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Post #529241  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:48 pm 
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john1 wrote:
Well, well, well.


Sorry; Will, Will, Will.

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Post #529242  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:50 pm 
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3 points but not exactly inspiring stuff.


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Post #529243  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:50 pm 
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Willian redeems his entire season by relegating Sam Allardyce. Great signing.


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Post #529244  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:50 pm 
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The greatest satisfaction from this game is being the team that relegated Fat Sam. The man who prides himself on never having been relegated, he’s been sacked by relegated teams before they actually got relegated. We can rank this one alongside relegating Troy Deeney on the last day of last year.


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Post #529245  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:52 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
Willian redeems his entire season by relegating Sam Allardyce. Great signing.

:58big-emoticons:


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Post #529246  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:53 pm 
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and we finally win a home game, at last.
:22encouragement: :22encouragement:


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Post #529247  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:06 pm 
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Rich wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Ceballos off. Crap performance and still couldn’t score in a brothel

Shows the state of the team that we started with a central midfield of a guy who isn’t our player and shouldn’t be our player next year, and a guy we decided (rightly) 2 years ago wasn’t good enough for us and somehow we find him back with us simply as a warm body to fill a gap in the squad.
.


Until we get better midfielders I genuinely don’t think we will improve one iota.

Xhaka, El Nenny are just unable to play on the half turn, ceballos can but is useless at everything else.

We need a no8 & no10 and a player who can sit on the bench and cover both positions adequately in case of an injury.

We are unable to increase the tempo of our play because our distribution from midfield is shocking. It’s not a deliberate tactic, no *%^@** would ask a team to play like that.


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Post #529248  Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:23 pm 
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Soumare’s transfer to Leicester is on, under £30m. Adding him to Ndidi and Tielemans is a hugely strong central midfield absolutely primed for the English league. Physical and pace with technique and ability to play and pass at high tempo.
That trip is a better central midfield than Man U’s as well I’d say. Any one of those 3 would start for us.

We need 2 central midfielders in the summer. Some physicality who can travel with the ball and we somehow need to up the technical ability in the side to help us control games. A fabregas/Cazorla type player. In terms of just basic skill with a football (first touch, control, passing etc) we don’t have anyone remotely close to that level, and we’ve actually got too many players whose basic technique is actually quite lacking.


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Post #529249  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:55 am 
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Decided to give the game a miss. Sounds like a bore of a match, bar the goals.

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Post #529250  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:09 am 
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Arteta’s interviews are just self serving nonsense that are applauded by the ‘keep Arteta’ crowd. He is like a dodgy fraudster. It is everyone else’s fault. Strangely Emery was one penalty away from a CL position. But the team since Arteta has taken over has gone further down the table despite his buys and decisions. The moment he picked Willian for this game said it all. Maybe after 16 months someone can tell me what formation he wants to play, because it is pointless buying any players if we don’t know how they fit in.

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Post #529251  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:04 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Arteta’s interviews are just self serving nonsense that are applauded by the ‘keep Arteta’ crowd. He is like a dodgy fraudster. It is everyone else’s fault. Strangely Emery was one penalty away from a CL position. But the team since Arteta has taken over has gone further down the table despite his buys and decisions. The moment he picked Willian for this game said it all. Maybe after 16 months someone can tell me what formation he wants to play, because it is pointless buying any players if we don’t know how they fit in.


Disappointed we won again clearly. No hand gel for you last night. At the end of the day Willian scored why lose the plot because he was picked it made sense to give others a rest and he scored.

Oh and the stuff about transfers ? Arteta wasn’t even responsible for transfers until last summer as he was only head coach not manager and that changed in September at which point Willian was complete already and Partey was well inflight. Blaming him for our recruitment is a little unfair.

The formation ? Clearly you don’t actually watch our games because anyone can see he plays a fluid 4-2-1-3 that changes shape in possession. Occasionally a 3-4-3

You don’t know or seem to understand anything about Arsenal and don’t get any enjoyment from us. You need a new hobby, can I suggest bowls


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Post #529252  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:15 am 
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I have a friend from London, supports a non London club. Met him in the states. He said the only London fans who are more entitled and spoilt than Arsenal fans are Chelsea fans. And he said Chelsea fans beat us out because of the money and bought trophies they got since 2004.

Not talking to anyone specific on here, just a friend's observation.

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Post #529253  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:59 am 
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Rich wrote:
Soumare’s transfer to Leicester is on, under £30m. Adding him to Ndidi and Tielemans is a hugely strong central midfield absolutely primed for the English league. Physical and pace with technique and ability to play and pass at high tempo.
That trip is a better central midfield than Man U’s as well I’d say. Any one of those 3 would start for us.

We need 2 central midfielders in the summer. Some physicality who can travel with the ball and we somehow need to up the technical ability in the side to help us control games. A fabregas/Cazorla type player. In terms of just basic skill with a football (first touch, control, passing etc) we don’t have anyone remotely close to that level, and we’ve actually got too many players whose basic technique is actually quite lacking.


Hi Rich,

Which begs the question as to why we are not all over the Soumare deal. Perfect age, ability, physicality, potential and price for a club, like us, who cannot dine at the top table anymore.


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Post #529254  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:04 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
Arteta’s interviews are just self serving nonsense that are applauded by the ‘keep Arteta’ crowd. He is like a dodgy fraudster. It is everyone else’s fault. Strangely Emery was one penalty away from a CL position. But the team since Arteta has taken over has gone further down the table despite his buys and decisions. The moment he picked Willian for this game said it all. Maybe after 16 months someone can tell me what formation he wants to play, because it is pointless buying any players if we don’t know how they fit in.


Disappointed we won again clearly. No hand gel for you last night. At the end of the day Willian scored why lose the plot because he was picked it made sense to give others a rest and he scored.

Oh and the stuff about transfers ? Arteta wasn’t even responsible for transfers until last summer as he was only head coach not manager and that changed in September at which point Willian was complete already and Partey was well inflight. Blaming him for our recruitment is a little unfair.

The formation ? Clearly you don’t actually watch our games because anyone can see he plays a fluid 4-2-1-3 that changes shape in possession. Occasionally a 3-4-3

You don’t know or seem to understand anything about Arsenal and don’t get any enjoyment from us. You need a new hobby, can I suggest bowls

I was waiting for a reply from Mr Mediocrity and here he is. I know that all the Arteta keepers are starting to say he was not responsible for transfers but he was in the media saying we must get Willian so don’t start with blame shifting. He wouldn’t have played him if he didn’t want him. As for the formation you are having a laugh. It was just a couple of months ago we were pumping crossed into the box, then we played false 9’s, of course most of the season Aubameyang was a left winger and the current sorry performances have 4 up front and no midfield. The only one with his hand in it is you with a photo of Arteta. I want our club to succeed but you obviously are happy with the default setting of mediocrity. I suggest you start supporting a club like Spurs, you are well suited.

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Post #529255  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:12 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

Disappointed we won again clearly. No hand gel for you last night. At the end of the day Willian scored why lose the plot because he was picked it made sense to give others a rest and he scored.

Oh and the stuff about transfers ? Arteta wasn’t even responsible for transfers until last summer as he was only head coach not manager and that changed in September at which point Willian was complete already and Partey was well inflight. Blaming him for our recruitment is a little unfair.

The formation ? Clearly you don’t actually watch our games because anyone can see he plays a fluid 4-2-1-3 that changes shape in possession. Occasionally a 3-4-3

You don’t know or seem to understand anything about Arsenal and don’t get any enjoyment from us. You need a new hobby, can I suggest bowls

I was waiting for a reply from Mr Mediocrity and here he is. I know that all the Arteta keepers are starting to say he was not responsible for transfers but he was in the media saying we must get Willian so don’t start with blame shifting. He wouldn’t have played him if he didn’t want him. As for the formation you are having a laugh. It was just a couple of months ago we were pumping crossed into the box, then we played false 9’s, of course most of the season Aubameyang was a left winger and the current sorry performances have 4 up front and no midfield. The only one with his hand in it is you with a photo of Arteta. I want our club to succeed but you obviously are happy with the default setting of mediocrity. I suggest you start supporting a club like Spurs, you are well suited.


The false 9 was only played through injury and on 2 occasions. The rest as I said. 2 pivots, 1 central and wingers and striker.

As for the rest of the nonsense all I’ll say is I’ve followed the boys all over Europe and season ticket holder and can draw on my experience of what I’ve seen of following arsenal rather than being an internet weirdo trying to force their opinions on others to feel relevant.

It’s perfectly logical to think that Arteta has done some things badly but has also to deal with some of the most mitigating circumstances ever for any manager.


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Post #529256  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:18 am 
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When Martinelli first burst onto the scene, scoring wondergoals etc, I thought we might have unearthed our own potential superstar, as unlikely as that might have seemed given his £6m price tag. I so much wanted him to be that kind of player.

However, since his return from injury (and even a little bit before that to be honest) I have begun to think that may have been a little bit of wishful thinking. He has an amazing work ethic and infectious enthusiasm but I think he's probably not going to reach the stratospheric levels we all hoped for. I have been wanting him to be given more chances all season just hoping that I was wrong to harbour those niggling doubts and that he would reignite my early belief that he could become a very special player.

The Newcastle game apart he has largely been pretty average and yesterday he looked totally out of his depth at CF. Hopefully, that may have been partly down to a lack of the right kind of service but Arteta had little choice but to withdraw him as he was really quite poor. I am really sad to be saying this because I love his attitude and honestly hoped we had a potential worldbeater on our hands. My gut feel, though, is that he may well have a very good career at Arsenal but perhaps not the stellar career we all hoped he might.

I hope I'm wrong, he's still young and plenty of players don't really see their careers take off until their early 20s so fingers crossed that this season is just a blip.


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Post #529257  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:24 am 
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socrates wrote:
When Martinelli first burst onto the scene, scoring wondergoals etc, I thought we might have unearthed our own potential superstar, as unlikely as that might have seemed given his £6m price tag. I so much wanted him to be that kind of player.

However, since his return from injury (and even a little bit before that to be honest) I have begun to think that may have been a little bit of wishful thinking. He has an amazing work ethic and infectious enthusiasm but I think he's probably not going to reach the stratospheric levels we all hoped for. I have been wanting him to be given more chances all season just hoping that I was wrong to harbour those niggling doubts and that he would reignite my early belief that he could become a very special player.

The Newcastle game apart he has largely been pretty average and yesterday he looked totally out of his depth at CF. Hopefully, that may have been partly down to a lack of the right kind of service but Arteta had little choice but to withdraw him as he was really quite poor. I am really sad to be saying this because I love his attitude and honestly hoped we had a potential worldbeater on our hands. My gut feel, though, is that he may well have a very good career at Arsenal but perhaps not the stellar career we all hoped he might.

I hope I'm wrong, he's still young and plenty of players don't really see their careers take off until their early 20s so fingers crossed that this season is just a blip.


I think he will be a decent player but he’s a bit of a dog chasing cars if you know what I mean and has to try and play the game in his head a bit more. His injury seems to have slowed him down a bit.

Also we have massive over expectation from our fans now on him as they wished to believe the solution to our problems was sat on our bench rather than in our 11 than accept the reality of our predicament that there is no magic solution here pre packaged we were ignoring.


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Post #529258  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:46 am 
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Watching Ceballos and Elneny look like they were running through treacle as they tried to catch Pereira as he ran through to score was painful viewing. Neither should be at the club next year.

For all our lack of decent attacking output this year I do feel if we crafted a proper central midfield and a pair of high quality, technically adept full backs we'd be so much better. It would allow us to keep the ball better, be more on the front foot and move our play 20 yards up the pitch..

For the top teams full-back is such an important position in the game. Their defensive work is mainly about recovery pace and defending 1v1, but going forward they need to have the technical ability, passing range and spatial awareness of a central midfielder and also be able to play like an old fashioned winger.

This is what Trent and Robertson do for Liverpool - even if their form has dipped this year, and the best in the league this season has been Walker and Cancelo at City


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Post #529259  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:52 am 
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socrates wrote:
Rich wrote:
Soumare’s transfer to Leicester is on, under £30m. Adding him to Ndidi and Tielemans is a hugely strong central midfield absolutely primed for the English league. Physical and pace with technique and ability to play and pass at high tempo.
That trip is a better central midfield than Man U’s as well I’d say. Any one of those 3 would start for us.

We need 2 central midfielders in the summer. Some physicality who can travel with the ball and we somehow need to up the technical ability in the side to help us control games. A fabregas/Cazorla type player. In terms of just basic skill with a football (first touch, control, passing etc) we don’t have anyone remotely close to that level, and we’ve actually got too many players whose basic technique is actually quite lacking.


Hi Rich,

Which begs the question as to why we are not all over the Soumare deal. Perfect age, ability, physicality, potential and price for a club, like us, who cannot dine at the top table anymore.

I always have the feeling with Arsenal transfers, no matter who is in charge that we identify the player through lots of hard work and scouting etc and then we either haggle too hard over price or we worry about 1 perceived weakness and wait too long and someone else just bites the bullet and goes for it. I bet Arsenal think Soumare is too raw to play central midfield in the prem - but isn't that exactly what we need right now. Players considered too raw can be coached to iron out those rough edges, and at 22 there will be rough edges, but if you coach them well then you have a bargain. We can't afford finished product.


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Post #529260  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:55 am 
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Rich wrote:
Watching Ceballos and Elneny look like they were running through treacle as they tried to catch Pereira as he ran through to score was painful viewing. Neither should be at the club next year.





2 midfielders who clearly should be playing for championship sides not Arsenal.

Damn you Arteta you should be getting more out these world beaters !,,,,


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Post #529261  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:22 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Rich wrote:
Watching Ceballos and Elneny look like they were running through treacle as they tried to catch Pereira as he ran through to score was painful viewing. Neither should be at the club next year.





2 midfielders who clearly should be playing for championship sides not Arsenal.

Damn you Arteta you should be getting more out these world beaters !,,,,


To be fair, I have seen very view things from Arteta that lead me to believe he will be a worldbeater of a manager either.

His team selections and tactics have been very questionable all season, his intra-game management shaky and his substitutions really poor. Not to mention some of his man management which has raised a few eyebrows.

Poor squad or not he has not covered himself in glory this season and he appears to be throwing his players under the bus now to deflect attention away from his mismanagement.


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Post #529262  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:31 am 
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How well has Tuchel done at Chelsea. I know he's got a huge squad and he turned up with lots of very good players simply out of form, but he has taken them from 9th to almost certainly top 3, in to the FA Cup final and the champions league final. He's switched the formation to a back 3 and has reinvigorated players who were sleepwalking under lampard.


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Post #529263  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:36 am 
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socrates wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

2 midfielders who clearly should be playing for championship sides not Arsenal.

Damn you Arteta you should be getting more out these world beaters !,,,,



It
To be fair, I have seen very view things from Arteta that lead me to believe he will be a worldbeater of a manager either.

His team selections and tactics have been very questionable all season, his intra-game management shaky and his substitutions really poor. Not to mention some of his man management which has raised a few eyebrows.

Poor squad or not he has not covered himself in glory this season and he appears to be throwing his players under the bus now to deflect attention away from his mismanagement.


Let’s appoint Pépé Guardiola and give him midfielders who aren’t good enough to play for Norwich. That’ll fix it !


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Post #529264  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 8:41 am 
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Rich wrote:
How well has Tuchel done at Chelsea. I know he's got a huge squad and he turned up with lots of very good players simply out of form, but he has taken them from 9th to almost certainly top 3, in to the FA Cup final and the champions league final. He's switched the formation to a back 3 and has reinvigorated players who were sleepwalking under lampard.

Bet you he’s sacked within 2 years,

It’s one thing getting a tune out of underperforming 80 million pound midfielders but not having 80 million pound midfielders is quite a different problem.


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Post #529265  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:22 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Rich wrote:
How well has Tuchel done at Chelsea. I know he's got a huge squad and he turned up with lots of very good players simply out of form, but he has taken them from 9th to almost certainly top 3, in to the FA Cup final and the champions league final. He's switched the formation to a back 3 and has reinvigorated players who were sleepwalking under lampard.

Bet you he’s sacked within 2 years,

It’s one thing getting a tune out of underperforming 80 million pound midfielders but not having 80 million pound midfielders is quite a different problem.

He may well be, but that hire them, fire them tactic hasn't exactly harmed Chelsea in the last 15 years since Roman came in.
After the initial cash injection for the first half of Roman's time Chelsea have been pretty much self sustainable (allowing for the huge interest free loan from Roman that is effectively debt). Chelsea's model of hoarding players, getting big loan fees and selling for big profit has them self sustainable.

Arsenal do have a forward line of players we bought for £45m, £55m and £70m. For that kind of outlay we should expect more goals and all round attacking play than we have had.
Our net spend over the last 3-4 years in greater than Chelsea's. When we moan about not being able to afford more £50m players we need to look back to losing the likes of Sanchez, Ramsey, Wilshere, Welbeck etc for £0, and giving Özil £350k a week. If we'd been much better at managing what we already have/had we'd have far more scope to improve our squad as it stands now and would almost certainly not be in the downward spiral we are in


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Post #529266  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:50 am 
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Rich wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Bet you he’s sacked within 2 years,

It’s one thing getting a tune out of underperforming 80 million pound midfielders but not having 80 million pound midfielders is quite a different problem.

He may well be, but that hire them, fire them tactic hasn't exactly harmed Chelsea in the last 15 years since Roman came in.
After the initial cash injection for the first half of Roman's time Chelsea have been pretty much self sustainable (allowing for the huge interest free loan from Roman that is effectively debt). Chelsea's model of hoarding players, getting big loan fees and selling for big profit has them self sustainable.

Arsenal do have a forward line of players we bought for £45m, £55m and £70m. For that kind of outlay we should expect more goals and all round attacking play than we have had.
Our net spend over the last 3-4 years in greater than Chelsea's. When we moan about not being able to afford more £50m players we need to look back to losing the likes of Sanchez, Ramsey, Wilshere, Welbeck etc for £0, and giving Özil £350k a week. If we'd been much better at managing what we already have/had we'd have far more scope to improve our squad as it stands now and would almost certainly not be in the downward spiral we are in


Exactly.

We are hardly a squad of complete cloggers with no money spent on them.

I'd say what Arteta has done this season is a little below what you might reasonably expect, infact closer to the worse case scenario of underperformances than a promising year.


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Post #529267  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:58 am 
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socrates wrote:
Rich wrote:
He may well be, but that hire them, fire them tactic hasn't exactly harmed Chelsea in the last 15 years since Roman came in.
After the initial cash injection for the first half of Roman's time Chelsea have been pretty much self sustainable (allowing for the huge interest free loan from Roman that is effectively debt). Chelsea's model of hoarding players, getting big loan fees and selling for big profit has them self sustainable.

Arsenal do have a forward line of players we bought for £45m, £55m and £70m. For that kind of outlay we should expect more goals and all round attacking play than we have had.
Our net spend over the last 3-4 years in greater than Chelsea's. When we moan about not being able to afford more £50m players we need to look back to losing the likes of Sanchez, Ramsey, Wilshere, Welbeck etc for £0, and giving Özil £350k a week. If we'd been much better at managing what we already have/had we'd have far more scope to improve our squad as it stands now and would almost certainly not be in the downward spiral we are in


Exactly.

We are hardly a squad of complete cloggers with no money spent on them.



Midfield 3 yesterday, 1 loaner spent nothing, another a player signed from Basel for 10 million Besiktas thought wasn’t good enough for them and a youngster on loan at Huddersfield last year chucked head first into the first team. So no we pretty much spent nothing on that midfield. The most crucial part of the pitch.

Let’s not even mention the left wing 32 year old free transfer.


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Post #529268  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 10:47 am 
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Related to a comment a few days ago about Arsenals home form...

"Arsenal have lost seven home Premier League games in 2020-21 – they last lost more home league matches in a single campaign in 1929-30 (nine), a season in which the Gunners finished 14th in the table"

How many home games do we have left? :1laughter:


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Post #529269  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 10:58 am 
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socrates wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
2 midfielders who clearly should be playing for championship sides not Arsenal.


To be fair, I have seen very view things from Arteta that lead me to believe he will be a worldbeater of a manager either.

His team selections and tactics have been very questionable all season, his intra-game management shaky and his substitutions really poor. Not to mention some of his man management which has raised a few eyebrows.

Poor squad or not he has not covered himself in glory this season and he appears to be throwing his players under the bus now to deflect attention away from his mismanagement.

If Ceballos is no better than a Championship player, then why in his two seasons at Real Madrid before joining Arsenal on loan, did they select him to play 56 competitive first team games? Furthermore if he really is Championship standard, how has he won 11 full caps for the Spanish national team? We’re not talking of the Faroe Islands or San Marino here. We’re talking Spain. I’m not saying Ceballos is great and I expect Real to move him on. But you don’t play 56 games for arguably the world’s biggest club in two seasons if you’re not better than Championship level.

To be honest, what has happened to Ceballos this season is indicative of something that worries me as much as the different points you raise socrates. It’s something I discussed with Rich quite recently. Players appear to get worse at Arsenal, and dare I say under Arteta? When he was first appointed I was impressed with the way players were improving. Xhaka and Mustafi were two obvious examples, and Xhaka has remained so.

But after a first season on loan by Ceballos that was good enough (he made an important contribution to Arsenal’s FA Cup win last season) to make Arteta decide to give him another year on loan, look what’s happened to him this season? Look what’s happened at Arsenal to the outstanding player Willian was at Chelsea? Look what’s happened to the outstanding prospect Ødegaard was when he joined us? Look what’s happened to Bellerin this season? Similar questions can arguably be asked about Aubameyang and Lacazette this season.

Is it outlandish to suggest they’ve all become worse players under Arteta? With any or all of them there could feasibly be other explanations. However, if their decline has nothing whatsoever to do with Arteta, then it looks to me as though the long arm of coincidence is continuing to grow appreciably.


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Post #529270  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 11:20 am 
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Bernard wrote:
If Ceballos is no better than a Championship player, then why in his two seasons at Real Madrid before joining Arsenal on loan, did they select him to play 56 competitive first team games? Furthermore if he really is Championship standard, how has he won 11 full caps for the Spanish national team? We’re not talking of the Faroe Islands or San Marino here. We’re talking Spain. I’m not saying Ceballos is great and I expect Real to move him on. But you don’t play 56 games for arguably the world’s biggest club in two seasons if you’re not better than Championship level.

To be honest, what has happened to Ceballos this season is indicative of something that worries me as much as the different points you raise socrates. It’s something I discussed with Rich quite recently. Players appear to get worse at Arsenal, and dare I say under Arteta? When he was first appointed I was impressed with the way players were improving. Xhaka and Mustafi were two obvious examples, and Xhaka has remained so.

But after a first season on loan by Ceballos that was good enough (he made an important contribution to Arsenal’s FA Cup win last season) to make Arteta decide to give him another year on loan, look what’s happened to him this season? Look what’s happened at Arsenal to the outstanding player Willian was at Chelsea? Look what’s happened to the outstanding prospect Ødegaard was when he joined us? Look what’s happened to Bellerin this season? Similar questions can arguably be asked about Aubameyang and Lacazette this season.

Is it outlandish to suggest they’ve all become worse players under Arteta? With any or all of them there could feasibly be other explanations. However, if their decline has nothing whatsoever to do with Arteta, then it looks to me as though the long arm of coincidence is continuing to grow appreciably.

I think it is probably true that a certain amount of players have regressed under Arteta and a certain amount of improved, how much you place either category at the door of the manager or the player themselves is a worthy debate but a difficult one to resolve until that player moves clubs and plays under a new manager.
Obvious player improvements are Saka and Smith Rowe - how much is that Arteta or down to 19 years olds being more obvious in their natural improvement as they mature?
I think Elneny has improved this season - although the bar is low
Xhaka has improved under Arteta a small bit and maintained that level, and dare I say were it not for his reputation would be considered one of our most consistent performers this season.
Lacazette has improved this season but still isn't at the reputation level he came with when he first signed.
I also think Mari has improved in the sense that hes maybe convinced a few people that he can be a 3rd choice CB for us.
Pépé maybe with some small improvements - particularly post the Leeds red card
Players who have got worse this season under Arteta: Aubameyang, Partey, Leno, Ceballos, Willian, Bellerin (need to factor in the injury)

The rest are more difficult to judge because they've either stayed at a similar level or have lost time to injury or need time to recover properly from a previous long injury.


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Post #529271  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 11:31 am 
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My plan to make Arsenal competitive and relevant again would be to take the model of Dortmund and Leipzig and even Ajax but become the top of that tier of teams doing that. It would require a huge dose or reality and humility on Arsenal's part that decide that there will be times that we need to sell our best player, but that is football. There is maybe only 4-5 clubs in the world who can resist selling a player. Everyone else needs to use it as an opportunity to gain maximum value and re-invest to make the group stronger.

A lot of the most talented young players in the world decide to go to the likes of Dortmund ahead of the likes of Real, Barca, Man U because they know they will be given game time, be allowed to develop and be allowed to leave when the time is right.
Dortmund have Sancho (£7m), Bellingham (£25m) and Haaland (£20m) and they will sell all 3 of those within the next 3 years or so would be my bet. Together they could easily be sold for £250m. None of those 3 players were a secret, I know Arsenal were massively in for both Sancho and Bellingham but they chose Dortmund because of what they offer.

Back to the old, 'we don't buy superstars, we make them' model. Either through the academy or through astute signings of highly rated young players on good transfer fees - and sometimes that will mean paying £25m+ for a highly rated 21 year old, but I'd rather do that than commit that sort of money plus treble the wages on a 29 year old.
If you wanted to go full manifesto we should be looking at players with a max transfer value of £30m and a maximum wage of £75-100k per week and really stick to the self imposed rule of making sure players are either sold or sign a new deal when they're 2 years away from a bosman.


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Post #529272  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 11:32 am 
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Rich wrote:
Bernard wrote:
If Ceballos is no better than a Championship player, then why in his two seasons at Real Madrid before joining Arsenal on loan, did they select him to play 56 competitive first team games? Furthermore if he really is Championship standard, how has he won 11 full caps for the Spanish national team? We’re not talking of the Faroe Islands or San Marino here. We’re talking Spain. I’m not saying Ceballos is great and I expect Real to move him on. But you don’t play 56 games for arguably the world’s biggest club in two seasons if you’re not better than Championship level.

To be honest, what has happened to Ceballos this season is indicative of something that worries me as much as the different points you raise socrates. It’s something I discussed with Rich quite recently. Players appear to get worse at Arsenal, and dare I say under Arteta? When he was first appointed I was impressed with the way players were improving. Xhaka and Mustafi were two obvious examples, and Xhaka has remained so.

But after a first season on loan by Ceballos that was good enough (he made an important contribution to Arsenal’s FA Cup win last season) to make Arteta decide to give him another year on loan, look what’s happened to him this season? Look what’s happened at Arsenal to the outstanding player Willian was at Chelsea? Look what’s happened to the outstanding prospect Ødegaard was when he joined us? Look what’s happened to Bellerin this season? Similar questions can arguably be asked about Aubameyang and Lacazette this season.

Is it outlandish to suggest they’ve all become worse players under Arteta? With any or all of them there could feasibly be other explanations. However, if their decline has nothing whatsoever to do with Arteta, then it looks to me as though the long arm of coincidence is continuing to grow appreciably.

I think it is probably true that a certain amount of players have regressed under Arteta and a certain amount of improved, how much you place either category at the door of the manager or the player themselves is a worthy debate but a difficult one to resolve until that player moves clubs and plays under a new manager.
Obvious player improvements are Saka and Smith Rowe - how much is that Arteta or down to 19 years olds being more obvious in their natural improvement as they mature?
I think Elneny has improved this season - although the bar is low
Xhaka has improved under Arteta a small bit and maintained that level, and dare I say were it not for his reputation would be considered one of our most consistent performers this season.
Lacazette has improved this season but still isn't at the reputation level he came with when he first signed.
I also think Mari has improved in the sense that hes maybe convinced a few people that he can be a 3rd choice CB for us.
Pépé maybe with some small improvements - particularly post the Leeds red card
Players who have got worse this season under Arteta: Aubameyang, Partey, Leno, Ceballos, Willian, Bellerin (need to factor in the injury)

The rest are more difficult to judge because they've either stayed at a similar level or have lost time to injury or need time to recover properly from a previous long injury.

Rich, another case worth mentioning is the way Willock has appeared to improve at Newcastle. Is that down to playing under Bruce rather than Arteta? As with all the others we’ve mentioned, it’s probably debatable how much can be put down to the manager or in Willock’s case a change of managers. But I’d say it is another example where questions are warranted.


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Post #529273  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 11:50 am 
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Leicester midfield 3 this weekend, ndidi, tielemans, Maddison

West Ham soucek, Lanzini, Lingard

Nevermind City, chelsea etc

Arsenal yesterday? El Nenny, cebackpass and Smith Rowe.....would you swap ours for theirs ? utter poverty. Our fans are deluded if you think we can get in the top 4 with players like that getting so many games. You won’t get anywhere


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Post #529274  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:31 pm 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
The moment he picked Willian for this game said it all.

Again, you completely ruin you credibility with statements like this.

Why wouldn't he play Willian in this utterly pointless, season already over, game?

Who in your view should have played in Willians position?

I am still livid with Arteta with the Xhaka at leftback thing. But one does need to get a grip.

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Post #529275  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:35 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Leicester midfield 3 this weekend, ndidi, tielemans, Maddison

West Ham soucek, Lanzini, Lingard

Nevermind City, chelsea etc

Arsenal yesterday? El Nenny, cebackpass and Smith Rowe.....would you swap ours for theirs ? utter poverty. Our fans are deluded if you think we can get in the top 4 with players like that getting so many games. You won’t get anywhere

Farcical, self-inflicted wound.

Arteta desperately wanted two quality midfielders. He got one. Really shouldn't have loaned out all of our promising up and coming midfielders. Really shouldn't have moved one of our two half decent remaining midfielders to left back.

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Post #529276  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 12:50 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Rich wrote:
I think it is probably true that a certain amount of players have regressed under Arteta and a certain amount of improved, how much you place either category at the door of the manager or the player themselves is a worthy debate but a difficult one to resolve until that player moves clubs and plays under a new manager.
Obvious player improvements are Saka and Smith Rowe - how much is that Arteta or down to 19 years olds being more obvious in their natural improvement as they mature?
I think Elneny has improved this season - although the bar is low
Xhaka has improved under Arteta a small bit and maintained that level, and dare I say were it not for his reputation would be considered one of our most consistent performers this season.
Lacazette has improved this season but still isn't at the reputation level he came with when he first signed.
I also think Mari has improved in the sense that hes maybe convinced a few people that he can be a 3rd choice CB for us.
Pépé maybe with some small improvements - particularly post the Leeds red card
Players who have got worse this season under Arteta: Aubameyang, Partey, Leno, Ceballos, Willian, Bellerin (need to factor in the injury)

The rest are more difficult to judge because they've either stayed at a similar level or have lost time to injury or need time to recover properly from a previous long injury.

Rich, another case worth mentioning is the way Willock has appeared to improve at Newcastle. Is that down to playing under Bruce rather than Arteta? As with all the others we’ve mentioned, it’s probably debatable how much can be put down to the manager or in Willock’s case a change of managers. But I’d say it is another example where questions are warranted.

I think it might be a case of just giving him minutes. You have to take a chance with young players, even if they look slightly out of their depth initially. In an ideal world (i.e one in which we had decent midfielders and Willock would have been firmly in the 'one for future' category) loaning him out would have been the right move.

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Post #529277  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:05 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Rich, another case worth mentioning is the way Willock has appeared to improve at Newcastle. Is that down to playing under Bruce rather than Arteta? As with all the others we’ve mentioned, it’s probably debatable how much can be put down to the manager or in Willock’s case a change of managers. But I’d say it is another example where questions are warranted.

I think it might be a case of just giving him minutes. You have to take a chance with young players, even if they look slightly out of their depth initially. In an ideal world (i.e one in which we had decent midfielders and Willock would have been firmly in the 'one for future' category) loaning him out would have been the right move.

Fair enough, but, believe it or not, Willock played 61 first-team games in the season and a half before he went on loan (obviously most off the bench), so he'd had plenty of opportunities to make an impact.

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Post #529278  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:06 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Rich, another case worth mentioning is the way Willock has appeared to improve at Newcastle. Is that down to playing under Bruce rather than Arteta? As with all the others we’ve mentioned, it’s probably debatable how much can be put down to the manager or in Willock’s case a change of managers. But I’d say it is another example where questions are warranted.

I think it might be a case of just giving him minutes. You have to take a chance with young players, even if they look slightly out of their depth initially. In an ideal world (i.e one in which we had decent midfielders and Willock would have been firmly in the 'one for future' category) loaning him out would have been the right move.

It would be interesting to look more closely at how Willock is being played. I haven't really watched any of his games at Newcastle. At the weekend, from the highlights I saw he seemed to be in a midfield 3 behind a front 2 who would split and work the wide areas and give him licence to press forward.
My view of Willock is he is not a No.10 - where he's been asked to play for us before as that position is more about the ball coming to you in the final third and you finding and making space in tight areas. I'm also not sure Willock is physically ready or defensively minded enough to play in a 2 man central midfield. So really you're probably looking at his best position being as a pair of No.8s playing in tandem in front of a designated holding mid. He's box to box specialising on arriving late and unmarked in the box with a nose for timing and a goal. I don't think he's ever played that role for us. In theory is you had a Partey/Cazorla/Willock midfield 3 it could suit him well. Cazorla can be the technically excellent deeper guy who's passing and creativity negates the need for a dedicated No.10.
A team who sets up to counter attack suits Willock as well because of the energy and late runs in to the box.

The question for Arteta and Arsenal is do we see us forming a team that can play to Willock's strengths or is it better to sell him to a team more suited and extract the maximum value we can from him whilst his stock is as high as it has ever been. Newcastle definitely want him


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Post #529279  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:08 pm 
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Willian's first goal for us apparently came from only his 3rd shot on target for us.


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Post #529280  Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:28 pm 
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It was great to see the joy Saka had down the left from his left back position v West Brom. He linked well with Willian. This was mainly down to creating 2 v 1's every time Saka went forward because West Brom's wide player didn't track him. It happened in a similar way v Spurs at Home because Bale didn't track back. Attacking football is pretty simple really, it is about moving the opposition out of their spaces to create spaces for you in dangerous areas. If we're static the defence can be static which is the easiest way to defend you can just patrol a 10 yard circle from your starting position and keep the correct distances to your teammates.

Saka yesterday was just the natural positivity of playing attacking football, you realise that there is an opportunity for a 2v1 and you go for it, you don't worry about the full back being out of position and their winger unmarked if they counter attack because a) you just wouldn't ever attack if you thought like that and b) you should have your central midfield and centre backs with enough positional sense and pace to cover that anyway. CM and CB need to be on high alert and on the front foot to step in and win the ball high and keep the attack recycled back or even commit the classic professional foul on the half way line


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