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Post #535241  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:35 pm 
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I was encouraged by yesterday's performance.

We were wasteful but at least we were creating chances to miss which is more than we had been doing for a while.

I liked Ramsdale's composure with the ball at his feet and his presence but clearly we have to see much more of him when under real pressure before drawing any conclusions.

White is very, very good on the ball and will undoubtedly create lots of openings for us with his impressive range of passing. I like the fact that he and Gabriel both have pace and can cover for each other.

Tomiyasu was promising and certainly didnt shirk the physical side of the game but again its too early to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Lokongu continues to impress.

Ødegaard shows glimpses of brilliance but needs to impose himself on games and start creating more chances and adding some goals to his game.

Emile Smith Rowe adds a directness which we lack at times.


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Post #535242  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:10 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Seen it being suggested this morning that the formation we finished the game in with Partey as a defensive midfielder and Emile Smith Rowe and Ødegaard as a midfield 2 in front of him is how Arteta hopes to set us up for most matches once people are fit. This would explain the weird system he played when he was appearing to use Xhaka as the sole midfielder and the lengthy conversation with Ødegaard mid game.

Makes a lot of sense.

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Post #535243  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:34 pm 
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So happy for Vieira first and foremost, secondarily very happy for Palace. My 'soft spot' club. Vieira has certainly endeared himself to the fans with this win. I just hope it continues. I really wish him the best. Love the guy.

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Post #535244  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:46 pm 
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I read Ben White created 3 chances yesterday. The highest total of chances created for the entire season last year was 4. Clear to see where he improves us


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Post #535245  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:48 pm 
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Tomiyasu won 7 of 8 duels contested yesterday. It’s a big area we need to improve.
His signing seems sensible in that he brings balance to the side, he fills in for the weaknesses of others.


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Post #535246  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:50 pm 
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It’s strange when I look at the core 14 or so of the squad there is a lot to like. Individually these players have a good skill set. Now the hard part is gelling them together seamlessly so they become more than the sum of their parts.


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Post #535247  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:56 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Tomiyasu won 7 of 8 duels contested yesterday. It’s a big area we need to improve.
His signing seems sensible in that he brings balance to the side, he fills in for the weaknesses of others.

Feels like such a long time since we said “the Arsenal right back had a very good game”

Such a massive plus if he keeps up that level of performance


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Post #535248  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:02 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Seen it being suggested this morning that the formation we finished the game in with Partey as a defensive midfielder and Emile Smith Rowe and Ødegaard as a midfield 2 in front of him is how Arteta hopes to set us up for most matches once people are fit. This would explain the weird system he played when he was appearing to use Xhaka as the sole midfielder and the lengthy conversation with Ødegaard mid game.

Makes a lot of sense.

Thinking about it, for this to work it also needed someone with White's range of passing at CB.


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Post #535249  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:02 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Chapman left Huddersfield in June 1925. Law left Huddersfield in March 1960, nearly 35 years later. It would astonish me if Chapman was the reason Law thought Arsenal were the Real Madrid of English football.

It would have biased him to be positive about Arsenal. It's nearly 90 years since Chapman died and we still talk about him. And we (many/most of us anyway) know about the Huddersfield link.
He's the great legend for Huddersfield, maybe even more than for us. He won their first FA Cup and first two First Division Championships. Their other was won by his team, the year he left to join us.


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Post #535250  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:36 pm 
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Pode wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Chapman left Huddersfield in June 1925. Law left Huddersfield in March 1960, nearly 35 years later. It would astonish me if Chapman was the reason Law thought Arsenal were the Real Madrid of English football.

It would have biased him to be positive about Arsenal. It's nearly 90 years since Chapman died and we still talk about him. And we (many/most of us anyway) know about the Huddersfield link.
He's the great legend for Huddersfield, maybe even more than for us. He won their first FA Cup and first two First Division Championships. Their other was won by his team, the year he left to join us.

Let’s be realistic. Chapman’s time at Huddersfield 35 years before Law left them still wouldn’t be enough to make him see Arsenal like the English Real Madrid. It’s more likely that Arsenal’s mediocrity as a team at the time didn’t turn them into a middling club.


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Post #535251  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:18 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Let’s be realistic. Chapman’s time at Huddersfield 35 years before Law left them still wouldn’t be enough to make him see Arsenal like the English Real Madrid. It’s more likely that Arsenal’s mediocrity as a team at the time didn’t turn them into a middling club.

We have to be honest. No-one has ever truly believed we were the English Real Madrid (won their 5th European Cup in a row in 1960).
Maybe it was irony at the idea of someone thinking he'd be impressed by a marble hall.
In reality, of course, he went to Manchester City, then Torino, then Manchester United, then back to Manchester City. The first three at world record fees iirc.


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Post #535252  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:19 pm 
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Pode wrote:
Maybe it was irony at the idea of someone thinking he'd be impressed by a marble hall.

Especially when they weren't really marble.


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Post #535253  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:26 pm 
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Come to think of it, has Vieira ever lost to Tottenham? That will change as manager of Palace but I can't recall us losing to them while he was wearing our shirt or if so, while he was starting.

Mourinho can say the same about Wenger I think, at least in the league. I think, but not 100 percent sure.

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Post #535254  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:52 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Come to think of it, has Vieira ever lost to Tottenham? That will change as manager of Palace but I can't recall us losing to them while he was wearing our shirt or if so, while he was starting.

Mourinho can say the same about Wenger I think, at least in the league. I think, but not 100 percent sure.


As an Arsenal player, Vieira played against Tottenham 19 times. He won 10 times, drew seven and lost just twice.

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/09/12/a ... m-hotspur/

Strange though. I can’t recall him losing. Perhaps it was in the cup?

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Post #535255  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:55 pm 
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Pode wrote:
We have to be honest. No-one has ever truly believed we were the English Real Madrid (won their 5th European Cup in a row in 1960).
Maybe it was irony at the idea of someone thinking he'd be impressed by a marble hall.

I don’t think Law ever called Arsenal the English equivalent of Real Madrid. As you correctly point out, their European record meant we weren’t. What he said was words to the effect that we were like the English Real Madrid at that time. I take that as referring to the size, reputation and stature of the club alongside others in England. Namely, one of the biggest domestically. That’s what I take it to mean.

Although it was before my time, from what my dad told me about the Swindin and Wright eras (Mee was my first manager), I just don’t think Arsenal has ever become a middling club since prior to the 1930s. Even if we’ve had mediocre teams and poor players. We clearly weren’t a top side in the Swindin and Wright period. But we were surely still a top club.

I’ll go back to my point about Manchester United (who you said had become middling at some point) and Glasgow Rangers. Manchester United’s relegation was certainly in my time. Even that didn’t make them a middling club. They came back too quickly to become middling, even though they were obviously quite a poor side when they went down.

When Rangers were relegated to the lowest (presumably professional) tier of the Scottish league structure, even that wasn’t enough for them to become a middling club. They were still one of Scotland’s two top clubs.

I honestly suspect you’re associating the status of a club too much with the quality of its team at any point. Every club, however much a top club it is, will have spells when their sides are ordinary. Celtic and Rangers have both won the Scottish title nine times in a row in my time. During those periods of domestic domination by one half of the Old Firm, it didn’t make their Glasgow rival anything other than one (so the other) of Scotland’s two top clubs. Manchester United’s relegation didn’t make them a middling club in my view, and nor did Tottenham’s who are smaller than them.

In my view the status of a club may take generations to change. Many, many years. If Rangers hadn’t worked their way up back to the Scottish Premiership with successive promotions and had stayed in Scotland’s lowest league tier for a number of decades, it may well have eventually happened. Had Manchester United gone down instead of up from their season in the second division and were still in the third or fourth tier now approaching almost fifty years later, they may well have become a middling club. It never happened, and in my view nor did they ever become a middling club in my lifetime.


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Post #535256  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:47 pm 
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You see ltg? You made me have to do research. :36angers:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9973149/Patrick-Vieira-bullied-Tottenham-years-Arsenal-hes-Crystal-Palace.html

In 16 appearances against Tottenham for the Gunners spanning nearly nine years, the Frenchman only lost once, with Arsenal winning nine of those. Vieira would often save his best for Spurs....

In November 1999, Vieira tasted defeat against Tottenham for the first and only time as an Arsenal player, but he did score his first goal against Spurs with a consolation strike after Steffen Iversen and Tim Sherwood had netted.

Can't find a video but 2 red cards for us!

1https://www.premierleague.com/match/3042

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Post #535257  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:52 pm 
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Bit more Charlie Patino


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Post #535258  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:00 pm 
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Don't get the fawning over Bielsa. Leeds play pretty football but always look like they could concede 4 or 5 whenever I've seen them play.

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Post #535259  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:20 pm 
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Seems Pepé quickly deleted a tongue-in-cheek post on Instagram about Arsenal as a joke, being in a relegation scrap. Even after the 1-0 win against Norwich.
:angel9:

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Post #535260  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:18 pm 
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Rich wrote:


Bit more Charlie Patino

It’s Phil Jones he puts on his arse too. Impressive stuff.

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Post #535261  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:44 pm 
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Once he's up to the demands physically, Patino looks ready to come into the first team squad.
Though so many seem that way from their highlights.


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Post #535262  Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:25 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
In my view the status of a club may take generations to change.

It takes time. But I still think you confuse top with big. A top club is one that can be expected to compete to be top in most years. A big club has the money/glamour/status to have a reasonable expectation of recovering top status if it has lost it. In the 1950s, Wolves were the topmost club. They moved from being a top club to being a big club, then to being a sleeping giant. I don't think you'd really count them as big any more, even though they're back in the top division.

ManU have been a big club for a very long time. They have cemented the history and Ferguson success into a giant commercial income sufficient to give them a very high chance of regaining top status whenever form drops off. They were managed by Gill and Woodward when we had Edelman, old school Friar and Gazidis and were never quite as slick. In some ways, Chelsea have been even more successful in taking on our footballing strategy of recruiting talented players very young and developing them and converting it to a highly profitable enterprise; which maybe we re hoping to imitate. That gives them a higher chance of staying big even when the dope is withdrawn.

At the moment, with the London clubs, I'd say Chelsea are a top club, Arsenal and Spurs are nearly clubs and West Ham are middling. Crystal Palace are bottom half and Brentford are relegation fodder (obviously they are trying to improve this status).
Switching to big, I'd put Arsenal top, Spurs next, then Chelsea, West Ham and Palace.
Our status being much enhanced by Wenger. Arguably, Graham was as successful a manager as Wenger (in 9 years he won two titles, one FA Cup, two League Cups and one European Cup-Winners Cup) but his teams never had the style to enhance status above the simple success level: a very good manager for topness but not as great for bigness.


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Post #535263  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:25 am 
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Pode wrote:
Bernard wrote:
In my view the status of a club may take generations to change.

It takes time. But I still think you confuse top with big. A top club is one that can be expected to compete to be top in most years. A big club has the money/glamour/status to have a reasonable expectation of recovering top status if it has lost it. In the 1950s, Wolves were the topmost club. They moved from being a top club to being a big club, then to being a sleeping giant. I don't think you'd really count them as big any more, even though they're back in the top division.

ManU have been a big club for a very long time. They have cemented the history and Ferguson success into a giant commercial income sufficient to give them a very high chance of regaining top status whenever form drops off. They were managed by Gill and Woodward when we had Edelman, old school Friar and Gazidis and were never quite as slick. In some ways, Chelsea have been even more successful in taking on our footballing strategy of recruiting talented players very young and developing them and converting it to a highly profitable enterprise; which maybe we re hoping to imitate. That gives them a higher chance of staying big even when the dope is withdrawn.

At the moment, with the London clubs, I'd say Chelsea are a top club, Arsenal and Spurs are nearly clubs and West Ham are middling. Crystal Palace are bottom half and Brentford are relegation fodder (obviously they are trying to improve this status).
Switching to big, I'd put Arsenal top, Spurs next, then Chelsea, West Ham and Palace.
Our status being much enhanced by Wenger. Arguably, Graham was as successful a manager as Wenger (in 9 years he won two titles, one FA Cup, two League Cups and one European Cup-Winners Cup) but his teams never had the style to enhance status above the simple success level: a very good manager for topness but not as great for bigness.

As I said it’s down to definitions. I actually believe it’s you getting confused by top and big. Didn’t you define top by being at the top, or I presume close to it. For me that’s a problem with your definition. As I’ve said I think you’re associating top too much with the quality of the current team. In my view a club can be a top club even when it’s team clearly isn’t going to win the league. Hence I feel a club can be defined as a top club even in periods when they have poorer teams.

You blatantly said Manchester United were a middling club at some point in living memory. In my view, no they weren’t. Even when they had a poor enough team to be relegated they were still a top club. Nor have Arsenal been a middling club which you also said we’d been in living memory, and we’re not as big a club as Manchester United.

Top, middling or bottom? For me fan base size is possibly the most vital factor in deciding that. Not the current team. I think when one talks of bigness, wealth comes more into the equation. Sure, fan base size can change but often that takes generations.

According to every estimate I’ve seen Arsenal used to have a larger fan base than Chelsea. But their success since Abramovich took over has changed that because trophy wins are one of the most crucial factors driving fan base size. Arsenal have overall won more trophies than Chelsea but the AST said because most of Chelsea’s trophies have come more recently, they have a fan base with an average younger age than Arsenal. One therefore has to assume Arsenal’s fan base are dying off at a faster rate than Chelsea’s.

Available wealth (I say available because the Kroenke family is wealthier than Abramovich) as well as fan base size is why I think Chelsea are now London’s biggest and topmost club, with Arsenal second, Tottenham third, West Ham fourth and Crystal Palace fifth. Your order for ‘biggest’ was Arsenal first, Tottenham second, Chelsea third, West Ham fourth and Crystal Palace fifth. I don’t even think Brentford are as big as Fulham. This season Fulham are in a division below Brentford.


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Post #535264  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:42 am 
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Post #535265  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:46 am 
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Pode wrote:
Once he's up to the demands physically, Patino looks ready to come into the first team squad.
Though so many seem that way from their highlights.


I'm excited about him. Fabregas wasn't much bigger if that. But we don't want to rush the lad.

PS: I recall seeing Fabregas in a reserve game in many years ago, maybe 2004, and there was a huge buzz about him. I wasn't impressed actually. But to be fair, wasn't much for him to do in that game. Ended up being my favorite player. He was my 'Liam Brady' to some extent.

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Post #535266  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:12 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:

Not this?

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Post #535267  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:27 pm 
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Watching Everton:Burnley Dyche has Burnley very well organised and competitive

We will have to be very smart how we play....they're very physical as you all know and their set pieces will put us under extreme pressure. Barnes is practically in Pickford's jersey every time they get a corner

We have to stop the supply to the front men and be quick and incisive on the break.


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Post #535268  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:09 pm 
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Tarkowski just took out Richarlison with the worst two footed challenge you have ever seen.

Guess what the ref (Atkinson) did..................


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Post #535269  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:11 pm 
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Andy Green wrote:
Watching Everton:Burnley Dyche has Burnley very well organised and competitive

We will have to be very smart how we play....they're very physical as you all know and their set pieces will put us under extreme pressure. Barnes is practically in Pickford's jersey every time they get a corner

We have to stop the supply to the front men and be quick and incisive on the break.

Let's hope Martin Atkinson isn't the ref. Tarkowski cleaned out Richarlison and nothing given. Two minutes later another one of them went through the back of Townsend. No yellow. When you consider what a tackle from behind did to Harvey Elliot yesterday, it is disgraceful refereeing. Benitez was quite rightly having a go at him.

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Post #535270  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:12 pm 
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And now 1:0 Burnley and they just about deserve it It'll be a battle Saturday...


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Post #535271  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:18 pm 
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It was a tough tackle....reminds me of Hackney Marshes circa 1968 and should have drawn a yellow.....but......Richarlison is a tosser and had got them riled up with a late challenge on Mee earlier ....this was afters from Tarkowski....my logic is faulty though....it shouldn't count who the recipient is....tosser or not its a bad tackle...

What we have to look forward to I guess

Oh now 1:1


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Post #535272  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:23 pm 
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Brilliant turn around from Everton. 3 super goals.

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Post #535273  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:25 pm 
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Never saw this coming 3:1 Everton Gray and Townsend who cost about as much as Pépé's shoelace doing the business for Everton. I do think Benitez is a top class coach....he'd have been good for us.


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Post #535274  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:27 pm 
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Better Arsenal at least try and make an attempt to do to Burnley at 3-1 this weekend, like Everton's quick succesion goals. :laughing7:

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Post #535275  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:34 pm 
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Zed wrote:
Better Arsenal at least try and make an attempt to do to Burnley at 3-1 this weekend, like Everton's quick succesion goals. :laughing7:

Townsend's goal was a screamer but the rest was about quick passing. Everton upped the tempo and cut them open

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Post #535276  Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:56 pm 
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dec wrote:
Zed wrote:
Better Arsenal at least try and make an attempt to do to Burnley at 3-1 this weekend, like Everton's quick succesion goals. :laughing7:

Townsend's goal was a screamer but the rest was about quick passing. Everton upped the tempo and cut them open

Townsend's goal was good. Passing was swift throughout in second half. Exciting stuff.

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Post #535277  Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:34 am 
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Yeah, I'm trolling...lol...I was >>>this close<<< to makkng it my avatar. :42laughter:


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Post #535278  Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:37 am 
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I'll be in LA late this year and will drive past 'the stadium Arsenal built' :58big-emoticons:

We are a joke because we have a joke of an owner. And the damage is for decades. Now I know what it feels like to be a Man Utd fan.

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Post #535279  Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:38 am 
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Okay, we've got a win under our belts. The only game that Arteta can get away with a draw right now is the NLD. He has to win this game.

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Post #535280  Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:34 am 
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https://dean-magazine.ghost.io/the-cold ... ssion=true

This is a long but good read. It is a Liverpool fans take on the toxic Twitter fan. Written about Liverpool but could apply to any club, especially a big club.


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