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Post #536521  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:20 am 
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Rich wrote:
We struggle to create chances, we struggle to press home any advantage we do get and we struggle to get back in to things when we face adversity


And how long has it been like this? Arsenal are the epitome of the soft underbelly. Every team, manager, player and their dog know that if you give 100% effort, stack a solid defence and go for the 50/50 tackles then you have a good chance of getting a result. And with a performance like today it's no surprise that Arsenal's reputation is what it is.

There are some things I like about how we play in patches but I find myself asking "why?" with so many passages of play and the on field decision making. Is it just youth and experience or Arteta or a mixture of both, dunno.


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Post #536522  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:40 am 
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https://www.onlinegooner.com/articles/view/5815

This rating is generous on Ode. I would give him 0/10. Totally anonymous. Nothing useful from him to get our attacking play going.

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Post #536523  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:36 am 
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I had a feeling those that thought we'd get 6 points from the 2 games after the break were a bit optimistic. A point is not great but we'd have easily lost this game over a month ago.

I'm very happy for Vieira though. He has them playing well even without their best player. Palace fans will leave seeing it as 2 points lost while Arsenal fans left seeing it as a lucky point gained.

I've said before I've always liked Lacazette but I understood why Arsenal fans wanted to let him go. Maybe we will still do that. I don't think there is much Lacazette can do to be taken off the selling block.

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Post #536524  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:55 am 
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It’s the lack of goals that will be the end of Arteta. Not getting a tune out of these players when you’ve been in the job almost two years and spent some serious money is not a good look. Certain areas have definitely improved but our passive forward play will be the death knell for him.

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Post #536525  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:57 am 
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One of the particularly damning things for Arteta last night was how Vieira in the space of 3 months has turned Palace in to a direct counter attack only team to a team with an organised all pitch press, high line and clear plan of attacking football. Vieira must be kicking himself that he decided to settle for the 2-1 with 10 minutes to go.

He’s been in the job longer but you could also add Potter in his in the way he’s changed Brighton from a very dull defensive team to a very good football team


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Post #536526  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:00 am 
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Our build up play is so slow. The problem stems from not getting the ball through the lines from back to front. For this you need a few key things.
1. Players with good enough passing to play these balls - well that’s exactly why we recruited White and Gabriel.
2. Movement from the players receiving the ball. I think this is the bigger problem as we seem to empty the centre of the pitch and there seems to be a lack of options for the defence


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Post #536527  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:03 am 
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I do think its time for a change.

Arteta has had two years in charge, has spent a fair amount of money but is yet to produce a side that either excites the fans or gets the desired results. It seems that whatever group of players he has at his disposal he cannot get a decent tune out of them. Certainly not a tune worth listening to anyway.

I am sad to say that because another upheaval is the last thing we need but sometimes you just have to make difficult decisions for the good of the club.

I have seen very little in terms of Arteta's teams selections, tactics, intra-game management, man management skills etc that lead me to think this guy is the real deal, he just needs time.


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Post #536528  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:07 am 
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The harsh reality is that Ødegaard is not playing well enough to be in the team but our options creatively are limited. Ode has a lovely soft touch, excellent technical skills and a decent range of passing but he appears relatively slow and is too easy to shove off the ball. At the moment he just does not influence games enough to justify his inclusion.

He was Ozil-like yesterday and I mean the anonymous Özil. He works far harder but we bought him to dictate games and create chances not disappear from them.


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Post #536529  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:12 am 
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I thought the defending for both their goals was very poor.

Partey made a horrific mistake but Benteke side stepped Gabriel far too easily to get his shot away and no one closed down Edouard.


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Post #536530  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:18 am 
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Darren wrote:
It’s the lack of goals that will be the end of Arteta. Not getting a tune out of these players when you’ve been in the job almost two years and spent some serious money is not a good look. Certain areas have definitely improved but our passive forward play will be the death knell for him.


Hi Darren,

I agree. Our inability to create chances and score goals means that every single game is a 95 min struggle. Every side in the PL has at least one player who can hurt you and all it takes is a set play, a moment of individual brilliance or a defensive error and, hey presto, you are in trouble.


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Post #536531  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:19 am 
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Darren wrote:
It’s the lack of goals that will be the end of Arteta. Not getting a tune out of these players when you’ve been in the job almost two years and spent some serious money is not a good look. Certain areas have definitely improved but our passive forward play will be the death knell for him.

Yeah, pretty much this. I'm at the stage now where it's just waiting for it to get bad enough that he's replaced, and then hopefully we can move on. The squad is good. We have good players for every position, most of them at a good age too.

Arteta is running out of excuses; he's been given time, he's been given money, he's been able to make his signings, and the football continues to be absolutely dreary. Moyes didn't need two years to get West Ham playing good football, Benitez quickly got Everton to perform, Tuchel made an instant impact at Chelsea. I'm struggling to see any evidence that Arteta can get the team playing good attacking football, and after two years in charge I think that's a statement that can be made with some certainty.


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Post #536532  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:47 am 
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We miss Xhaka. I know people won't like to hear it but Partey on his own can't hold the midfield. Lokonga even less so. For games like these Aubamayang and Lacazette upfront.

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Post #536533  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:50 am 
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Disagree, some one is smoking the funny stuff.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/arsenal-let-go-gem-some-fans-accuse-mikel-arteta-committing-transfer-mistake?key4=skfootballfb&utm_source=FBAUTOFEED&utm_medium=SKFootballFB

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Post #536534  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:52 am 
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Gunfire wrote:
We miss Xhaka. I know people won't like to hear it but Partey on his own can't hold the midfield. Lokonga even less so. For games like these Aubamayang and Lacazette upfront.

Yes even more sideways passing was precisely what we needed last night.


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Post #536535  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:33 am 
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I went to the game last night and it was pretty dire. I came away from the game thinking this simply isnt working under Arteta. We can always point to unfortunate moments in a game (individual errors, injuries, refereeing mistakes etc) but he has had 2 years to develop a playing style yet we are hovering around mid table playing dull, formulaic football. He has made improvements by culling some of the freeloaders, signing some promising young players, and improving the defense, but we are blunt as an attacking force. We are simply less than the sum of our parts and that is squrely on the manager. I would take a chance on someone like Potter as he seems to quietly improve teams.


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Post #536536  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:34 am 
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Gunfire wrote:
We miss Xhaka. I know people won't like to hear it but Partey on his own can't hold the midfield. Lokonga even less so. For games like these Aubamayang and Lacazette upfront.

Yes even more sideways passing was precisely what we needed last night.


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Post #536537  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:54 am 
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Gunfire wrote:
We miss Xhaka. I know people won't like to hear it but Partey on his own can't hold the midfield. Lokonga even less so. For games like these Aubamayang and Lacazette upfront.

I agree. The stats show the idea Xhaka always passes the ball sideways or backwards is a nonsense. However, ignoring that claim (as it should be), Xhaka is often central to us playing more effectively. I still remember DHD’s post a while back (probably quite some while but not long enough to forget it).

For all the moans about him, many of which are appropriate including a lack of pace and a proneness to horrible mistakes, albeit there frequency (as they were with Mustafi) are probably exaggerated, DHD said we routinely look either worse without him or better with him in the team. I cannot recall which way round DHD put it but they add up to the same thing.

Is that a coincidence? Considering the frequency for which it happens I doubt it. I think Rich (himself an occasional critic of Xhaka) provided a rational explanation for it last night.


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Post #536538  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:27 am 
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Hazuki wrote:
Darren wrote:
It’s the lack of goals that will be the end of Arteta. Not getting a tune out of these players when you’ve been in the job almost two years and spent some serious money is not a good look. Certain areas have definitely improved but our passive forward play will be the death knell for him.

Yeah, pretty much this. I'm at the stage now where it's just waiting for it to get bad enough that he's replaced, and then hopefully we can move on. The squad is good. We have good players for every position, most of them at a good age too.

Arteta is running out of excuses; he's been given time, he's been given money, he's been able to make his signings, and the football continues to be absolutely dreary. Moyes didn't need two years to get West Ham playing good football, Benitez quickly got Everton to perform, Tuchel made an instant impact at Chelsea. I'm struggling to see any evidence that Arteta can get the team playing good attacking football, and after two years in charge I think that's a statement that can be made with some certainty.

I have to agree with you both on Arteta. We have spent a lot of money in the last year (or thereabouts) on new players. As a result we have a first eleven that you correctly observed yesterday Hazuki (I caught up with posts I’d missed on the way home from the game) that any club outside the top six would kill for. Recently I listed our back up team as well. We have a young team and squad that is comfortably strong enough to qualify for the Europa League. I would actually say easily instead of comfortably, as there are managers both in the Premier League and abroad who could get more out the players we have than Arteta.

The point that we look as far from being in Europe as it’s possible to be, apart from geographically being in the continent, with the players Arsenal have can in my view be put fairly and squarely down to Arteta.


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Post #536539  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:53 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:

As reputable a site as sportskeeda.com reporting what 'some fans' are thinking? I can't click on this link quickly enough! That's the unique content of the Steve Gleiber forum that keeps me coming back.

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Post #536540  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:06 am 
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Play Lacazette and Aubameyang! Yeah well we’ve tried that and it doesn’t work.

We miss Xhaka ! Yeah right my arse blokes a liability. You won’t find 2 worse performances than in our first 2 games this season.

Drop Ødegaard! Well sure his vanishing act can frustrating but he’s probably our most creative player bar Saka. If you pull him you are only left with Emiles bluster (which only works half the time I might add)

Bring Martinelli on earlier! start him etc etc. Honestly he’s not the match winner many think he is.

The tactics are negative ! Wot Under what the last 3 managers. I see Unai Emery is getting linked to the Newcastle job. He’d be a great choice

Same old stuff gets bandied out after every mediocre or bad result.


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Post #536541  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:30 am 
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We do miss Xhaka for the balance he gives the team. We all know he will drop a ball and cost us 3-4 games a season and the main reasons I don’t like him are the way he dives in, gets dribbled past and pulls back opponents too frequently and in his bad games doesn’t give the defenders passing lines to get the ball to him. But….it’s the way Arteta wants this team set he is crucial for the balance - so much so that it’s baffling that Arteta doesn’t put another midfielder in his place and try to get him to replicate Xhaka’s instructions as much as possible.
Xhaka stays deeper which allows Partey to engage higher up the pitch - for me this suits Partey’s game more than being the sole screening mid. Xhaka also drops in to that half back left position which allows Tierney to bomb on and subsequently the left winger to drift inside and make closer combinations with the striker and No.10.

Last night Tierney was ineffective. He had a poor game but if he bombs on who is going to cover him? Ødegaard won’t and if Partey drifts that way the entire central mid is left open - like Spurs did against us!
So last night we had neither full back pushing on and couldn’t get the ball in to Ødegaard and Emile Smith Rowe in those half spaces.

My view on Arteta’s way of playing is that for us to get a good performance, not even a great one, just a performance with sustained attacking threat and fluidity needs every component of his side to play well and function exactly as planned. If someone drops off form or a component is missing it all seems to fall apart.


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Post #536542  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:04 am 
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If ever you wanted to hand pick a referee who was going to prove he can make the big decision (even if it’s wrong) you’d pick Mike Dean. I always think with Dean he goes out of his way to give penalties and red cards as if to prove he’s brave enough to make these game changing decisions and not sit on the fence of a non-decision which is a common criticism of referees. And yet with the McArthur foul on Saka he didn’t bring out the red card. The more I watch it the more awful it looks. It’s a shocking challenge and I’m surprised more Arsenal players didn’t kick off at McArthur more, or someone putting in a revenge reducer on him in the second half. Shocking decision


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Post #536543  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:22 am 
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Rich wrote:
If ever you wanted to hand pick a referee who was going to prove he can make the big decision (even if it’s wrong) you’d pick Mike Dean. I always think with Dean he goes out of his way to give penalties and red cards as if to prove he’s brave enough to make these game changing decisions and not sit on the fence of a non-decision which is a common criticism of referees. And yet with the McArthur foul on Saka he didn’t bring out the red card. The more I watch it the more awful it looks. It’s a shocking challenge and I’m surprised more Arsenal players didn’t kick off at McArthur more, or someone putting in a revenge reducer on him in the second half. Shocking decision

Dean’s performance had nothing whatsoever to do with Arsenal’s disappointing display last night. It’s too easy, in my view, to get sidetracked by individual refereeing mistakes they may or may not have made. These are routinely subjective viewpoints anyway, unless it’s a ball having (or not) crossed a line or some offside calls.

You may consider McArthur’s foul shocking. At the game without the benefit of television replays, I didn’t. A booking maybe. But I’m quite sure Dean could give an entirely rational explanation for the decision he made at the time. I’m equally certain other referees could as well.

It is way more important in my view to look at stuff totally independent of refereeing decisions.


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Post #536544  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:30 am 
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Bernard wrote:
It is way more important in my view to look at stuff totally independent of refereeing decisions.

In the summary of last night's press conference on arsenal.com 6-7 questions were about the referee or VAR. I do think McArthur should've been sent off because of how dangerous the challenge was and how far away from the ball he really was (Saka was jumping up to control the ball over his head, McArthur kicked his calf) but that type of questions just puts the focus on all the wrong things.

In individual games a howler from the ref may influence results, but the problem last night wasn't the ref (not saying anyone here is making that claim, by the way). The problem last night was yet another in a long line of poor, uninspired and unimaginative performances from Arsenal. Performances which are the norm rather than the exception these days. We were a better attacking side even during Wenger's last 18 months or so when our attacking performances seemed to take a nosedive. And we were a better attacking side under Emery. From an Arsenal perspective, that should be the only focus.


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Post #536545  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:51 am 
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Hazuki wrote:
In individual games a howler from the ref may influence results, but the problem last night wasn't the ref (not saying anyone here is making that claim, by the way). The problem last night was yet another in a long line of poor, uninspired and unimaginative performances from Arsenal. Performances which are the norm rather than the exception these days. We were a better attacking side even during Wenger's last 18 months or so when our attacking performances seemed to take a nosedive. And we were a better attacking side under Emery. From an Arsenal perspective, that should be the only focus.

I fully agree that nobody is making that claim here, not even Rich who in my view goes overboard about referees. I think you’re right about our performances, which are independent of referees. That was the primary objective of my earlier post.

Changing subjects, one thing that I haven’t seen discussed here yet looked possible at the game was whether Ramsdale should have kept one of the Palace goals out. It was clearly a hard hit shot, but appeared pretty well straight at Ramsdale. But my seat isn’t directly behind either goal. I tend to see shots, even firmly struck ones, that are almost straight at the keeper as not only saveable but as goalkeeping errors when they go in.

Am I being unfair and it wasn’t almost straight at Ramsdale?


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Post #536546  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:40 pm 
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Sorry, I don't miss Xhaka at all. If we need Xhaka to play well/better, then pack it in.

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Post #536547  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:04 pm 
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I wonder if McArthur went momentarily blind or suffered some sort of hallucination.

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Post #536548  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:13 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
In individual games a howler from the ref may influence results, but the problem last night wasn't the ref (not saying anyone here is making that claim, by the way). The problem last night was yet another in a long line of poor, uninspired and unimaginative performances from Arsenal. Performances which are the norm rather than the exception these days. We were a better attacking side even during Wenger's last 18 months or so when our attacking performances seemed to take a nosedive. And we were a better attacking side under Emery. From an Arsenal perspective, that should be the only focus.

I fully agree that nobody is making that claim here, not even Rich who in my view goes overboard about referees. I think you’re right about our performances, which are independent of referees. That was the primary objective of my earlier post.

Changing subjects, one thing that I haven’t seen discussed here yet looked possible at the game was whether Ramsdale should have kept one of the Palace goals out. It was clearly a hard hit shot, but appeared pretty well straight at Ramsdale. But my seat isn’t directly behind either goal. I tend to see shots, even firmly struck ones, that are almost straight at the keeper as not only saveable but as goalkeeping errors when they go in.

Am I being unfair and it wasn’t almost straight at Ramsdale?

I think it would be slightly harsh to blame Ramsdale. It wasn't great keeping and you would want a top level keeper to save it but it was a hard shot and Edouard was very close.

Ben White's defending for the goal was abysmal. He backed off into the box instead of engaging Edouard. Really terrible.

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Post #536549  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:24 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Play Lacazette and Aubameyang! Yeah well we’ve tried that and it doesn’t work.

We miss Xhaka ! Yeah right my arse blokes a liability. You won’t find 2 worse performances than in our first 2 games this season.

Drop Ødegaard! Well sure his vanishing act can frustrating but he’s probably our most creative player bar Saka. If you pull him you are only left with Emiles bluster (which only works half the time I might add)

Bring Martinelli on earlier! start him etc etc. Honestly he’s not the match winner many think he is.

The tactics are negative ! Wot Under what the last 3 managers. I see Unai Emery is getting linked to the Newcastle job. He’d be a great choice

Same old stuff gets bandied out after every mediocre or bad result.

Same old stuff happens on the pitch so it is hardly surprising that the same criticisms are raised.

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Post #536550  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:28 pm 
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dec wrote:
Ben White's defending for the goal was abysmal. He backed off into the box instead of engaging Edouard. Really terrible.

Thought the same with Gabriel for their first goal. It's not easy when a player comes at a standing defender with speed (although in Benteke's case, 'speed' is very much a relative term) but Gabriel just let him have a free shot way too easily in my opinion.


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Post #536551  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:28 pm 
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dec wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Changing subjects, one thing that I haven’t seen discussed here yet looked possible at the game was whether Ramsdale should have kept one of the Palace goals out. It was clearly a hard hit shot, but appeared pretty well straight at Ramsdale. But my seat isn’t directly behind either goal. I tend to see shots, even firmly struck ones, that are almost straight at the keeper as not only saveable but as goalkeeping errors when they go in.

Am I being unfair and it wasn’t almost straight at Ramsdale?

I think it would be slightly harsh to blame Ramsdale. It wasn't great keeping and you would want a top level keeper to save it but it was a hard shot and Edouard was very close.

Ben White's defending for the goal was abysmal. He backed off into the box instead of engaging Edouard. Really terrible.

Thanks for the Ramsdale comment dec. Although your thoughts do make me wonder if I was being unfair, even if I was slightly harsh. I would like him to be a top level keeper and despite being very close, it wasn’t point blank.

I agree wholly with you suggestion about White’s defending though. It was very poor defending to the extent that I don’t feel your use of the word ‘abysmal’ is grossly over the top.


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Post #536552  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:31 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
dec wrote:
Ben White's defending for the goal was abysmal. He backed off into the box instead of engaging Edouard. Really terrible.

Thought the same with Gabriel for their first goal. It's not easy when a player comes at a standing defender with speed (although in Benteke's case, 'speed' is very much a relative term) but Gabriel just let him have a free shot way too easily in my opinion.

I’d agree about Gabriel for that goal too.


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Post #536553  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:56 pm 
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I would read the name Alan Sugar and Tottenham and knew nothing about the man. I thoroughly enjoyed this piece on him. Especially his saying the worst mistake of his life were the years dedicated running the club. You all probably know his story, but its new to me.

(Warrior for whatever reason, probably my own fault, the youtube URL didn't work)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeQ7i9_rA6g&t=653s

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Post #536554  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:02 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
dec wrote:
Ben White's defending for the goal was abysmal. He backed off into the box instead of engaging Edouard. Really terrible.

Thought the same with Gabriel for their first goal. It's not easy when a player comes at a standing defender with speed (although in Benteke's case, 'speed' is very much a relative term) but Gabriel just let him have a free shot way too easily in my opinion.

The difference between the two was that Gabriel got caught square on. That's obviously bad defending, but if you get caught in that position it is really difficult to adjust and a forward can leave you for dead. With White he just kept backing off which was ridiculous.

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Post #536555  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:12 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
dec wrote:
I think it would be slightly harsh to blame Ramsdale. It wasn't great keeping and you would want a top level keeper to save it but it was a hard shot and Edouard was very close.

Ben White's defending for the goal was abysmal. He backed off into the box instead of engaging Edouard. Really terrible.

Thanks for the Ramsdale comment dec. Although your thoughts do make me wonder if I was being unfair, even if I was slightly harsh. I would like him to be a top level keeper and despite being very close, it wasn’t point blank.

I agree wholly with you suggestion about White’s defending though. It was very poor defending to the extent that I don’t feel your use of the word ‘abysmal’ is grossly over the top.

I think that is the mot juste.

Gabriel's was bit more forgivable because it happened so quickly and one could argue that he didn't have time to react.

Ramsdale's non-save would be in that grey area ... it would have been a very good save but one a top class keeper would expect to make.

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Post #536556  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:19 pm 
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Blaming Ramsdale for that goal is absolutely searching. Like Blaming seaman for the goal giggs scored againest him in that semi.

Totally let down by his defence. Let the guy take a free hit ffs


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Post #536557  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:22 pm 
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dec wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
Thought the same with Gabriel for their first goal. It's not easy when a player comes at a standing defender with speed (although in Benteke's case, 'speed' is very much a relative term) but Gabriel just let him have a free shot way too easily in my opinion.

The difference between the two was that Gabriel got caught square on. That's obviously bad defending, but if you get caught in that position it is really difficult to adjust and a forward can leave you for dead.

Yes, you can't legislate for Partey losing the ball in that area. Gabriel was absolutely sold there.

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Post #536558  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:28 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Blaming Ramsdale for that goal is absolutely searching. Like Blaming seaman for the goal giggs scored againest him in that semi.

Totally let down by his defence. Let the guy take a free hit ffs


Obviously the blame for our goals is on Partey and White.

Its not blaming him to say that it was savable but would have take a great save. What is your point actually? Are you claiming it was unsavable? I'd bet that Ramsdale wouldn't.

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Post #536559  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:41 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Gunfire wrote:
We miss Xhaka. I know people won't like to hear it but Partey on his own can't hold the midfield. Lokonga even less so. For games like these Aubamayang and Lacazette upfront.

Yes even more sideways passing was precisely what we needed last night.

Getting overrun in midfield is not my idea of fun. Each to his own, I suppose.

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Post #536560  Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:52 pm 
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I have only seen highlights but it looked like two midfield errors caused the goals more than defensive ones? Ironic that our opponents are managed by a man who rarely lost a midfield duel. Also I can't accept lucky Arsenal for scoring in added time - a goal in the first five minutes and who calls that lucky? Palace are no pushovers, so great effort for the guys to keep at it right to the whistle in yet another London derby. As Tony used to say, that point gained might just be the one that matters in the end.

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