While there are some exciting young players. on the management side the Premiership is pretty bland at the moment. Like him or not, Mourinho adds value, if only as a pantomime villain?

Yes, but take 52% of the UK population on any given subject and there will be some Trumpetry. The mistake certain Remainers have made is to bag everybody who disagees with them as stupid, racist and worst of all old or working-class!

No doubt there are grounds for being wary of the EU. But when the two figureheads of the movement are Johnson and Farage one wonders ...

G'Day Old Man

I’ve a slightly different perspective now on Trumpsters and Brexiteers. I’ve been in America for the last few weeks, mostly in Trump heartland. I’ve been listening to UK radio, courtesy of Alexa, and reading my Grauniad cover to cover on-line to keep up with the Brexit developments. I’ve also been keeping abreast of the impeachment developments on US TV. I sat for almost 2 hours last week slack-jawed and utterly mesmerised as I watched Trump’s rally live. Farage may be a devious and slightly sinister nutter, Rees-Mogg a privileged anachronistic irrelevance and Johnson a self-serving policy-vacuum liar – but – Trump is in a whole different league.

Whilst there are indeed similarities between the two groups, I’d have to observe that the average Trump supporter is far scarier than soppy old Brexiteers – probably because they tend to be armed.

I was at a very civilised dinner party the other night. 8 guests including me and the old trout and an old left-leaning Gooner mate from London and his wife; he’s been a US Citizen for 30 years, though you’d never know it. The other 4 were rampant Trump supporters. They were extolling the virtues of Trump’s policies, particularly on tax cuts. I mentioned that only the wealthy were advantaged by these policies. I asked one guy – a retired Fire Chief in a major US city – whether he was concerned about the poor. Two word answer – *%^@ ‘em. Not often I’m lost for words.

I'm completely baffled at how you think the ills you describe will subside with return to unfettered nationalism. I'm sure that the likes of Putin and Xi and other strong-men, and the plutocrats, are rubbing their hand with glee at the prospect of European disintegration. Certain factions of capital will suffer, but others will thrive.

The alternatives are pretty stark: a united Europe warts and all, or lots of Polands, Turkeys, and Bulgarias engaging oppressive politics and feuding with each other. Nationalism and Great Power politics are on the rise and are very ugly indeed.

The ability of people to support Trump is astounding, when he quite blatantly makes a complete fool of himself, and shows himself to b e a dangerously moronic and deranged megalomaniac criminal, whenever he opens his mouth or sets his thumbs in motion.

Evidence and logic say he will come unstuck very soon. But wow, he has surely proven that anything is possible in politics, and his base seeming remains as solid as ever. I'm waiting for that approval rating to start dipping below 40% -- then rats will be jumping ship and corks will be popping and handcuffs clicking. However, it it stays above 40% I fear we are doomed.

Özil says he intends staying at Arsenal until the end of his contract in 2021. If that’s what happens it uses up £18.2m (£350k x 52) of the annual pay budget until the end of next season.

Football contracts routinely expire on 30 June of whatever year. So there’s approximately 8.5 months of this season’s contract to pay him (70.8%) plus the full 12 months (100%) of his contract next season. At £350k per week that’s approaching another £31.1m that we will be paying Özil before we finally get rid of him.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3Famp

People on the fringe right try to say that America isn't as bad as others say because afterall, "we" (not them) elected Barack Obama didn't we? Well, if we look closely at the numbers. Obama got nearly 53% of the popular vote. McCain got 45% (specifically 45.7%).

Trump has routinely polled around 45% of the people. So, the major difference between now and then is that people who were opposed to the right wing side of things came out to vote. They didn't come out for Hillary and she lost a few people on the way.

You have given anecdotal evidence to my prior post when I say America is done. Trump has sped up the decline. Part of that 45% are for big business, against the "poor" even though they may very well be defined as poor and many are.

As far as i can tell the average Brexiter is no where close to the core Trump supporter. I'd trade them for our Trumpsters any day of the week. Trump has dismantled many Civil Rights Era laws and regulations. Targeting the businesses of those that oppose him like Bezos of Amazon (which I am no fan of but abuse of power is illegal if you are an elected politician). People think his hard core supporters of country rubes with limited education and intelligence. I can only tel you of the ones I know who have advanced degrees, some of them well traveled, etc.
There are so many things going on here behind the scenes that are straight out of the fascist playbook it would make your headspin.

Trump has dismantled many Civil Rights Era laws and regulations.

I'll give you one example. Maintaining your American citizenship has never been questioned, even when there were tens of thousands of poor Europeans coming to us. Once they got citizenship it was a done deal...till now.

Trump's immigration adviser, the same one who started putting kids in cages, has sent teams of workers to cities like Los Angeles to pour through hundreds of thousands of citizenship applications and retroactively dissolve citizenship. This is a first.

https://www.thenation.com/article/denat ... a-goldman/

This January a judge revoked the citizenship of Baljinder Singh. The Trump administration looking to slice and dice the country along the lines of white nativism hit upon a jackpot; in a memo dated September 2016, Homeland Security’s Office of the Inspector General announced that, because of some past oversight, nearly 148,000 fingerprints of deported and criminal aliens had not been uploaded into the system and were missing. The consequence, according to the government calculation, was that 858 individuals may have been granted citizenship despite the possibility that they may have committed crimes of moral turpitude.

In Baljinder Singh’s case, the problem lay in a more than 25-year-old lie. He had been unmade an American citizen because he had the temerity to use a false name when he entered the country in 1991. The USCIS is also in the process of denaturalizing two other men, Parvez Manzoor Khan and Rashid Mahmood, both of whom had been citizens for over a decade for similarly minor issues in their applications.

No fan of either of them but are they really any worse than the grey men of Brussels who take their pound of flesh for nothing but spinning a web of bureaucracy, it's not 1957 anymore and the EU today has become a nest of old men and lawyers making money for nothing.

I'm not going to cry about leaving, why would I?.

I would do exactly the same but I would accept a settlement to leave - call it 30mil

Can I ask a couple of simple questions for either or both of Brexit views.

Last time I was in London, which was over 12 years ago, the hotels I stayed at had all european staff. The service was great I must add.

All employed as part of the EU arrangement. Whether there is a deal or not, will these hotels now be staffed with British people and if so when will the current staff be required to leave the country.

Can I rent a car in the UK and drive it in Europe and will all the insurance and rego still be recognised. Or vica versa?

I don’t blame him either. As DHD implied a few days ago, Özil is playing things cleverly, appearing the perfect professional and so on.

Unless he’s a bad influence on the dressing room and team spirit, and there’s no evidence of that which I can see, what will paying off his contract with £30m do? It lowers Arsenal’s transfer budget by that sum for January and next summer, rather than losing it in stages of £350k per week. Is that any better? I’m not sure.

Or maybe we might just get a manager who can utilise Özil's abilities.

Is Nigel Farage worse than some EU bureaucrats? Yes he is.

Or Boris who wastes the taxpayers money openly and blatantly to get himself laid or hand it to his mates

Jesus Christ imagine thinking they aren’t

Ozils a wasteman going through the motions. No manager improves him. He’s terrible away from home even in his best few years and he’s simply angling for a pay off and has been for a while now.

Ok you can rent a car and drive it into a Europe after Brexit but you will need to make sure a green card has been arranged but no doubt the car rental company can sort it for you. A small cost might be applicable

On the hotel thing I’d suggest that isn’t the major question. The most interesting and relevant one is that 26% of doctors in the NHS aren’t British so will you see staffing issues. These doctors from overseas may not see Britain as an attractive proposition because of the thick xenophobic population who voted for Brexit and who believe it’s ok for them to treat our medical issues but they don’t belong in the country.

I spend a lot of time in the US in Trumpland. I wouldn’t broach a political conversation whilst there, New York maybe but not Florida. The trump thing is crazy with seemingly intelligent people voting for him just because he’s a republican. Many of his voters seem to preach Christian type values whilst indulging in his facism. Hypocrites

That all said trump is only in power for 8 years at most and everyone can make a bad political choice for a candidate. Brexit however is for life so there’s just cause to suggest an argument that brexiteers are one of the stupidest groups of people of all time and have eclipsed the Trumpers in red hats. It’s not definite but possible.

Basically, most people in Ireland (north and south) rather the UK didn't leave - but if it is to go ahead and leave the major objective was to avoid the imposition checks/border on the island of Ireland against the will of the vast majority of the people. Johnson's deal delivers the border down the Irish Sea and also the north of Ireland seems to be protected in many regards from his "hard Brexit" deal for the rest of the UK. It also allows the rest of the UK to go ahead as they please in the future.

That makes it acceptable and lets be honest it's another step in the road towards eventual unity of the island which I want to see.

Probably not get through Westminster though.

Okay was interested from a holiday perspective As we are booked for Turkey as one of destinations next year and wanted to think sbout the uk if our tour gets cancelled. But it will have to be very messy for us not to go to Turkey.

Always wanted to go to Turkey but never been so far. That should be an amazing holiday.

As Mark Twain once said 'Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.'”

A Few in the UK need a reminder of this

Turkey is a wonderful place. Get yourself to Ephesus if you have the chance and wonder at the majesty of it.

Ironic that you’ll be visiting Europes newest member whilst we’re jumping ship. If Turkey can sort it’s leadership issues it will fast become a major player on the world stage.

Exhibit A as to why there is a Brexit.

Boris Johnson will be leader of the Labour Party before Turkey will be in the EU.

I am after hearing a political commentator say he has been told Bojo is 3 short o getting it though. It could be tight.

I’m gonna suggest that 20 years of anti immigration publications in media , austerity and a decline in general intelligence is more culpable than my personal opinion

Your right

They would need Erdogan to disappear and even then it would take them years to comply with the terms and somehow not get blocked.

It’s not possible and further proof brexiteers have little between their ears

I wouldn't normally don't go near politics over here either TG. Couple of years ago I was watching (American) football in a bar and chatting with the guys around. I asked one middle-aged bloke what he thought of players who 'take the knee' for the national anthem.

He said "Sir (they're very polite) I would shoot them in the face".

I believed him.

They’re already in, just not common knowledge yet.

While there are a few brexiteers on here can I ask a couple of questions. Can anyone tell me what tangible benefits they are going to get when we leave, also what were the disadvantages to you personally that made you want to leave. If you answer sovereignty please tell me which law you want to repeal first?
Bubble Chris needn't answer as he hasn't got a clue.

Yeah it’s incredible how they can be so god fearing yet sucked in by it. I had 2 colleagues there based in Miami who were pretty smart guys and I almost fell of my chair when they both told me they were voting for trump.

I think talking politics seems fine in California with business contacts but I wouldn’t breach it in Florida.

In Vegas around the time trump was trying to do away with Obamacare an American in the bar next to us who had clearly been pumped full of Trump propaganda was trying to to tell us our NHS was an appalling idea and listing a load of plainly non truths. Politely bit my tongue.

This type of “hate politics” will be seen more and more over here now. Dominic Cummings, Boris and his like worship The trump campaign methods and are adopting them now. More division coming

The leavers can't name a single benefit to brexit ..

Because they can.

They just won't admit they want a Britain just for the British.

They want to be able to start sending foreigners "back".

And they see that as "a start" before moving on to black and brown Britons.


That’s why you won’t get logical or rational answer to the question you are asking here dude. Nobody does something for no reason in life but if you can’t publicly admit the reason because it’s grotesque then point at something else no matter how stupid it is.

I've been asking Brexiteers for the last 3 years and have been unable to get an answer from anyone. The way some of them answer sovereignty makes me smile as they can't give one law they want to change. What annoys me the most is when you look at meetings of the brexit parties is the age of them. It's all people of my age who are screwing up the next generation. It's sad.

I couldn't agree more,

Brexit is largely an older generations fight against the 21st century and a tool to empower racism.

Nobody does something for no reason. If somebody is unable to provide a logical answer for why they did something there is a reason and the reason is because they are a bit dim or don’t want to reveal their sinister true intention.

I wouldn't disagree, Niall, but it's still a terrible idea. An imaginary border in the middle of the sea. That really is quite absurd.

Self-determination. The UK contributes to EU funding and has committed to doing so. Now you can argue that the benefits far outweigh the costs, but that really isn't the point theoretically.

It really is wrong to say that racism is the primary motivation applying to every person who supports Brexit.

Your right it’s about 80/20 with stupidity, but you can tell the ones who are though because they use words like “ invasion”. “Implode” and use all the world war 2 cliches

That’s a really good point Gaz. In the Home Counties around London, there are virtually no Brits employed in the Hotel / Restaurant / Hospitality sector. There are more Brits employed in the North but the vast majority are still ‘Guest’ workers. This sector is vital to the nations economy but it’s probably staffed 80-90% by foreigners, not just from Europe but from all over the world.

Brits don’t really do ‘service’ any more - haven’t for a generation or more. Who knows how our ‘Guests’ will be replaced if, as is likely, they will leave in droves, put off by the rampant anti-foreigner vibe that pervades the UK now and unwilling or unable to get to grips with the reams of intrusive, aggressive and bureaucratic forms that are now required to be completed in order to preserve their settled status.

Some will say that this is all an unintended consequence of the referendum vote. Others will admit the truth.

Seems to me that if this deal is accepted, it will open the door for the re-unification of Ireland whose future will be as an independent state within the EU. Scotland will probably beat them to it as the clamour for a new independence referendum will be almost impossible to resist. Not sure about Wales; they don’t have a particularly strong hand in this game.

So England will find itself in a position that some will characterise as ‘independent’ but in reality, we’ll be a much smaller nation, isolated and surrounded by countries who in history have all suffered at the hands of the English.

Autonomous regional governments within England will probably follow. Those Saxons knew a thing or two, eh?

Woohoo...

What price London declaring UDI? The Independent Republic of the M25. Customs and border controls at every junction to keep the undesirables out.

I have ended up settling for a bus tour. I am afraid I don't do these trips very well as i get impatient with stupid people. But because I didn't want to do all the organising myself the trip does:

Istanbul (been before), Gallipoli, Ephesus, Perge, Aspendos, Pergomon, Konya and Cappadocia. looking forward to it.

This is a couple of weeks in a 3 month trip so I have a few alternatives should things turn messy. We start on a cruise which takes has stopovers at Petra, valley of the Kings, Israel before up into the Mediterrain.

Bit of time in Portugal and an 11 day walk on part of the Camino for my wife.