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Post #530921  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:39 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Watched a fair bit of the second half (very little of the first) but from what I did see, I thought Scotland deserved their point. Delighted for them, as at least they still have a chance of qualifying.

Scotland deserve a lot of credit for that performance and it wouldn't have flattered them if they'd nicked a winner. England will have to up their game significantly to have any chance of going deep into the tournament. I agree with Graham Souness when he said that you need to replace either Rice or Phillips in the England midfield with someone more creative.

The trouble with many creative players is a lack of consistency. Throughout the ninety minutes England always had Sterling and Mount on the pitch, and one of Foden or Grealish. They all looked hopelessly ordinary. I can understand arguments for replacing Phillips with Grealish and having both Foden and Grealish as well as Sterling and Mount for the entire ninety minutes, but there’s no guarantee anything much would have improved considering how all of them played for the time they were on the pitch.

Scotland aren’t the best team in the tournament (a master of the understatement comment) and England should have had sufficient creativity with the those who played.


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Post #530922  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:48 pm 
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Lots of happy Scots because they didn't lose, but in truth that was a constipated game of football. Where have all the flank players who take on their backs gone to? Where was the creative forward pass? Just a few moments of excitement, and for me the Tierney cross for a good volley well saved was the only classy moment in a turgid match. Kane looks knackered and without him firing England's prospects look limited.

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Post #530923  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:28 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Lots of happy Scots because they didn't lose, but in truth that was a constipated game of football. Where have all the flank players who take on their backs gone to? Where was the creative forward pass? Just a few moments of excitement, and for me the Tierney cross for a good volley well saved was the only classy moment in a turgid match. Kane looks knackered and without him firing England's prospects look limited.

I only watched about 20 minutes but it was in the second half when Kane was put thru but a long way out and he was run down with ease and while a foul was given against the Scots he really looked more like Lacca than a 100million pound player. I wonder if he is on the slide.

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Post #530924  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:51 pm 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Lots of happy Scots because they didn't lose, but in truth that was a constipated game of football. Where have all the flank players who take on their backs gone to? Where was the creative forward pass? Just a few moments of excitement, and for me the Tierney cross for a good volley well saved was the only classy moment in a turgid match. Kane looks knackered and without him firing England's prospects look limited.

I only watched about 20 minutes but it was in the second half when Kane was put thru but a long way out and he was run down with ease and while a foul was given against the Scots he really looked more like Lacca than a 100million pound player. I wonder if he is on the slide.

Wrighty was none too pleased that Phil Foden was taken off in favour of Greilsh. Greilish, who in turn had been out for a bit, really didn't do much at all anyway.

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Post #530925  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:06 pm 
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There was some discussion on here earlier about the roles of the 8 and 10.

For me that game highlighted the problem with these modern formations which is the striker is left isolated. If mount is playing in the 10 role he had to get closer to Kane otherwise essentially all you have is a marked striker. arsenal were guilty of this a lot in the first part of last season.

Kane looks out of sorts and will get pelters but really you have to get players closer to him and bouncing off him


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Post #530926  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:27 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
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I agree, it’s probably nonsense journalism and I wouldn’t want to lose Smith Rowe for Ødegaard either. But can’t you find ways to say that without slagging Ødegaard off? Ødegaard is an elite talent and potentially a truly elite player. I suspect that’s why Real Madrid, in my view the world’s biggest club, not only bought him but probably want to keep him. I bet he ends up achieving more in the game than Cazorla, sadly as I don’t see it being with Arsenal.

Sorry, can't help it. It wasn't over-the-top slagging. Just don't like the way he plays. I prefer him to be tougher, like Cesc. Agree, he could potentially be a magician in the middle of the park. But I've not seen enough to be convinced he is able to bring up his game to match the opposition when needed. Well, I've been wrong before (don't we all?), and if he stays with us, hope he proves me wrong.

Sorry but in my view it was grossly over the top slagging. You implied Ødegaard isn’t driven and pulls away from tackles. That’s a criticism of his attitude that I see as way over the top. Creative players can show inconsistency (look at the England players last night) and if you had restricted your criticisms to that issue rather than implying he has a poor non-driven and tackle avoiding attitude I would have accepted it. Albeit I would have commented that you were probably being unfair because of his age and newness to the country and Premier League.

Ødegaard as a talent is arguably on another level. He did enough to convince me of that, while he was here. As I say, I wouldn’t want to lose Smith Rowe to acquire him, which is the rumour that started this debate. But I think many fans are too willing to use over the top criticism by slagging players off. I think you could have found a more reasonable way of saying we shouldn’t lose Smith Rowe to get him. That’s my point here. You went over the top. Your post was made even worse by saying Ødegaard is “Not anywhere close to Özil,” who would be very near the top if I was listing the Arsenal players I’ve seen with the worst attitudes.

However, I do agree with Zed’s point. Ødegaard will probably be better off (career wise) going back to Real than joining Arsenal.


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Post #530927  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:23 am 
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Bernard wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
Sorry, can't help it. It wasn't over-the-top slagging. Just don't like the way he plays. I prefer him to be tougher, like Cesc. Agree, he could potentially be a magician in the middle of the park. But I've not seen enough to be convinced he is able to bring up his game to match the opposition when needed. Well, I've been wrong before (don't we all?), and if he stays with us, hope he proves me wrong.

Sorry but in my view it was grossly over the top slagging. You implied Ødegaard isn’t driven and pulls away from tackles. That’s a criticism of his attitude that I see as way over the top. Creative players can show inconsistency (look at the England players last night) and if you had restricted your criticisms to that issue rather than implying he has a poor non-driven and tackle avoiding attitude I would have accepted it. Albeit I would have commented that you were probably being unfair because of his age and newness to the country and Premier League.

Ødegaard as a talent is arguably on another level. He did enough to convince me of that, while he was here. As I say, I wouldn’t want to lose Smith Rowe to acquire him, which is the rumour that started this debate. But I think many fans are too willing to use over the top criticism by slagging players off. I think you could have found a more reasonable way of saying we shouldn’t lose Smith Rowe to get him. That’s my point here. You went over the top. Your post was made even worse by saying Ødegaard is “Not anywhere close to Özil,” who would be very near the top if I was listing the Arsenal players I’ve seen with the worst attitudes.

However, I do agree with Zed’s point. Ødegaard will probably be better off (career wise) going back to Real than joining Arsenal.


Goodness Bernard ... you make yourself out to be the key moderator of my opinions. I didn't know I had a "wife" in this forum to tell me what I should and should not think.

So, you feel I'm over the top, ok. I said I wasn't wanting to be. Can't accept my opinion, no big deal to me. I didn't come here to expect all my opinions to be accepted. Still not happy with my response? Sue me, 'll let my lawyer know to expect your call.

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Post #530928  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:41 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
Goodness Bernard ... you make yourself out to be the key moderator of my opinions. I didn't know I had a "wife" in this forum to tell me what I should and should not think.

So, you feel I'm over the top, ok. I said I wasn't, so sue me. I'll let my lawyer know to expect your call.

I’m not telling you what you should or shouldn’t think. But when you post here, I think it’s perfectly reasonable for others to give their opinions on your views. That’s all I was doing.


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Post #530929  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:46 am 
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Bernard wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
Goodness Bernard ... you make yourself out to be the key moderator of my opinions. I didn't know I had a "wife" in this forum to tell me what I should and should not think.

So, you feel I'm over the top, ok. I said I wasn't, so sue me. I'll let my lawyer know to expect your call.

I’m not telling you what you should or shouldn’t think. But when you post here, I think it’s perfectly reasonable for others to give their opinions on your views. That’s all I was doing.



Yup, and I've always accepted differing thoughts to mine. But your response was over-the-top, pun intended :42laughter:

Ok, let's be friends :12hello-bye:

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Post #530930  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:47 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
Bernard wrote:
I’m not telling you what you should or shouldn’t think. But when you post here, I think it’s perfectly reasonable for others to give their opinions on your views. That’s all I was doing.

Yup, and I've always accepted differing thoughts to mine. But your response was over-the-top, pun intended :42laughter:

Ok, let's be friends :12hello-bye:

Couldn’t agree more. You’re just as entitled to think my response to you was over the top as I thought your stuff about Ødegaard was. I think the main strength of the forum is others giving their views on the opinions expressed.


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Post #530931  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 am 
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Arteta has said he eventually wants to move towards a 4-3-3 formation but doesn’t have the players to do it.
The two best teams in the prem with a 4-3-3 are City and Liverpool. Liverpool’s is more rigid in terms of the make up of the 3 in midfield. They are generally quite similar players, all technically good, good quick passers and press well with high energy. Essentially the job of these 3 is to win the ball and get it wide to the full backs or forward to the front 3 quickly. They aren’t really responsible for huge amounts of creativity and don’t get many goals or assists.
City’s midfield 3 make up is different, the 3 have more staggered roles as a pure defensive mid, a box to box and a creator, or sometimes 2 creators - but never really with a classic No.10.
So that brings me back to Arteta’s 4-3-3, I don’t think you play a classic 10 in this formation and of all the midfielders we’ve been linked to Ødegaard feels like the most natural 10. Maddison a close 2nd. I’d imagine Arteta will want a midfield 3 more like City than Liverpool so I kind of feel plays in the de Bruyne mould (hard to be as good but in style) might be better suited. I see these players as starting deeper than a classic 10 but being able to carry the ball forward and create chances. Smith Rowe I could see doing this role, also Aouar feels like this sort of player.


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Post #530932  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:03 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Lots of happy Scots because they didn't lose, but in truth that was a constipated game of football. Where have all the flank players who take on their backs gone to? Where was the creative forward pass? Just a few moments of excitement, and for me the Tierney cross for a good volley well saved was the only classy moment in a turgid match. Kane looks knackered and without him firing England's prospects look limited.

I only watched about 20 minutes but it was in the second half when Kane was put thru but a long way out and he was run down with ease and while a foul was given against the Scots he really looked more like Lacca than a 100million pound player. I wonder if he is on the slide.
Yes he was easily outrun - quite painful to watch such a fine player so reduced. He plays too many games for Spurs to ever be fresh enough for the end of season international tournaments. Can't blame Spurs for getting their moneysworth but as you suggest they may have had the best of him.

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Post #530933  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:22 am 
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Zed wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
I only watched about 20 minutes but it was in the second half when Kane was put thru but a long way out and he was run down with ease and while a foul was given against the Scots he really looked more like Lacca than a 100million pound player. I wonder if he is on the slide.

Wrighty was none too pleased that Phil Foden was taken off in favour of Greilsh. Greilish, who in turn had been out for a bit, really didn't do much at all anyway.
Have to agree with Wrighty - Foden was the main attacking bright spark for England, so it was strange to see him subbed. When we needed forward momentum late in the game Grealish chose to showboat around the centre circle, which was frustrating. Just how good he is remains to be seen. I enjoyed Mings' showing and Shaw was decent enough.

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Post #530934  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:29 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
There was some discussion on here earlier about the roles of the 8 and 10.

For me that game highlighted the problem with these modern formations which is the striker is left isolated. If mount is playing in the 10 role he had to get closer to Kane otherwise essentially all you have is a marked striker. arsenal were guilty of this a lot in the first part of last season.

Kane looks out of sorts and will get pelters but really you have to get players closer to him and bouncing off him
Yes it is a good point - Kane was often isolated. If England are to continue that way then they may as well play the quicker young guys up front who at least have an even chance of outpacing a defender. Oh for Vardy!

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Post #530935  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:32 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
Goodness Bernard ... you make yourself out to be the key moderator of my opinions. I didn't know I had a "wife" in this forum to tell me what I should and should not think...
:42laughter: and a bag of Eboues to go with it.

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Post #530936  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:40 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
I didn't know I had a "wife" in this forum to tell me what I should and should not think.


:15laughter: :15laughter:

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Post #530937  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:42 am 
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Rich wrote:
I see these players as starting deeper than a classic 10 but being able to carry the ball forward and create chances. Smith Rowe I could see doing this role, also Aouar feels like this sort of player.

Aouar is an interesting case. To me he looks like a really talented player, and we were allegedly close to signing him last summer but couldn't quite get the deal done. If rumours are true he's available for less than 30m this summer we should seriously consider it.


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Post #530938  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:21 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
Goodness Bernard ... you make yourself out to be the key moderator of my opinions. I didn't know I had a "wife" in this forum to tell me what I should and should not think...
:42laughter: and a bag of Eboues to go with it.

As I explained, what’s wrong with someone else giving their thoughts on the opinions of others here? Isn’t it what makes the forum?


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Post #530939  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:05 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
I only watched about 20 minutes but it was in the second half when Kane was put thru but a long way out and he was run down with ease and while a foul was given against the Scots he really looked more like Lacca than a 100million pound player. I wonder if he is on the slide.
Yes he was easily outrun - quite painful to watch such a fine player so reduced. He plays too many games for Spurs to ever be fresh enough for the end of season international tournaments. Can't blame Spurs for getting their moneysworth but as you suggest they may have had the best of him.

Also, Kane's strengths are his pure finishing and his link up play. Both of those stem from his composure, speed of thought, and technical ability. He's incredibly composed when picking a pass or a finish. England don't play to that whereas Spurs do.

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Post #530940  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:13 pm 
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Zed wrote:
DHD wrote:

Friday 13th

What could possibly go wrong?

Maybe not much.

The may be Bananaskin with different ideas.

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Post #530941  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:19 pm 
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Weird to see a French team without an Arsenal player even on the bench.

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Post #530942  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:47 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
Weird to see a French team without an Arsenal player even on the bench.

Perhaps that’s why they are losing. :42laughter:

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Post #530943  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:48 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
I didn't know I had a "wife" in this forum to tell me what I should and should not think.


:15laughter: :15laughter:

Nagging wife jokes! The 1970s will never die on the Steve Gleiber Forum!

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Post #530944  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:14 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
Yup, and I've always accepted differing thoughts to mine. But your response was over-the-top, pun intended :42laughter:

Ok, let's be friends :12hello-bye:

Couldn’t agree more. You’re just as entitled to think my response to you was over the top as I thought your stuff about Ødegaard was. I think the main strength of the forum is others giving their views on the opinions expressed.


Cheers Bernard :58big-emoticons:

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Post #530945  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:22 pm 
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I like the pace of the Hungarians. Positive, purposeful football.

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Post #530946  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:50 pm 
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gooner7 wrote:
I like the pace of the Hungarians. Positive, purposeful football.

They've put in a heroic performance, lifted by their magnificent, passionate support. Into stoppage time now.


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Post #530947  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:56 pm 
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And they hold out for a draw against the world champions. :53big-emoticons:


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Post #530948  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:29 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
And they hold out for a draw against the world champions. :53big-emoticons:

Just like England holding out for a draw against Scotland eh? :laughing7:

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Post #530949  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:17 pm 
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Great start to Germany - Portugal. Have to say it's been a brilliant tournament so far, almost every game has been entertaining to watch.


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Post #530950  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:33 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
And they hold out for a draw against the world champions. :53big-emoticons:

Just like England holding out for a draw against Scotland eh? :laughing7:

Similar LTG :laughing7:


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Post #530951  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:41 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
Great start to Germany - Portugal. Have to say it's been a brilliant tournament so far, almost every game has been entertaining to watch.

Portugal are on fire. Now scored three. Only problem is that the last two were in their own net.

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Post #530952  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:45 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
Great start to Germany - Portugal. Have to say it's been a brilliant tournament so far, almost every game has been entertaining to watch.

Portugal are on fire. Now scored three. Only problem is that the last two were in their own net.

They seem to have given the first Germany goal to Havertz, not sure how as he never touched the ball


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Post #530953  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:52 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
Great start to Germany - Portugal. Have to say it's been a brilliant tournament so far, almost every game has been entertaining to watch.

Portugal are on fire. Now scored three. Only problem is that the last two were in their own net.

When you said they are 'on fire' I thought you meant ...

But I see you meant ...
:1laughter:

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Post #530954  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:55 pm 
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Grealish Cpuld easily move to a real big team this summer, City are meant to be interested. I think he’s a fantastic player but one of the things he’d have to prove if he moved to City is can his box of tricks work against an 11 man defence.

When I’ve seen Grealish at his best it’s on a counter using dribbling and pace and skill, and in 1 v 1 situations when defenders are back peddling.

Watching Mbappe today showed his class in this regard. I know France didn’t win but there were a couple of moments when he went from 0 to full speed in the blink of an eye over 5 yards and had his defender beaten inside the box


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Post #530955  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:09 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
Portugal are on fire. Now scored three. Only problem is that the last two were in their own net.

They seem to have given the first Germany goal to Havertz, not sure how as he never touched the ball

Sky Sports and also the official site still have it as an own goal

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uefa+ ... ;dt;fp;1;;

And as I type that Germany get another similar goal, albeit Havertz this time.

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Post #530956  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:22 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
They seem to have given the first Germany goal to Havertz, not sure how as he never touched the ball

Sky Sports and also the official site still have it as an own goal

that's weird, the graphic on TV still had it as a Havertz goal at the end of the half. Very impressive game from Germany in any case, despite conceding the first goal. Portugal will need a result against France now.


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Post #530957  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:46 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
Zed wrote:
Maybe not much.

The may be Bananaskin with different ideas.


Yep those bananaskins.

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Post #530958  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:48 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Zed wrote:
Wrighty was none too pleased that Phil Foden was taken off in favour of Greilsh. Greilish, who in turn had been out for a bit, really didn't do much at all anyway.
Have to agree with Wrighty - Foden was the main attacking bright spark for England, so it was strange to see him subbed. When we needed forward momentum late in the game Grealish chose to showboat around the centre circle, which was frustrating. Just how good he is remains to be seen. I enjoyed Mings' showing and Shaw was decent enough.

It will be interesting to see if Southgate changes style for the Czech match. I didn't find his after match presser very encouraging.

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Post #530959  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:57 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
Rich wrote:
I see these players as starting deeper than a classic 10 but being able to carry the ball forward and create chances. Smith Rowe I could see doing this role, also Aouar feels like this sort of player.

Aouar is an interesting case. To me he looks like a really talented player, and we were allegedly close to signing him last summer but couldn't quite get the deal done. If rumours are true he's available for less than 30m this summer we should seriously consider it.

As it should be a lesser fee. Lyon finished 4th in Ligue 1. Hope a deal can be done.

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Post #530960  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:12 pm 
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Two former Arsenal midfielders have been pundits on BBC and/or ITV this competition. Vieira and Fabregas. Is it me or are they both looking quite chubby now? I suppose with Vieira it’s understandable as he would have given up playing many years ago. But Fabregas is still playing at Monaco, and unless I’m mistaken he looks much heavier now.


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