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Post #529081  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:17 am 
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socrates wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
End of the day we had 4 good chances.

The 2 Aubameyang chances are an inch to the right and we would be praising Arteta.

The line between disaster and success is small. In truth we were a little unlucky.


Come on TG, we didn't turn up for the 1st half. Where was the urgency, the energy, the desire to get the job done?.

I think we only had one shot on target in the whole game.

Arteta picked a one man central midfield which put massive pressure on Partey, who looked like his legs had gone by halftime.

Luck should not have come into it last night......even playing really poorly we should have still beaten a pretty average Villareal side


We hit the post twice.

May not have been the greatest performance but we no longer have Ramsey, cazorla and Mesut Özil in the same side. We won’t be dazzling many opposition teams anytime soon.


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Post #529082  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:22 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
socrates wrote:

Come on TG, we didn't turn up for the 1st half. Where was the urgency, the energy, the desire to get the job done?.

I think we only had one shot on target in the whole game.

Arteta picked a one man central midfield which put massive pressure on Partey, who looked like his legs had gone by halftime.

Luck should not have come into it last night......even playing really poorly we should have still beaten a pretty average Villareal side


We hit the post twice.

May not have been the greatest performance but we no longer have Ramsey, cazorla and Mesut Özil in the same side. We won’t be dazzling many opposition teams anytime soon.


Come on, this was an average Villareal side, not peak Barcelona. We played as badly as I recall many teams playing in a semi-final. We created next to nothing. Aubameyang's chances were both difficult ones and he probably did as well as be could do in those situations. Apart from that it was a dismal showing.


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Post #529083  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:28 am 
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A case for showing that the players are clearly not good enough and haven't been good enough over the past 5 years is to look at what all our departed players in that time have achieved. If it was Arsenal dragging them below their natural level and they truly were better players than we were seeing then there should be some evidence of this once they moved away from Arsenal?
How many players who have left recently, can you make a case for them being a success at their new club or bettering themselves?
Gnabry, Martinez, Mkhitaryan has done well at Roma, Szczesny is a better gk, Giroud has had some important moments at Chelsea and you'd have to say Monreal showed he had some left in the tank with the cup win in Spain this year.

But the rest.......Sokratis, Mustafi, Özil, Kolasinac, Guendouzi, Torreira, Iwobi, Ospina, Jenkinson, Ramsey, Welbeck, Perez, Campbell, Sanchez, Ox, Walcott, Gibbs, Gabriel, Sanogo, Coquelin (i get the irony on the last one). All have been worse since leaving us. Of course there are some good players in that list and if we'd taken the opportunity to surround them with better players instead of having the likes of Sanchez have to carry the team on his back then we might have had more success - but generally many of these just were never good enough.


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Post #529084  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:32 am 
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socrates wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

We hit the post twice.

May not have been the greatest performance but we no longer have Ramsey, cazorla and Mesut Özil in the same side. We won’t be dazzling many opposition teams anytime soon.


Come on, this was an average Villareal side, not peak Barcelona. We played as badly as I recall many teams playing in a semi-final. We created next to nothing. Aubameyang's chances were both difficult ones and he probably did as well as be could do in those situations. Apart from that it was a dismal showing.

I expect Man U to beat them by 2 or 3 goals quite comfortably in the final.
They've had a relatively trouble free route to the final, a bit like when they beat Ajax to win Europa a few years ago, no real team of pedigree to challenge them. The two times we've been close we've come up against Atletico Madrid and Chelsea - both of whom are infinitely better than every team in this season's Europa league (with Man U at their level).


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Post #529085  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:37 am 
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If we pick our most talented players, lets say that is Tierney, Saka, Partey, Aubameyang.
Do any of those get in City's first 11? No. Chelsea? no. Liverpool? no. Man U? Partey at his best gets in their central midfield and maybe Saka could play right wing for them. Spurs? Tierney, partey, Saka play but Kane beats Aubameyang


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Post #529086  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:38 am 
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So who thinks Arteta should start next season as Arsenal manager?

I was behind his appointment but unfortunately this season has been the worst for 30 years!
If we can get an experienced manager and back him then I think we have to. However, we all know the deeper problem is KSE are investors who dont prioritise sporting success.


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Post #529087  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:44 am 
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...and KSE have proved themselves to be pretty bad at running a football club. Just look at all the millions we've lost on players through mismanagement (Sanchez/Özil/Ramsey/Welbeck/Mikihytarian/Mustafi/Gnabry/etc etc)


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Post #529088  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:46 am 
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I've said this before but if Arsenal really wanted to get our house in order and install a proper philosophy through the club, particularly on the actual recruitment, players and football side of things then we need to go and get Ralf Rangnick and just give him whatever role or job title he wants.


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Post #529089  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:48 am 
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Bored wrote:
So who thinks Arteta should start next season as Arsenal manager?

I was behind his appointment but unfortunately this season has been the worst for 30 years!
If we can get an experienced manager and back him then I think we have to. However, we all know the deeper problem is KSE are investors who dont prioritise sporting success.

I only think you can answer that question if you know what the alternative is?


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Post #529090  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:50 am 
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Rich wrote:
I've said this before but if Arsenal really wanted to get our house in order and install a proper philosophy through the club, particularly on the actual recruitment, players and football side of things then we need to go and get Ralf Rangnick and just give him whatever role or job title he wants.


That's not a bad call.

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Post #529091  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:50 am 
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Bored wrote:
So who thinks Arteta should start next season as Arsenal manager?

I was behind his appointment but unfortunately this season has been the worst for 30 years!
If we can get an experienced manager and back him then I think we have to. However, we all know the deeper problem is KSE are investors who dont prioritise sporting success.


His monotonous drone is emblematic of what we are really.

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Post #529092  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 am 
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With the amounts of Ins/Outs we need to do you're looking at best at another transitional season if we manage to do a lot of business, or if we cant do the business we need we're looking at another stagnating season because we're stuck with the same squad.


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Post #529093  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:04 am 
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socrates wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

We hit the post twice.

May not have been the greatest performance but we no longer have Ramsey, cazorla and Mesut Özil in the same side. We won’t be dazzling many opposition teams anytime soon.


Come on, this was an average Villareal side, not peak Barcelona. .


We are an average arsenal side. Very average. There’s few standout players in our squad. Your comment here seems to suggest we are underachieving world beaters. We are not anymore, we have players in our first 11 on loan at Huddersfield and real sociedad recently.


Like I said we were a little unlucky but not hugely but we won’t dazzle againest anyone these days


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Post #529094  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:16 am 
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Rich wrote:
I've said this before but if Arsenal really wanted to get our house in order and install a proper philosophy through the club, particularly on the actual recruitment, players and football side of things then we need to go and get Ralf Rangnick and just give him whatever role or job title he wants.


If we are only giving coaches 16 month tenures before their dismissal and no money there isn’t enough time to install a philosophy.


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Post #529095  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:19 am 
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Rich wrote:
Bored wrote:
So who thinks Arteta should start next season as Arsenal manager?


I only think you can answer that question if you know what the alternative is?


How very reasonable and sensible. You dont fancy running an ailing premier league football club do you? Perhaps a better question would be: should the club be actively looking to replace Arteta now?


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Post #529096  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:52 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Rich wrote:
I've said this before but if Arsenal really wanted to get our house in order and install a proper philosophy through the club, particularly on the actual recruitment, players and football side of things then we need to go and get Ralf Rangnick and just give him whatever role or job title he wants.


If we are only giving coaches 16 month tenures before their dismissal and no money there isn’t enough time to install a philosophy.

Getting Rangnick doesn't have to mean firing Arteta. Rangnick is a big picture guy and vastly experienced. He has managed clubs but I think his best work has been in a kind of director of football role. The 'process' he installed in the red bull teams is a model that we should be following, that's not to say we should pin ourselves as a second tier club who simply prepares young players to move on to bigger clubs but that as a starting place for the next 5 or so years would give us some stability to then take the next step.
The problem at the moment with us for the past 5 years is there has not been a cohesive strategy for how to run this football club from the very top to the very bottom.


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Post #529097  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:57 am 
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:cat:
Rich wrote:
I expect Man U to beat them by 2 or 3 goals quite comfortably in the final.
They've had a relatively trouble free route to the final, a bit like when they beat Ajax to win Europa a few years ago, no real team of pedigree to challenge them. The two times we've been close we've come up against Atletico Madrid and Chelsea - both of whom are infinitely better than every team in this season's Europa league (with Man U at their level).

Your point appears valid for previous seasons. But this season can’t you say exactly the same about Arsenal’s opponents in the Europa League? Rapid Vienna, Dundalk, Molde, Benfica, Olympiacos, Slavia Prague and Villarreal are hardly world beaters these days. Sure, Benfica are the biggest club we’ve played but are they bigger or better than Manchester United’s semifinal opponents? Roma are in a higher standard domestic league, after all.

The difference is Manchester United comfortably won their semifinal against Roma while we lost ours against Villarreal.


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Post #529098  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:59 am 
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Bored wrote:
Rich wrote:
I only think you can answer that question if you know what the alternative is?


How very reasonable and sensible. You dont fancy running an ailing premier league football club do you? Perhaps a better question would be: should the club be actively looking to replace Arteta now?

I'd answer that in two ways.
1) Every club should always have their 'targets' for next manager, next player etc. Things can change, or need to change at the drop of a hat so really Arsenal should already know who they want next.
2) a more basic answer is yes, they should be considering replacing Arteta. I think he's had a tremendous amount stacked against him with the squad he inherited, covid, lack of transfer movement, compressed schedule - a really unprecedented set of circumstances, but it still feels like his coaching is just not suited to the team we have and he has over thought far too many games and even if you think the team and players are rubbish he should still have us as more of an attacking threat than we are. If Rodgers was available the club should snap him up in a heartbeat. If we're looking at someone like Potter from Brighton (who I do sort of rate) then it seems like a sideways move


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Post #529099  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:01 am 
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Bernard wrote:
:cat:
Rich wrote:
I expect Man U to beat them by 2 or 3 goals quite comfortably in the final.
They've had a relatively trouble free route to the final, a bit like when they beat Ajax to win Europa a few years ago, no real team of pedigree to challenge them. The two times we've been close we've come up against Atletico Madrid and Chelsea - both of whom are infinitely better than every team in this season's Europa league (with Man U at their level).

Your point appears valid for previous seasons. But this season can’t you say exactly the same about Arsenal’s opponents in the Europa League? Rapid Vienna, Dundalk, Molde, Benfica, Olympiacos, Slavia Prague and Villarreal are hardly world beaters these days. Sure, Benfica are the biggest club we’ve played but are they bigger or better than Manchester United’s semifinal opponents? Roma are in a higher standard domestic league, after all.

The difference is Manchester United comfortably won their semifinal against Roma while we lost ours against Villarreal.

Which is why I didn't include this season, or last season when we were knocked out by Olympicos. In the Europa league we should really always be one of the top 4 teams.
I expect Man U to win it this year, so my point was really about them rather than us, saying that in the two years they win it (assuming they do this year) they haven't had to beat the quality of teams that we had to when we came closest to winning it.


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Post #529100  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:09 am 
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We got out of jail the first leg.
Really should have been 3 or 4 nil down.
We lived to fight another day. Just one goal in it and at home.
I cannot believe we started the game as we did. That team is born out of Arteta's image.
Unfortunately it seems to be the norm.
I can only think of a handful of performances this season where we have been intense aggressive and flying out the traps from start to near finish.
It is truly unforgiveable that one Arteta couldnt motivate those players with a final place at stake and 2 those players couldnt motivate themselves.
It was shocking and pathetic to put in that sort of performance and being so excited when he was first appointed i do now think his time is up and he should be sacked. These cautious mundane performances are happening too often.
His ridiculous false 9 tactics(with Aubameyang and Martinelli on the bench)in homage to his friend Pep last week in the first leg were a *%^@*** joke.


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Post #529101  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:11 am 
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That was absolutely awful last night, knew the writing was on the wall when we couldn't muster any momentum at the start of the game and were content to let Villareal pass it about in the first half. We really are a mess at the minute, pinning our hopes on some young players with great potential but there's bugger all else in the team to get excited about.

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Post #529102  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:12 am 
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david.d wrote:
We got out of jail the first leg.
Really should have been 3 or 4 nil down.
We lived to fight another day. Just one goal in it and at home.
I cannot believe we started the game as we did. That team is born out of Arteta's image.
Unfortunately it seems to be the norm.
I can only think of a handful of performances this season where we have been intense aggressive and flying out the traps from start to near finish.
It is truly unforgiveable that one Arteta couldnt motivate those players with a final place at stake and 2 those players couldnt motivate themselves.
It was shocking and pathetic to put in that sort of performance and being so excited when he was first appointed i do now think his time is up and he should be sacked. These cautious mundane performances are happening too often.
His ridiculous false 9 tactics(with Aubameyang and Martinelli on the bench)in homage to his friend Pep last week in the first leg were a *%^@*** joke.

Moreno should have put us out of our misery earlier on in the game, did everything right until the shoddy finish.
They deserved it. And they were bang average.

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Post #529103  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:24 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
"I think over two legs and what happened today in the second half we deserved to win the game."

Arteta spewing nonsense

That looks like manager-speak for “I’d like to keep my job please”.

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Post #529104  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:27 am 
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Rich wrote:
I've said this before but if Arsenal really wanted to get our house in order and install a proper philosophy through the club, particularly on the actual recruitment, players and football side of things then we need to go and get Ralf Rangnick and just give him whatever role or job title he wants.
Has he won anything of note? Genuine question as I don't know much about him.

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Post #529105  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:28 am 
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Respect to Villarreal. They were the better team in both legs.

That's a club with no special funding from a town the size of King Lynn.


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Post #529106  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:30 am 
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long time gooner wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
"I think over two legs and what happened today in the second half we deserved to win the game."

Arteta spewing nonsense

That looks like manager-speak for “I’d like to keep my job please”.

Indeed LTG. Arteta can claim we were unlucky with the two efforts off the post. Fair enough. I thought his description of Smith-Rowe's deft chip was off the mark as an open goal. It was a decent effort I thought. Any other chances? Pépé's shot wide was a good effort but a half chance in my book. Any sensible reading of the tie has us well outplayed for an hour in Spain; and easily kept at arms length in the home tie. Moreno should have had it game over around the 65 minute mark. It was very very disappointing and while I can accept semi-finals are often tight, we really didn't show any attacking verve at all over the 180.

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Post #529107  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:35 am 
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We have the best GK we’ve had for a while and he’s playing consistently well. We have two of the best CDs we’ve had in a long while – Gab and Mari – shame they’re both left footed so don’t get picked together. We also have one of the best performing young CDs in Ligue 1. We have the best LB we’ve had in ages.

We have Partey who in his early days looked like the best MF we’ve had for a long time. Unfortunately, his performances have become increasingly dodgy. We have Saka and S-R who are two of the brightest prospects in English football; they consistently perform well, though not last night.

We have two of the most consistent strikers in European football – they’ve topped the scoring charts wherever they’ve been.

That’s a pretty decent roll call of top quality players who, with the possible exception of the strikers, are all young and safely under contract. Plenty to work with there and plenty to build on. I don’t mention the loans or Pépé Willian Xhaka and Luiz (big-money players who don’t always perform) or Martinelli who has yet to establish himself.

I have no wish for another change of leadership but surely Arteta should be getting more of a tune out of these players.


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Post #529108  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:41 am 
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The only thing consistent about Arsenal this season is the inconsistency.

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Post #529109  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:47 am 
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DHD wrote:
I have no wish for another change of leadership but surely Arteta should be getting more of a tune out of these players.

That's a very good summary. There is a really talented core of players at the club to build on; signings are needed, but I still maintain that this squad is comfortably better than the one Klopp inherited in 2015. Just look at this list of players: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%8 ... First_team

Only players in there who have contributed to the titles they've won are Gomez, Lovren, Milner, Henderson and Firmino. Hardly world class type talents, but everyone has been playing the best football of their careers under Klopp.


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Post #529110  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 9:54 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Partey - it will be interesting to see if he wants to stay. I think after initially impressing he has regressed but that may be because of Arteta's requiring him to be the whole midfield.

Must admit I’ve been a bit disappointed with Partey so far. I’m still putting it down to a slow start at a new club in a different league but I don’t think he’s been as good as I was expecting, so far anyway.

It’s interesting that Atletico Madrid haven’t appeared to miss him. This season they’re top of the table by two points with only four games left. So they have a good chance of winning the league, even though at this point they’re a long way from being certainties. Last season with Partey, Atletico finished third, twelve points behind second place Barcelona and seventeen points behind the winners Real Madrid.


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Post #529111  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:09 am 
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DHD wrote:
We have the best GK we’ve had for a while and he’s playing consistently well. We have two of the best CDs we’ve had in a long while – Gab and Mari – shame they’re both left footed so don’t get picked together. We also have one of the best performing young CDs in Ligue 1. We have the best LB we’ve had in ages.

We have Partey who in his early days looked like the best MF we’ve had for a long time. Unfortunately, his performances have become increasingly dodgy. We have Saka and S-R who are two of the brightest prospects in English football; they consistently perform well, though not last night.

We have two of the most consistent strikers in European football – they’ve topped the scoring charts wherever they’ve been.

That’s a pretty decent roll call of top quality players who, with the possible exception of the strikers, are all young and safely under contract. Plenty to work with there and plenty to build on. I don’t mention the loans or Pépé Willian Xhaka and Luiz (big-money players who don’t always perform) or Martinelli who has yet to establish himself.

I have no wish for another change of leadership but surely Arteta should be getting more of a tune out of these players.


I agree generally buts It’s a football team with no ball players in it though. You can list the decent players we do have but there’s a gaping hole in the middle of our side.

Where’s your cazorla, Özil, Fabregas, Bergkamp players who are slick can manipulate the ball and provide moments of inspiration. There just aren’t any.

Even Leicester and Villa have Maddison and grealish. We have nobody, it’s perfectly understandable to be frustrated with the manager however until that type of player comes in we will get nowhere mark my words and we need more than 1 of them


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Post #529112  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:11 am 
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DHD wrote:
I have no wish for another change of leadership but surely Arteta should be getting more of a tune out of these players.

I fully agree DHD. I think some make out our squad is worse than it really is.


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Post #529113  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:24 am 
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Rich wrote:
A case for showing that the players are clearly not good enough and haven't been good enough over the past 5 years is to look at what all our departed players in that time have achieved. If it was Arsenal dragging them below their natural level and they truly were better players than we were seeing then there should be some evidence of this once they moved away from Arsenal?

Isn’t it equally relevant to ask why Willian has become an immeasurably worse player at Arsenal than he was at Chelsea? Is it only down to him being a year older? I doubt it. He won’t have lost any technical ability either. I suspect it might have more to do with Arteta not using him as Chelsea used him.


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Post #529114  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:25 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Rich wrote:
I've said this before but if Arsenal really wanted to get our house in order and install a proper philosophy through the club, particularly on the actual recruitment, players and football side of things then we need to go and get Ralf Rangnick and just give him whatever role or job title he wants.
Has he won anything of note? Genuine question as I don't know much about him.

It is no so much about what he has won as a manager, but more his vision of football as a director of football that I'd be buying in to.
He was director of football at Leipzig and Salzburg recently. Took them from obscurity to champions league. I just like the approach to playing high tempo, high press attacking football alongside identifying the best young players and bringing them through as a cohesive team. You only have to look at the record of the players he bought to both Red Bull teams who have since moved on to achieve great things.


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Post #529115  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:27 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Rich wrote:
A case for showing that the players are clearly not good enough and haven't been good enough over the past 5 years is to look at what all our departed players in that time have achieved. If it was Arsenal dragging them below their natural level and they truly were better players than we were seeing then there should be some evidence of this once they moved away from Arsenal?

Isn’t it equally relevant to ask why Willian has become an immeasurably worse player at Arsenal than he was at Chelsea? Is it only down to him being a year older? I doubt it. He won’t have lost any technical ability either. I suspect it might have more to do with Arteta not using him as Chelsea used him.

Agreed, it isn't a completely one way thing. Players certainly seem to regress when they come to us, and have done under 3 different managers for a number of years now.


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Post #529116  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:38 am 
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Bernard wrote:
DHD wrote:
I have no wish for another change of leadership but surely Arteta should be getting more of a tune out of these players.

I fully agree DHD. I think some make out our squad is worse than it really is.


Both right. I don’t think the players enjoy playing for Arteta, and whilst they adhere to his instructions on how he wants them to play, there’s no heartfelt desire to do their best to make it work it seems to me. I feel like there’s a massive lack of belief in both manager and his system.

He has, in my opinion, and in basic football parlance, lost the dressing room.

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Post #529117  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:44 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Rich wrote:
I've said this before but if Arsenal really wanted to get our house in order and install a proper philosophy through the club, particularly on the actual recruitment, players and football side of things then we need to go and get Ralf Rangnick and just give him whatever role or job title he wants.


If we are only giving coaches 16 month tenures before their dismissal and no money there isn’t enough time to install a philosophy.



Like Tuchel

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Post #529118  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 11:35 am 
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Abu wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

If we are only giving coaches 16 month tenures before their dismissal and no money there isn’t enough time to install a philosophy.



Like Tuchel


Chelsea spent 200 million in summer signings to sign Havertz, Werner, Chilwell, Ziyech, Mendy.

A bit different to not being able to get a tune out of El Nenny.


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Post #529119  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 12:58 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Abu wrote:


Like Tuchel


Chelsea spent 200 million in summer signings to sign Havertz, Werner, Chilwell, Ziyech, Mendy.

A bit different to not being able to get a tune out of El Nenny.


Yeah and we spent $70m on Pépé, 45m on Partey, 50 million on Aubameyang, 50m on Lacazette. Not all in one off season but they're still there and still expensive.

Allegri would get much more out of the same players.


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Post #529120  Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 1:01 pm 
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We still need to do what we needed to do after Wenger left. The first step in that rebuild was being humble enough to accept that there wasn't a quick fix and that things may need to get worse initially but as long as the principles were clear, agreed then it would be better in the long term.
In Wenger's last season and in the next 2 seasons we went with quick fix options, experienced big budget signings, or free transfers on huge wages - hoping those players could lead a recovery back to the champions league. It has been totally flawed.

People compare us to Man U after Fergie left but it so vastly different because of the money available to man u to spend, they could keep throwing it at players and managers and of course eventually some of it will hit the right note.

If we are serious about getting back some respectability and challenging for top honours again then the inquest and actions need to be ruthless. Next year with no europe only requires us to have a 22 man squad maximum really. That's about 10 fewer than this season. The wage budget needs to be cut drastically, so every high earner needs to be carefully considered whether we want to build with them or we're better off selling them now if we can - that includes Aubameyang.

The only players I'm really keen to keep are Saka, Tierney, Partey, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe. Saliba needs to play next year and Balogun given chances. I wouldn't shed a tear over any of the others leaving.


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