Too embarrassed Decaf.

We make Italy look stable. We make Brazil look moderate. Boris makes Trump look wise.

We have become a laughing stock. And we all know this will end in tears.

No it will all go well. Take back the empire - instill a little bit of discipline into those bloody foreigners. Taking back India and Pakistan on 1 November is Boris’ aim. The rest will quietly comply. I think Hong Kong might take a while but Boris in the underground bunker, smoking cigars, making speeches on the radio and a cognac at night. Simple plan for a simple man.

I agree but staggeringly many people in the UK think this is good.

Just listened to a caller on James O’Brien who said he was happy that Boris was lying to the country about proroguing parliament.

My cousins mrs is sharing petitions on Facebook to stop parliament interfering with Johnson’s plan.

Many people think all this chaos is going to improve their lives.

Turkeys hoping for an early Christmas.

Trips to Germany, Belgium and Portugal in the EL group. Not bad. Glad we’ve avoided a journey to Kazakhstan or the like.

Totally if you voted for Brexit and still think it is a good idea even at this stage then you are a *%^@*** moron. End of story

Not the easiest of groups but we should get through it.

Eintracht Frankfurt
Standard Leige
Vitoria Guimaraes

Getting back to the final should be the main goal.

Interesting post, but I believe we should be aiming for a quarter-final exit.

Due to your weekly frothing at the mouth over Brexit I'd hope you know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do

but speaking of morons .... allowing your country to be told what you can and can't do by a bunch of unelected foreigners doesn't seem that wise either .

They don’t tell us what to do.

That’s the biggest lie about the whole thing.

If you think the government isn’t in charge of every single major aspect of our lives as it stands currently your kidding yourselves.

The "We don't want Brussels telling us what to do." iargument is deeply flawed. Britain was clearly one of the most influential members of the EU and when it comes to the big decisions it is down to individual governments. The Remain campaign failed miserably to deal with that issue during the referendum campaign.

I find the whole situation both worrying but also very sad. A hard Brexit seems inevitable and the fallout will be severe and long-lasting.

I think they did a bad campaign but I don’t think brexiteers care about facts, they are largely a xenophobic trope not interested in details. They have been sold a 20 year lie that everything wrong in their lives is because of immigration and they can’t see beyond it.

I’ve read the list of stuff we objected to and the EU forced on us and believe me if you listed them here us forumites all would have voted FOR all of them. For example we voted againest airline passengers getting compensation for delayed flights. I mean wtf

Just so everyone's aware.
Kick off date-time change on Nov. 6 for Vitoria EL match.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foo ... 85651.html

I find the subject immensely depressing and sad.

In my view, the whole Brexit agenda has been foisted upon us by an elite group of very rich and influential toffs, many of whose ancestors came over on the boat with Willie the Conq. This thing has been brewing for years. These are people who don't need Europe - indeed they need for nothing. They have never experienced deprivation in any form and they have no fear whatever of 'consequences'. They thrive on uncertainty; it's an engine of prosperity for those in a position of financial strength who can take advantage of the opportunities a broken economy will offer. All they fear is transparency in the form of what they see as unwarranted governmental intrusion into their financial dealings and holdings, for which the EU has been pressing for some time now.

As TG says, by subtly moving the focus over a number of years onto immigration, foreigners, austerity and what they term as a non-elected legislature - as if they themselves have ever been elected - they have shaped the debate, convincing vast areas of this island nation that the old enemy - Europe - is at the bottom of all our problems. They have fanned the flames to the point where it's now a curious alliance of the wealthy, the elderly, the under-educated and the under-privileged (brutal but in essence, true) who now carry the fight.

Sadly, I don't think this thing can be stopped. More worryingly, I can't see how the UK can be mended.

Apologies if I offend anyone with this view.

Yes that is a really big issue in the scheme of things...

The thing is people say that the division within the country will end which it will but certainly not in my lifetime.

A small majority voting for leave that definitely were not voting for no deal and now low and behold it’s happening.

If you can have a referendum about the EU why can’t you have one for no deal. However we’re leaving with a deal now with some extreme consequences about to occur. (Try selling grain abroad with a 20% tariff)

That resentment will never leave people.

I have Scots in my family who largely voted to remain part of the UK in the independence vote. Now if the vote was taken I think they would be pro leaving because our government is a mess.

The country will never be the same

Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you.

How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family ? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?

Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.

“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?

So you can’t answer, ok gotcha

You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.

Nor, I’d suggest, is it the Brexit that those who voted ‘out’ expected.

A referendum is an advisory vote, nobody even mentioned no deal. An advisory vote is not a licence to wreck and divide the country at any cost.

My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.

Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?

Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

I agree. He may turn out to be a decent player somewhere else but enough is enough.

My bet is that we will never leave the EU, so fear not!

Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't.
Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility.
The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.

Yes the position of referenda in our "constitution" is contentious, especially to those who lose the argument, but if you think not honouring the result of the largest one ever held in our history will heal divisions, then you are in for a rude awakening. If we don't Brexit - as I expect - then all bets are off about democracy in our basically decent country.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.

Your saying exactly that. It’s a gateway for trade and movement. A platform. We have the 7th largest gdp in the world. However because the government are helmets your saying we should leave without being able to identify a logical reason for leaving.

I’m not having anymore kids so therefore I won’t bother getting laid anymore.

Precisely.

I agree. If we are not careful the failure of Parliament to implement the result of something it asked the people to vote on will weaken Parliament itself.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

Well that is your best hope.

Your view that not implementing the referendum shakes democracy to the roots makes no sense to me.

It is parliament that is the sovereign institution. How can you think that the way MPs vote must be bound by a referendum result? If you think your MP has done something wrong, vote him or her out.

What has happened here is that the TORIES have screwed this up completely. They played a game that backfired completely on them.

I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies. Of course our own politicians bear the ultimate responsibility for domestic matters, but if the membership of the EU can't make a big difference in solving our major issues, then why not try something else? If we Brexit we are not leaving paradise.

Indeed! The EU didn't elect Thatcher or Blair. We are seeing this terrible scapegoatism in South Africa too. Everything from crime to unemployment is blamed on 'undocumented immigrants'.

Who are these men of lust, greed, and glory?
Rip off the masks and let see
But that's no right oh no, what's the story?
But there's you and there's me

The CBI estimates that the net benefit of EU membership is worth 4-5% of GDP to the UK, or £62bn-£78bn per year.

The EU is responsible for 44.6 per cent of all UK exports of goods and services, and 53.2 per cent of the UK’s imports of goods and services.