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Post #527881  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:45 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
[

Our fans don’t understand it’s a process. Klopp lost 12 games and finished 8th in his first season but the Liverpool fans could see a structure was being formed. Arteta has won the fa cup and our lot are advocating his dismissal in his first full season if he doesn’t win a European trophy.

Nobody is saying he should be sacked for failing to win the Europa League. It is the quite dismal form across the whole season that is the issue.

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Post #527882  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:50 pm 
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dec wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
[

Our fans don’t understand it’s a process. Klopp lost 12 games and finished 8th in his first season but the Liverpool fans could see a structure was being formed. Arteta has won the fa cup and our lot are advocating his dismissal in his first full season if he doesn’t win a European trophy.

Nobody is saying he should be sacked for failing to win the Europa League. It is the quite dismal form across the whole season that is the issue.

Not here but many are, and wait in the event of us going out or losing the final. Our exit seems to be some final straw, the seasons form is not indifferent to Klopps “dismal” first as I pointed out


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Post #527883  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:02 pm 
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Floyd / Chauvin verdict is in.

Announcement due any moment.


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Post #527884  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
dec wrote:
Nobody is saying he should be sacked for failing to win the Europa League. It is the quite dismal form across the whole season that is the issue.

Not here but many are, and wait in the event of us going out or losing the final. Our exit seems to be some final straw, the seasons form is not indifferent to Klopps “dismal” first as I pointed out

Well not quite. Liverpool lost 10 matches and had lost a couple before Klopp took over. He led them to two finals....but Arteta's Cup win tops that. In Klopp's second season they finished top 4. Klopp had also won a couple of league titles in Germany. Comparing Arteta to Klopp is wishful thinking in my view.

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Post #527885  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:07 pm 
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DHD wrote:
Floyd / Chauvin verdict is in.

Announcement due any moment.


Guilty on all counts


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Post #527886  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:15 pm 
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HoddGooner wrote:
socrates wrote:

Question is, where do we go from here. Kroenke, by being one of the main proponents of the new league, has shown he believes that is the way for Arsenal to become a competitive force again. He clearly does not believe he can do it under the current circumstances, level of income and level of spending.

It's alright for City and Chelsea to take the moral high ground because they have owners with bottomless pockets prepared to spend their money.

Why do you say he was one of the main proponents? My understanding is that, just like city, chavs and spuds, we were only invited to join after Liverpool and united, along with Madrid and Barca had basically set this up... basically in the last 10 days


Hi Hodd,

I thought I read he was set to be one of the vice-chairmen of the Superleague, along with John Henry and Joel Glazer? That implies more than just a last minute arrival at the party, unless every club's owner was set to be a vice-chariman.


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Post #527887  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:18 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Understand what your saying but He won’t get the time Haz, he just won’t.

Our fans don’t understand it’s a process. Klopp lost 12 games and finished 8th in his first season but the Liverpool fans could see a structure was being formed. Arteta has won the fa cup and our lot are advocating his dismissal in his first full season if he doesn’t win a European trophy.

Our fans are little different to those of other big clubs. Every club has a mix of fans from different class backgrounds, gender, spreads of wealth (rich, middling and poor), age profiles (young, middle-aged, old), ranges of ethnicity, sexual orientation, political beliefs (far left to far right and everywhere in between), and religions (which probably has most relevance in and around Glasgow and Rangers have Catholic fans just like Celtic have Protestant fans).

I have a long-term close friend from Merseyside who supports Liverpool. They have fans who lack patience with Klopp, just as some Arsenal fans have with Arteta and had with Emery and Wenger. Tottenham and Chelsea fans lose patience with their managers just as much as Arsenal fans do with theirs. It’s the way modern society has moved, perhaps with social media sites in the internet era making it more obvious and intense. Arsenal fans are no better or worse with regards patience with managers (at least to a material extent) than other clubs.

If Arsenal don’t win the Europa League and Arteta gets sacked, it won’t be any more to do with the fans than any other sacking of managers at big clubs. If it happens, and I don’t expect it to, I think you got the reason a short while ago when you suggested Kroenke may want to deflect blame from himself.


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Post #527888  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:19 pm 
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socrates wrote:
HoddGooner wrote:
Why do you say he was one of the main proponents? My understanding is that, just like city, chavs and spuds, we were only invited to join after Liverpool and united, along with Madrid and Barca had basically set this up... basically in the last 10 days


Hi Hodd,

I thought I read he was set to be one of the vice-chairmen of the Superleague, along with John Henry and Joel Glazer? That implies more than just a last minute arrival at the party, unless every club's owner was set to be a vice-chariman.


It’s nonsense soc

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football ... er-league/


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Post #527889  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:54 pm 
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We have just baled too.


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Post #527890  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:55 pm 
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Arsenal have withdrawn from ESL.

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Post #527891  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:56 pm 
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Lots of reports that Arsenal are formulating plans to get out of the super league.
Absolute shambles.

Hope the planned protests for Friday night before the game still go ahead as a Kronke Out protest


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Post #527892  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:56 pm 
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Out.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/dailycanno ... ports/amp/

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Post #527893  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:02 pm 
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Waiting to see if Spurs leave. They needed the ESL money the most. What with a cupboard so bare, even old Mother Hubbard herself would be ashamed. :angel4:

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Post #527894  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:15 pm 
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Now time to get Kroenke out too.

*%^@*** weasel


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Post #527895  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:21 pm 
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Got this from Twitter:
Sp*rs sacking Mourinho and intending to use the Super League money to pay his compensation! Brilliant!

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Post #527896  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:22 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Now time to get Kroenke out too.

*%^@*** weasel


#KroenkeOut

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Post #527897  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:23 pm 
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Well maybe....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.footba ... 430504.amp

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Post #527898  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:24 pm 
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john1 wrote:
Got this from Twitter:
Sp*rs sacking Mourinho and intending to use the Super League money to pay his compensation! Brilliant!


:icon_mrgreen1:

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Post #527899  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:26 pm 
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:14laughter:

One by one the cockroaches are scattering.

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Post #527900  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:30 pm 
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Must say I didn't expect it to implode so quickly. A complete farce from start to finish by all clubs involved.


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Post #527901  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:32 pm 
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Arsenal have written an open letter to fans.
“We made a mistake and we apologise”

Lots of other statements from other English clubs. Arsenal the only ones to actually apologise and admit their mistake so far.


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Post #527902  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:34 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Arsenal have written an open letter to fans.
“We made a mistake and we apologise”

Lots of other statements from other English clubs. Arsenal the only ones to actually apologise and admit their mistake so far.


Doesn’t make it any better.

#KroenkeOut

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Post #527903  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:52 pm 
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john1 wrote:
Rich wrote:
Arsenal have written an open letter to fans.
“We made a mistake and we apologise”

Lots of other statements from other English clubs. Arsenal the only ones to actually apologise and admit their mistake so far.


Doesn’t make it any better.

#KroenkeOut

I agree that Kroenke must go. He has irretrievably damaged our reputation. Only politicians can make such a clusterf..k and get away with it.

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Post #527904  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:21 pm 
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At least we were unbeaten in the ESL...

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Post #527905  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:31 pm 
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We learned a couple things. The owners want a super league. The owners flew up a trial balloon and saw that their timing is wrong. If anyone thinks this is the end of it, they are sadly mistaken. They will simply bide their time and wait for the right moment. In the interim, greasing the wheels where they can. This didn't kill the league it merely delayed it. The 1 percent get their way...eventually. In today's world they do. Naïve to think otherwise.

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Post #527906  Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:45 pm 
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A thought - if the ESL had become a successful reality, and Arsenal had turned down the invitation to join, would our fans have been content? As one of the older generation who expected no more than the occasional league or cup trophy, I was not especially pro or con this latest initiative. I suspect the younger fan base, developed primarily as TV spectators over the last 20 years might think differently?

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Post #527907  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:20 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
We learned a couple things. The owners want a super league. The owners flew up a trial balloon and saw that their timing is wrong. If anyone thinks this is the end of it, they are sadly mistaken. They will simply bide their time and wait for the right moment. In the interim, greasing the wheels where they can. This didn't kill the league it merely delayed it. The 1 percent get their way...eventually. In today's world they do. Naïve to think otherwise.
AG I was thinking the same. A major criticism of the ESL was its 'closed shop' nature and the lack of relegation, but presumably that model, along with salary caps and player drafts, ensures some level of long-term economic stability for participating clubs. The debt issue will still have to be addressed by European football, and that is why the ESL idea will not go away.

The ESL was slammed for being non-competitive, but that is already the case with most European football leagues in which just a few teams dominate. Since it began the Premiership has been won by just 7 clubs and in the same period Bundesliga by 6; La Liga and Serie A by 5. In contrast the closed NFL has seen 16 different clubs as champions.

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Post #527908  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:07 am 
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omoh, the owners see the potential money to be made and its staggering. So, now we're to believe, they'll forget about it and leave that potential amount of money out there. The league was about money. A god awful amount of money. They won't give that up. The pandemic has taught them that the money they were already making wasn't enough. Kroenke and the American owners specifically are likely saying. "Look at the amount of money we are making in the NFL. A sport that is only followed in one country? Imagine how much we will make with this with a similar contract that the NFL and NBA gets in America as well as the rest of the world?"

No, this isn't going away forever. Truth is, the owners don't care how non competitive it is. The push back is why they have halted it temporarily. They'll regroup and as I said, bide their time.

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Post #527909  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:11 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
socrates wrote:

Hi Hodd,

I thought I read he was set to be one of the vice-chairmen of the Superleague, along with John Henry and Joel Glazer? That implies more than just a last minute arrival at the party, unless every club's owner was set to be a vice-chariman.


It’s nonsense soc

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football ... er-league/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/12994980/european-super-league-fifa-gianni-infantino/
I was talking about the specific deal, not the fact that we weren’t exploring options
And I clearly said it was “my understanding” so not nonsense at all

I think we all agree this was stupidity of the highest order and the sooner we can get a new owner the better

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Post #527910  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am 
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HoddGooner wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/12994980/european-super-league-fifa-gianni-infantino/
I was talking about the specific deal, not the fact that we weren’t exploring options
And I clearly said it was “my understanding” so not nonsense at all

I think we all agree this was stupidity of the highest order and the sooner we can get a new owner the better


You said we were not the main proponents when clearly if Raul Sanelhi said in 2018 “There is nothing secret,” Sanllehi said.“We need to make sure Arsenal is in the driving seat of anything that may happen” and that we were central to the discussions.


Sorry Hodd, Something like this deal wasn’t constructed in the last 10 days. Arsenal would have needed to consult with lawyers, publicists even and would have sought assurances on the commercial deal streaming provider DAZN had agreed. All this makes our apologies yesterday hysterical which we can agree on.


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Post #527911  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:30 am 
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Just woken up to find that it was a bad dream. All 6 English have clubs withdrawn.

I have now just found that similar is happening in Italy and Spain. It would be interesting to see the order of deserting. The reporting on this is very unclear. Did all English clubs jump first or was it mixed?

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Post #527912  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:34 am 
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Well I'm disappointed for one. We missed an opportunity to take the Cities out of the equation and lostc the chance to concentrate on promoting our youngsters ahead of paying out sick amounts to buy so called stars and pay obscene wages to them.

We missed a chance to make football about football.


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Post #527913  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:38 am 
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bubblechris wrote:
Well I'm disappointed for one. We missed an opportunity to take the Cities out of the equation and lostc the chance to concentrate on promoting our youngsters ahead of paying out sick amounts to buy so called stars and pay obscene wages to them.

We missed a chance to make football about football.

Not sure I follow your train of thought on this. Are you of the view we would not need to buy any new players because we would be guaranteed money and a place each year if we joined.

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Post #527914  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:52 am 
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DHD wrote:
DHD wrote:
Floyd / Chauvin verdict is in.

Announcement due any moment.


Guilty on all counts


Didn't watch any of it. The very fact that it took a lot of protesting and a great deal of public pressure for it to actually go through the process says it all. There are many such similar cases. 99% get no media attention and go unaddressed. Also, the very fact an open and shut case stood a good chance of being found not guilty is again, a symptom of the state of affairs. Being relieved that an open and shut case was adjudicated properly isn't cause for celebration for me. It should be the norm. If the cop did that to the son of a business man in Beverly Hills, it wouldn't even have been a trial. He'd have taken a plea. The cop took a chance with the jury because he knew that there were enough prior cases of cops getting off under similar cases considering the victim, for him to take that chance. The public pressure perhaps made a difference in this particular case.

The case of Breonna Taylor in Louisville, Kentucky was, in my humble opinion, a far better example of the state of things. Police went to the wrong home, no knock warrant, didn't announce themselves, lied that they did, shot her while naked multiple times. Her boyfriend shot once in self defense with his legally obtained gun and wounded a cop. Obviously he had no idea it was a police officer. He obviously thought it was a home invasion. He got arrested for the temerity of wounding a police officer who had no right to be in his home unannounced and it took a lot of public pressure for him to be released...weeks later. The matter would have ended right there and then. It took a lot of public pressure, protesting and weeks, months later for it to be addressed and even then, the government, police department is trying to throw it. I doubt anything will come of it.

If you notice in such cases, the NRA (National Rifel Association) never, ever, ever says anything? Their mantra is people should have the right to own a firearm for self defense. Philandro Castille in Minnesota, registered gun owner, shot while retrieving his license by a cop. 12 year old Tamir Rice of Cleveland, shot within 2 seconds (video shows) of a cop getting out of his car because he had a toy gun. Cleveland is in Ohio, an open carry state. By law the cops should have asked (a 12 year old boy) if he had a license. Nothing came of it. Nothing happened to the cops.

The NRA didn't say anything in any of these cases. One would ask why? Well, there is a common denominator in all these cases. The NRA's main support is from these far right, militia types. The truth is these 2nd amendment, I have a right to a gun, far right types really only want themselves to have guns. The NRA markets themselves to these groups telling them in coded speech they need to protect themselves aganst people like Floyd. If you strip away the rhetoric, the NRA only intercedes politically, financially when its one of these far right yahoo types. They backed the insurgents who went to the Michigan state house for example.

The military is finally, quietly getting rid of the large extremist, supremacist members among its rank and file and a lot of them are officers https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 566463001/ The police departments large and small across the America have 1000s of them.

We're irrevocably broken. We are too nationalistic, prideful and frankly blind, to see it. Mass shootings are normalized and accepted as part of American culture now. I can only imagine what will happen when we have the next big recession and many of these guys have lost their jobs, feel neglected and lost and all they have are the guns and rounds of bullets left they spent their meager resources on. Trust me, the politicians know this and are scared sh*tless. The Capital building invasion finally made even the Republicans in power see the issue.

The BLM protests, Antifa, and others now have a possible similar reaction from the left. Its going to be messy. Very messy. When the politicians themselves get targeted, is when it will be addressed. They were fine with 'thoughts and prayers' when it was the citizenry getting shot in mass shootings, etc. The Capital Building and the Michigan state house made them vulnerable. They know it but still have no idea how to address the issue or even aware of the root causes.

On seemingly a different issue but related, is that Biden announcing we are pulling out totally out of Afghanistan. (I have my doubts but...). The Republicans obviously have an issue with it but what may be surprising to some (not me) is the Democratic leadership taking issue as well (as they did with leaving Syria). The infamous military-industrial complex is all powerful. They have both parties. They are located in many blue states such as California, Washington state.

The UK, France, Germany, our allies must know this and see this. If I can, some regular schmuck, average Joe, literally in his boxers typing on a pc (sorry for the visual), can see this, your governments know this. I assume yours and other governments are taking all this into account and are quietly preparing itself. I think the 'special relationship' is pretty much gone. There are mutual concerns that both parties still have, especially in terms of security. That's a given. But I think America has broken the trust. The long time bureaucrats who worked together still have a relationship but overall, I have to assume, the next time we want to go full steam ahead in some foreign conflict and expect the UK to come along, the U.S. government will be surprised at the response and response may be a bit more terse than we're used to.

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Post #527915  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:53 am 
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lol...rant over.

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Post #527916  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:12 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
lol...rant over.

It’s always interesting to get from a country the view from an ordinary person.

In the sixties and seventies for me television series promoted the true American dream. It looked glamorous and better and aspirational and upwardly mobile whilst being the clear world leader in all that was good.

Suffice to say I no longer have that view.

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Post #527917  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:26 am 
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bubblechris wrote:
Well I'm disappointed for one.

Actually, I think there's two of you.


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Post #527918  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:57 am 
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If this is anywhere near true then the nature of what was intended would just destroy football as we have always known it.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amer ... 967372ce29

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Post #527919  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:04 am 
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It is a bit rich that some media outlets are holding City and Chelsea up for some sort of praise because they were the first to pull out of the super league. With unlimited money already they can easily afford the shelve the idea. On a purely competitive basis it isn't in the interests of City and Chelsea to have those other teams hugely inflate their income by the super league as their advantage over those teams becomes more negligible

Ironic also that whilst the other 14 clubs wore T-shirts at matches saying 'earn it' and all received wide backing from the media for doing so there has never been any such criticism from the likes of City and Chelsea not 'earning' their success.


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Post #527920  Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:09 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:
We learned a couple things. The owners want a super league. The owners flew up a trial balloon and saw that their timing is wrong. If anyone thinks this is the end of it, they are sadly mistaken. They will simply bide their time and wait for the right moment. In the interim, greasing the wheels where they can. This didn't kill the league it merely delayed it. The 1 percent get their way...eventually. In today's world they do. Naïve to think otherwise.
AG I was thinking the same. A major criticism of the ESL was its 'closed shop' nature and the lack of relegation, but presumably that model, along with salary caps and player drafts, ensures some level of long-term economic stability for participating clubs. The debt issue will still have to be addressed by European football, and that is why the ESL idea will not go away.

The ESL was slammed for being non-competitive, but that is already the case with most European football leagues in which just a few teams dominate. Since it began the Premiership has been won by just 7 clubs and in the same period Bundesliga by 6; La Liga and Serie A by 5. In contrast the closed NFL has seen 16 different clubs as champions.


Hi OMOH,

I can see both sides of the argument, but these owners are not stupid people so my sense is that apart from the obvious greed factor there is more to this than meets the eye, otherwise they would not have been prepared to take such drastic measures knowing the likely fallout and repercussions from it.....even if they massively underestimated them.

They clearly see the way the wind is blowing and that the current football business models, post covid, are simply unsustainable.

I suspect fans may have won the current battle but are a long way from winning the war. This project may have been put on the back burner but I don't think it will go away.


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