible. Otherwise the unsettling transfer gossip will continue.

I think it’ll be a major blow to Arsenal’s transfer policy and medium term prospects if Saka does go to Liverpool anytime soon. If fans were asked to select our most important player, I imagine Saka would get more votes than anyone else.

TOP GUN · **#530987**

Bernard wrote:

Lots of stories today about Liverpool wanting Saka and him being open to moving there to enhance his chance of winning trophies. His current contract expires in 2024 and I think it’s crucial the club gets him to extend it as soon as possible. Otherwise the unsettling transfer gossip will continue.

I think it’ll be a major blow to Arsenal’s transfer policy and medium term prospects if Saka does go to Liverpool anytime soon. If fans were asked to select our most important player, I imagine Saka would get more votes than anyone else.

He plays in the same position as salah and they are fighting to renew his contract and it’s going to cost them serious money.

The rumour stems from something someone said on a podcast. I’m not sure it makes much sense

azinoz · **#530988**

TOP GUN wrote:

Ok so this is how it starts ..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59829580

… then it ends with him deliberately tanking the side in season 2 because he doesn’t get what he wants ..

...curiously Sir Harry doesn’t get a mention!

Zed · **#530989**

Norwich's match at Leicester is called off on Jan 1 due to Covid and injuries.

kiwipete · **#530990**

old man of hoy wrote:

kiwipete wrote:

Have this while you're dribbling over your Jaffa cake .....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIIoWFn ... rate61ster

That my friend is magnificent - thank you. What a band - Wales meets Louisiana!

Try this for my song of 2021 - you probably can't be young and enjoy this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j2EabKIwHY

Not bad ....... you've always been one who is big on messages , the composition content triumphs all whereas I take a more numb nuts approach driving guitars and drums approach .

Was musing over your cricket anguish while doing this morning's breakfast dishes .

Cricket would have to be the ultimate sporting pain inflictor for any fan ; I mean most sports .... football , rugby , tennis the agony lasts a couple of hours at most .

Cricket you start with high hopes but can get several days of pure misery .

Cock a hoop in your face brash Aussies are the last bunch on the planet you want "on the other side of the equation" as well :laughing7:

What you need is a modern day Ian Botham .... remember watching him in 1983 [ ? can't be arsed to look it up ] as he hauled England back from the precipice single handed with bat and ball .

This has a bit of both .... message and beat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1WduR ... nyCashVEVO

old man of hoy · **#530991**

kiwipete wrote:

This has a bit of both .... message and beat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1WduR ... nyCashVEVO

Top stuff - as is this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSU9vIzFCzk

Bernard · **#530992**

Wonder if this will make Top Gun less supportive of Arteta?

Granit Xhaka on Mikel Arteta:

"He is the guy why I am still in this football club," Xhaka said of Arteta.

"Everyone knows what happened two years ago with the fans and without him I don't think I would be here anymore."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.allfootb ... ub/2740334

DHD · **#530993**

kiwipete wrote:

old man of hoy wrote:

That my friend is magnificent - thank you. What a band - Wales meets Louisiana!

Try this for my song of 2021 - you probably can't be young and enjoy this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j2EabKIwHY

Not bad ....... you've always been one who is big on messages , the composition content triumphs all whereas I take a more numb nuts approach driving guitars and drums approach .

Was musing over your cricket anguish while doing this morning's breakfast dishes .

Cricket would have to be the ultimate sporting pain inflictor for any fan ; I mean most sports .... football , rugby , tennis the agony lasts a couple of hours at most .

Cricket you start with high hopes but can get several days of pure misery .

Cock a hoop in your face brash Aussies are the last bunch on the planet you want "on the other side of the equation" as well :laughing7:

What you need is a modern day Ian Botham .... remember watching him in 1983 [ ? can't be arsed to look it up ] as he hauled England back from the precipice single handed with bat and ball .

This has a bit of both .... message and beat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1WduR ... nyCashVEVO

Self aggrandising arse-lickery raised to a(n almost) fine art.

Why thank yew Pete.

DHD · **#530994**

old man of hoy wrote:

kiwipete wrote:

This has a bit of both .... message and beat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1WduR ... nyCashVEVO

Top stuff - as is this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSU9vIzFCzk

Rare to see a group where mum is the drummer. Tyrannoedipus Rex?

Sorry. Bit pissed.

Mwah

kiwipete · **#530995**

DHD wrote:

kiwipete wrote:

Not bad ....... you've always been one who is big on messages , the composition content triumphs all whereas I take a more numb nuts approach driving guitars and drums approach .

Was musing over your cricket anguish while doing this morning's breakfast dishes .

Cricket would have to be the ultimate sporting pain in ; I mean most sports .... football , rugby , tennis the agony lasts a couple of hours at most .

Cricket you start with high hopes but can get several days of pure misery .

Cock a hoop in your face brash Aussies are the last bunch on the planet you want "on the other side of the equation" as well :laughing7:

What you need is a modern day Ian Botham .... remember watching him in 1983 [ ? can't be arsed to look it up ] as he hauled England back from the precipice single handed with bat and ball .

This has a bit of both .... message and beat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1WduR ... nyCashVEVO

Self aggrandising arse-lickery raised to a(n almost) fine art.

Why thank yew Pete.

what are you on about ....?

old man of hoy · **#530996**

DHD wrote:

old man of hoy wrote:

Top stuff - as is this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSU9vIzFCzk

Rare to see a group where mum is the drummer. Tyrannoedipus Rex?

Sorry. Bit pissed.

Mwah

As Michael said "Don't stop 'til you've had enough."

Rich · **#530997**

Games are being called off seemingly based on a combination of covid AND injuries. Rules are something like 13 fit players plus 1 gk, and any young players need experience at this level.
All seems a bit arbitrary and open for abuse. If you had a number of covid cases could you just not exaggerate some injuries to get a game called off? The sort of injury a player might normally play through the pain barrier for. Also a lot of clubs have no problems delving in to their youth set ups for cup games so why can’t they use their very deep squads for prem games. I understand not every club has 30 first team players and the same for U23, but the way games are being called off is almost certainly being used often for a teams advantage rather than any serious concern over infection and player welfare.

Zed · **#530998**

Happy New Year to all Oz and Kiwi friends who post on the forum here.
:26encouragement:

warrior · **#530999**

Zed wrote:

Happy New Year to all Oz and Kiwi friends who post on the forum here.
:26encouragement:

TOP GUN · **#531000**

We’ve got a few bottles in (piper, veuve and all sorts) so It makes sense to wish you lot a happy new year now and wish everyone an amazing 2022 before I forget.

It’s a really odd time. This covid stuff has messed things up so much I really don’t know what the next year will bring. I’m praying for a return to normality but I fear our lives will be very different for some time now.

If I’ve hacked anybody off in 2021 I apologise (kind of) , I’m probably guilty of overstating stuff on occasion but please remember I’ve been going to Arsenal since I was very very little so if I see something nonsensical I’m probably guilty of hammering it too much. Expect more of this in 2022 :laughing7:

Anyway have a good un :58big-emoticons:

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