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Post #530881  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:18 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
DHD wrote:
Slightly daft and maybe naïve question, but I'll ask it anyway.

In modern football, what's the essential difference between the number 10 role and the number 8 role?

Depends on the coach and the set up.

generally accepted the number 8 has more defensive duties than the 10. The suggestion is Partey is best played as an 8

Traditionally I’ve always seen the number 4 as the defensive midfielder.


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Post #530882  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:26 am 
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DHD wrote:
Thanks Bern & TG. I see what you're both saying and I wouldn't disagree. Tricky one.

In terms of 8 or 10, how should we view Saka and Smith-Rowe?


Emile Smith Rowe is a 10 who can also play wide left if the coach wants to retain possession a bit more (maybe in a big game) . Ødegaard is clearly a 10 and likewise Maddison. The type of player we need to invest in this summer in my opinion

Saka is neither and looks best wide left or right i think.

Cazorla and Fàbregas we’re good enough to be played in either position. Actually cazorla was so good he could play anywhere apart from defence or striker I reckon


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Post #530883  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:29 am 
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DHD wrote:
Thanks Bern & TG. I see what you're both saying and I wouldn't disagree. Tricky one.

In terms of 8 or 10, how should we view Saka and Smith-Rowe?

Saka number 11 and Smith Rowe 7 maybe, as I see those as the wide midfielder numbers which is probably a decent description of them?

In sum, I’ve always seen the numbers as closest to these roles. 1 goalkeeper, 2 right back, 3 left back, 4 defensive midfielder, 5 strong in the air central defender, 6 ball playing central defender, 7 right midfield, 8 creative central midfield, 9 centre forward, 10 creative central forward, 11 left midfield.

EDIT: The numbers above have lost relevance to modern formations (for example, many teams don’t play with a traditional centre forward these days). Squad numbers have made them even less relevant as well. I wonder when the last time was that Arsenal’s starting eleven had the shirt numbers 1-11?


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Post #530884  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:39 am 
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It’s not really numerical anymore as squad numbers have chucked all that out the window but people refer to 8 and 10 as numbers still for some reason to determine the roles of the 2 more attacking midfielders. Just a form of terminology people use for some reason


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Post #530885  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:51 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Seems a reasonable fee. He never impressed at all for us really....
Agreed. Reported as being bought for £1.9m, so if this sale happens a £5m profit does not seem too shabby.

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Post #530886  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:53 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
It’s not really numerical anymore as squad numbers have chucked all that out the window but people refer to 8 and 10 as numbers still for some reason to determine the roles of the 2 more attacking midfielders. Just a form of terminology people use for some reason


I think I'd agree with this TG, and with your last 'Edit' Bern. The numbers and their designations haven't made a great deal of sense to me for a while.


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Post #530887  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:53 am 
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DHD wrote:
Slightly daft and maybe naïve question, but I'll ask it anyway.

In modern football, what's the essential difference between the number 10 role and the number 8 role?
2?

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Post #530888  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:56 am 
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Historically some of the time at Arsenal some of the more defensive midfielders wore 8 a lot. Paul Davis (a favourite of mine) and Kevin Richardson for example.

Ian Wright certainly broke that and made the number his own.


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Post #530889  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:57 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:
Slightly daft and maybe naïve question, but I'll ask it anyway.

In modern football, what's the essential difference between the number 10 role and the number 8 role?
2?

A right back?


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Post #530890  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:50 pm 
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Amid my moaning on the pitiful transfer fees we receive, or supposedly receive the acid test will be if Willock and AMN are sold.
You could make a case for a lot of our players who might be sold that we aren't in a strong negotiating position, be it contract length, age, injuries, attitude or ability of the player - each of the likes of Xhaka, Lacazette, Nketiah, Elneny, Kolasinac, Mavropanos and even Bellerin have circumstances where it might be difficult for us to get top whack for them. But Willock and AMN we do not have to sell, as young home grown players on the up they are a rare commodity and will have plenty of suiters. We must not sell either on the cheap if they do depart.


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Post #530891  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:56 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
DHD wrote:
Slightly daft and maybe naïve question, but I'll ask it anyway.

In modern football, what's the essential difference between the number 10 role and the number 8 role?

I’ve always seen the number 10 role as the deep creative central forward role. A sort of Cantona or Bergkamp player. I’ve always seen the number 8 as the creative central midfielder role. A sort of Cazorla or Fabregas type of player, even if they don’t have the 8 shirt.

Agree. It is a question of formation I think
In a 4-2-3-1 you have a definite 10 behind the striker. If that player goes deeper and therefore becomes an 8 the formation changes to 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1
Ina classic 4-4-2 you could have an 8 and a 10, with the 10 slightly off the main centre forward but not many teams play like that nowadays and ironically those that do tend to be scrappy teams who wouldn't field an 8 or a 10 - they tend to go with 2 No.4's in central midfield and 2 No. 9's up front. Think of Burnley and you'll get my thinking.

Taking it further someone like Pep plays with 2 No.8s (De Bruyne and Silva for a long time). With a single holding midfielder this formation is 4-1-2-2-1 with 2 wide men and 2 8's behind. I think this is the sort of thing Arteta would like to implement at Arsenal it is a kind of very attacking 4-3-3


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Post #530892  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:59 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
In sum, I’ve always seen the numbers as closest to these roles. 1 goalkeeper, 2 right back, 3 left back, 4 defensive midfielder, 5 strong in the air central defender, 6 ball playing central defender, 7 right midfield, 8 creative central midfield, 9 centre forward, 10 creative central forward, 11 left midfield.

This is exactly how I see shirt numbers on the classic english 4-4-2. I think other countries have this a bit different. Some have the 6 as a holding midfielder, and I'm sure I've seen some national teams have 3 as a CB - whether that came from player preference or not I don't know.
The one I recall was Brazil when Roberto Carlos at left back wore 6 and Lucio the CB used to wear 3.


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Post #530893  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:19 pm 
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I played no 4 for my primary school team.

That was right half in a 2-3-5 formation. And we played in heavy mens’ rugby shirts. And used dubbin on our boots.

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Post #530894  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:42 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
I played no 4 for my primary school team.

That was right half in a 2-3-5 formation. And we played in heavy mens’ rugby shirts. And used dubbin on our boots.

Presumably you used jumpers for goalposts.


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Post #530895  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:52 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
I played no 4 for my primary school team.

That was right half in a 2-3-5 formation. And we played in heavy mens’ rugby shirts. And used dubbin on our boots.

Presumably you used jumpers for goalposts.

Proper goalposts. No nets though.

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Post #530896  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:58 pm 
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https://twitter.com/adamvoge/status/1405880764953206787

This guy on twitter does some great chart and stats analysis of players.
This is a selection of central midfielders ranked on their attacking and ball retention. He's pushing Auoar again, if he's available for less than last year that is a good example of extracting value from this market


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Post #530897  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:01 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
I played no 4 for my primary school team.

That was right half in a 2-3-5 formation. And we played in heavy mens’ rugby shirts. And used dubbin on our boots.

At school we had school issue rugby shirts that were reversible. plain on one side and hoops on the other. We'd spend half the lesson doing various rugby drills then half the lesson playing a match where half the class had to reverse their tops which were now nice and muddy. The feeling of putting the muddy side against your skin was not a nice one


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Post #530898  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:07 pm 
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Rich wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
I played no 4 for my primary school team.

That was right half in a 2-3-5 formation. And we played in heavy mens’ rugby shirts. And used dubbin on our boots.

At school we had school issue rugby shirts that were reversible. plain on one side and hoops on the other. We'd spend half the lesson doing various rugby drills then half the lesson playing a match where half the class had to reverse their tops which were now nice and muddy. The feeling of putting the muddy side against your skin was not a nice one

Yuk. I can imagine that feeling still living with you.

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Post #530899  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:20 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
Likely nonsense writing. If true, hope Arsenal don't make the dumb decision to agree on this.

Emile Smith Rowe home grown, and has established himself as a trusted first-teamer. Much more driven player than almost the entire squad (something we need in abundance).

Ødegaard, I'm still not convinced he can make it happen for us. Pulls away from tackles too quickly. Not anywhere close to Özil, Cesc or Carzola level to warrant this swap.

I agree, it’s probably nonsense journalism and I wouldn’t want to lose Smith Rowe for Ødegaard either. But can’t you find ways to say that without slagging Ødegaard off? Ødegaard is an elite talent and potentially a truly elite player. I suspect that’s why Real Madrid, in my view the world’s biggest club, not only bought him but probably want to keep him. I bet he ends up achieving more in the game than Cazorla, sadly as I don’t see it being with Arsenal.


Sorry, can't help it. It wasn't over-the-top slagging. Just don't like the way he plays. I prefer him to be tougher, like Cesc. Agree, he could potentially be a magician in the middle of the park. But I've not seen enough to be convinced he is able to bring up his game to match the opposition when needed. Well, I've been wrong before (don't we all?), and if he stays with us, hope he proves me wrong.

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Post #530900  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:21 pm 
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DHD wrote:
Slightly daft and maybe naïve question, but I'll ask it anyway.

In modern football, what's the essential difference between the number 10 role and the number 8 role?


The number 9 role :1laughter:

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Post #530901  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:51 pm 
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Czech to beat Croatia

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Post #530902  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:59 pm 
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Not certain if anyone knows the Brentford match is now scheduled for Friday, Aug 13 at 8 pm. Moved for live TV coverage.

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Post #530903  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:04 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Spurs hunt for a new manager goes on
Nagelsmann, Rodgers, Flick, Ten Hag, Pochettino, Conte, Fonseca, Gattuso.....on to the next one. Scott Parker?

Avram Grant... :14laughter:

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Post #530904  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:10 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
gooner7 wrote:
Likely nonsense writing. If true, hope Arsenal don't make the dumb decision to agree on this.

Emile Smith Rowe home grown, and has established himself as a trusted first-teamer. Much more driven player than almost the entire squad (something we need in abundance).

Ødegaard, I'm still not convinced he can make it happen for us. Pulls away from tackles too quickly. Not anywhere close to Özil, Cesc or Carzola level to warrant this swap.

I agree, it’s probably nonsense journalism and I wouldn’t want to lose Smith Rowe for Ødegaard either. But can’t you find ways to say that without slagging Ødegaard off? Ødegaard is an elite talent and potentially a truly elite player. I suspect that’s why Real Madrid, in my view the world’s biggest club, not only bought him but probably want to keep him. I bet he ends up achieving more in the game than Cazorla, sadly as I don’t see it being with Arsenal.

Bernard, somehow or other I just can't see Arteta fulfilling or bringing out Ødegaard's potential with us. He may die on the vine. Ancelotti favours him, so better he stays at RM.

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Post #530905  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:17 pm 
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https://www.football.london/arsenal-fc/ ... g-20853048
Some positive news about Tierney and a potential new long term contract.

Hard not to like everything about Tierney, the only issue is that injury record. We need to have him playing 30+ prem games a season every season


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Post #530906  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:20 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
Rich wrote:
At school we had school issue rugby shirts that were reversible. plain on one side and hoops on the other. We'd spend half the lesson doing various rugby drills then half the lesson playing a match where half the class had to reverse their tops which were now nice and muddy. The feeling of putting the muddy side against your skin was not a nice one

Yuk. I can imagine that feeling still living with you.

Indeed. But strangely all good memories because I loved PE at school, any sport going.
When it came to picking the teams for the match the teacher used to line us up in a long line and go down the line 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 - all the 1's forma team vs all the 2's. We quickly cottoned on and used to grab a kid who was useless at sport and stick him between me and my mate - canny teacher was one step ahead though......1,2,1,1,2,2....haha


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Post #530907  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:49 pm 
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Rich wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
I played no 4 for my primary school team.

That was right half in a 2-3-5 formation. And we played in heavy mens’ rugby shirts. And used dubbin on our boots.

At school we had school issue rugby shirts that were reversible. plain on one side and hoops on the other. We'd spend half the lesson doing various rugby drills then half the lesson playing a match where half the class had to reverse their tops which were now nice and muddy. The feeling of putting the muddy side against your skin was not a nice one


First 'organised' (I use that word loosely) game of football I played, the referee was a nun.


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Post #530908  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:50 pm 
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Zed wrote:
Not certain if anyone knows the Brentford match is now scheduled for Friday, Aug 13 at 8 pm. Moved for live TV coverage.


Friday 13th

What could possibly go wrong?


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Post #530909  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:59 pm 
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Zed wrote:
Not certain if anyone knows the Brentford match is now scheduled for Friday, Aug 13 at 8 pm. Moved for live TV coverage.

That didn’t take long did it? In fact all of our first three league fixtures have changed.

And there is the second round of the Carabao Cup to look forward to.

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Post #530910  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:14 pm 
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Stones header hits the upright.

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Post #530911  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:42 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
Zed wrote:
Not certain if anyone knows the Brentford match is now scheduled for Friday, Aug 13 at 8 pm. Moved for live TV coverage.

That didn’t take long did it? In fact all of our first three league fixtures have changed.

And there is the second round of the Carabao Cup to look forward to.

At least we’re still getting shown on telly.


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Post #530912  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:30 pm 
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There is that.

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Post #530913  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:35 pm 
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What a surprisingly dull low quality game so far.

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Post #530914  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:44 pm 
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DHD wrote:
Zed wrote:
Not certain if anyone knows the Brentford match is now scheduled for Friday, Aug 13 at 8 pm. Moved for live TV coverage.


Friday 13th

What could possibly go wrong?

Maybe not much.

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Post #530915  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:45 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
That didn’t take long did it? In fact all of our first three league fixtures have changed.

And there is the second round of the Carabao Cup to look forward to.

At least we’re still getting shown on telly.


Better than nothing.

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Post #530916  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:52 pm 
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Well that’s 2 hours of my life I won’t get back.


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Post #530917  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:57 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
What a surprisingly dull low quality game so far.

Watched a fair bit of the second half (very little of the first) but from what I did see, I thought Scotland deserved their point. Delighted for them, as at least they still have a chance of qualifying.


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Post #530918  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:10 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
What a surprisingly dull low quality game so far.

Watched a fair bit of the second half (very little of the first) but from what I did see, I thought Scotland deserved their point. Delighted for them, as at least they still have a chance of qualifying.

Scotland deserve a lot of credit for that performance and it wouldn't have flattered them if they'd nicked a winner. England will have to up their game significantly to have any chance of going deep into the tournament. I agree with Graham Souness when he said that you need to replace either Rice or Phillips in the England midfield with someone more creative.


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Post #530919  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:13 pm 
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England disappointing it has to be said. Tierney played well. What surprised me was Scotland's domination in midfield.

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Post #530920  Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:13 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
What a surprisingly dull low quality game so far.

Watched a fair bit of the second half (very little of the first) but from what I did see, I thought Scotland deserved their point. Delighted for them, as at least they still have a chance of qualifying.

Scotland thoroughly deserved their point. Never in much danger really. Hardly any efforts on target by either side all game.

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