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Post #510041  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:26 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
...For example we voted againest airline passengers getting compensation for delayed flights. I mean wtf
Yes that is a really big issue in the scheme of things...

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Post #510042  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:27 pm 
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The thing is people say that the division within the country will end which it will but certainly not in my lifetime.

A small majority voting for leave that definitely were not voting for no deal and now low and behold it’s happening.

If you can have a referendum about the EU why can’t you have one for no deal. However we’re leaving with a deal now with some extreme consequences about to occur. (Try selling grain abroad with a 20% tariff)

That resentment will never leave people.

I have Scots in my family who largely voted to remain part of the UK in the independence vote. Now if the vote was taken I think they would be pro leaving because our government is a mess.

The country will never be the same


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Post #510043  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:29 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
...For example we voted againest airline passengers getting compensation for delayed flights. I mean wtf
Yes that is a really big issue in the scheme of things...

Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you.

How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family ? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?


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Post #510044  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:40 pm 
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DHD wrote:
I find the subject immensely depressing and sad.

In my view, the whole Brexit agenda has been foisted upon us by an elite group of very rich and influential toffs, many of whose ancestors came over on the boat with Willie the Conq. This thing has been brewing for years. These are people who don't need Europe - indeed they need for nothing. They have never experienced deprivation in any form and they have no fear whatever of 'consequences'. They thrive on uncertainty; it's an engine of prosperity for those in a position of financial strength who can take advantage of the opportunities a broken economy will offer. All they fear is transparency in the form of what they see as unwarranted governmental intrusion into their financial dealings and holdings, for which the EU has been pressing for some time now.

As TG says, by subtly moving the focus over a number of years onto immigration, foreigners, austerity and what they term as a non-elected legislature - as if they themselves have ever been elected - they have shaped the debate, convincing vast areas of this island nation that the old enemy - Europe - is at the bottom of all our problems. They have fanned the flames to the point where it's now a curious alliance of the wealthy, the elderly, the under-educated and the under-privileged (brutal but in essence, true) who now carry the fight.

Sadly, I don't think this thing can be stopped. More worryingly, I can't see how the UK can be mended.

Apologies if I offend anyone with this view.
Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

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Post #510045  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:58 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Yes that is a really big issue in the scheme of things...
Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

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Post #510046  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:05 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:
I find the subject immensely depressing and sad.

In my view, the whole Brexit agenda has been foisted upon us by an elite group of very rich and influential toffs, many of whose ancestors came over on the boat with Willie the Conq. This thing has been brewing for years. These are people who don't need Europe - indeed they need for nothing. They have never experienced deprivation in any form and they have no fear whatever of 'consequences'. They thrive on uncertainty; it's an engine of prosperity for those in a position of financial strength who can take advantage of the opportunities a broken economy will offer. All they fear is transparency in the form of what they see as unwarranted governmental intrusion into their financial dealings and holdings, for which the EU has been pressing for some time now.

As TG says, by subtly moving the focus over a number of years onto immigration, foreigners, austerity and what they term as a non-elected legislature - as if they themselves have ever been elected - they have shaped the debate, convincing vast areas of this island nation that the old enemy - Europe - is at the bottom of all our problems. They have fanned the flames to the point where it's now a curious alliance of the wealthy, the elderly, the under-educated and the under-privileged (brutal but in essence, true) who now carry the fight.

Sadly, I don't think this thing can be stopped. More worryingly, I can't see how the UK can be mended.

Apologies if I offend anyone with this view.
Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


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Post #510047  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:06 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:

The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union



“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?


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Post #510048  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:08 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.


So you can’t answer, ok gotcha

You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.


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Post #510049  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:11 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:

Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


Nor, I’d suggest, is it the Brexit that those who voted ‘out’ expected.


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Post #510050  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:11 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


A referendum is an advisory vote, nobody even mentioned no deal. An advisory vote is not a licence to wreck and divide the country at any cost.


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Post #510051  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:31 pm 
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DHD wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:

The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union



“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?
My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.

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Post #510052  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:44 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:

“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?
My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.


Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?


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Post #510053  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:52 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

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Post #510054  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:55 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
You clearly dislike him enough to exaggerate the problems about him. He has had plenty of good games. Prone to bad errors, I accept that. But not as bad as you try make out.


He’s about as useful as an ejector seat on a helicopter.

:laughing7: :laughing7:
I agree. He may turn out to be a decent player somewhere else but enough is enough.

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Post #510055  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:56 pm 
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DHD wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.


Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?
My bet is that we will never leave the EU, so fear not!

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Post #510056  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:03 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


A referendum is an advisory vote, nobody even mentioned no deal. An advisory vote is not a licence to wreck and divide the country at any cost.

Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't.
Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility.
The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.


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Post #510057  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:04 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


A referendum is an advisory vote, nobody even mentioned no deal. An advisory vote is not a licence to wreck and divide the country at any cost.
Yes the position of referenda in our "constitution" is contentious, especially to those who lose the argument, but if you think not honouring the result of the largest one ever held in our history will heal divisions, then you are in for a rude awakening. If we don't Brexit - as I expect - then all bets are off about democracy in our basically decent country.

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Post #510058  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:06 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.

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Post #510059  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:08 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain?


Your saying exactly that. It’s a gateway for trade and movement. A platform. We have the 7th largest gdp in the world. However because the government are helmets your saying we should leave without being able to identify a logical reason for leaving.

I’m not having anymore kids so therefore I won’t bother getting laid anymore.


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Post #510060  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:08 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.


Precisely.


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Post #510061  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:11 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't. Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility. The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.
I agree. If we are not careful the failure of Parliament to implement the result of something it asked the people to vote on will weaken Parliament itself.

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Post #510062  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:16 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.


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Post #510063  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:19 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:

Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?
My bet is that we will never leave the EU, so fear not!

Well that is your best hope.

Your view that not implementing the referendum shakes democracy to the roots makes no sense to me.

It is parliament that is the sovereign institution. How can you think that the way MPs vote must be bound by a referendum result? If you think your MP has done something wrong, vote him or her out.

What has happened here is that the TORIES have screwed this up completely. They played a game that backfired completely on them.

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Post #510064  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:25 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.
I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies. Of course our own politicians bear the ultimate responsibility for domestic matters, but if the membership of the EU can't make a big difference in solving our major issues, then why not try something else? If we Brexit we are not leaving paradise.

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Post #510065  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:31 pm 
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DHD wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

Indeed! The EU didn't elect Thatcher or Blair. We are seeing this terrible scapegoatism in South Africa too. Everything from crime to unemployment is blamed on 'undocumented immigrants'.

Who are these men of lust, greed, and glory?
Rip off the masks and let see
But that's no right oh no, what's the story?
But there's you and there's me

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Post #510066  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:33 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Decaf wrote:
I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.
I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies.


The CBI estimates that the net benefit of EU membership is worth 4-5% of GDP to the UK, or £62bn-£78bn per year.

The EU is responsible for 44.6 per cent of all UK exports of goods and services, and 53.2 per cent of the UK’s imports of goods and services.


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Post #510067  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:36 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Decaf wrote:
I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.
I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies. Of course our own politicians bear the ultimate responsibility for domestic matters, but if the membership of the EU can't make a big difference in solving our major issues, then why not try something else? If we Brexit we are not leaving paradise.

The achievements of the broader European project have been immense. 70 years of peace and prosperity. What's good for Europe is good for Britain.

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Post #510068  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:38 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't. Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility. The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.
I agree. If we are not careful the failure of Parliament to implement the result of something it asked the people to vote on will weaken Parliament itself.

Come again?

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Post #510069  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:38 pm 
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DHD wrote:
But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living. It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.
Yes I agree where the ultimate domestic responsibility lies, but you make my point for me. EU membership is not about helping us solve our real social needs, but it may impact socially and economically on our ability to do so. I think it is widely accepted that overall we are a net contributor rather than beneficiaries of the market and its freedom of movement, and that has had an impact on our finances. In time we can probably do better outside the EU.

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Post #510070  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
DHD wrote:
But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

Indeed! The EU didn't elect Thatcher or Blair. We are seeing this terrible scapegoatism in South Africa too. Everything from crime to unemployment is blamed on 'undocumented immigrants'.

Who are these men of lust, greed, and glory?
Rip off the masks and let see
But that's no right oh no, what's the story?
But there's you and there's me
Show me the goat I have scaped!

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Post #510071  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies. Of course our own politicians bear the ultimate responsibility for domestic matters, but if the membership of the EU can't make a big difference in solving our major issues, then why not try something else? If we Brexit we are not leaving paradise.

The achievements of the broader European project have been immense. 70 years of peace and prosperity. What's good for Europe is good for Britain.

Yes I like apples too, but I was talking about oranges!

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Post #510072  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:41 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:
But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living. It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.
Yes I agree where the ultimate domestic responsibility lies, but you make my point for me. EU membership is not about helping us solve our real social needs, but it may impact socially and economically on our ability to do so. I think it is widely accepted that overall we are a net contributor rather than beneficiaries of the market and its freedom of movement, and that has had an impact on our finances. In time we can probably do better outside the EU.


To repeat 5% of our total GDP is because we are in the EU.


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Post #510073  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Trips to Germany, Belgium and Portugal in the EL group. Not bad. Glad we’ve avoided a journey to Kazakhstan or the like.

Better check your passport is up to date and you have the necessary visas.

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Post #510074  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:48 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
I agree. If we are not careful the failure of Parliament to implement the result of something it asked the people to vote on will weaken Parliament itself.

Come again?
When Parliament asked the people to vote on the issue - and it did - and the people in huge numbers then made known their view - Parliament will lose credibility if it does not implement the vote.

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Post #510075  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:52 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Yes I agree where the ultimate domestic responsibility lies, but you make my point for me. EU membership is not about helping us solve our real social needs, but it may impact socially and economically on our ability to do so. I think it is widely accepted that overall we are a net contributor rather than beneficiaries of the market and its freedom of movement, and that has had an impact on our finances. In time we can probably do better outside the EU.


To repeat 5% of our total GDP is because we are in the EU.
Leaving the EU does not mean we cease trading with its members. It does mean we can trade with non-members on our, rather than EU terms. Swings and roundabouts. How high and fast the freer trade will go is not yet known, but trading there will be.

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Post #510076  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:11 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
Trips to Germany, Belgium and Portugal in the EL group. Not bad. Glad we’ve avoided a journey to Kazakhstan or the like.

Better check your passport is up to date and you have the necessary visas.

Yes, my passport is up to date, and if we actually do leave the EU at any point I'm sure I'll manage. As far as I know I'm not on Interpol's wanted list so I'm sure I'll be allowed in to spend my hard earned and do my bit to help the aforementioned neighbours' economies.


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Post #510077  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:13 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:
But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living. It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.
Yes I agree where the ultimate domestic responsibility lies, but you make my point for me. EU membership is not about helping us solve our real social needs, but it may impact socially and economically on our ability to do so. I think it is widely accepted that overall we are a net contributor rather than beneficiaries of the market and its freedom of movement, and that has had an impact on our finances.

Even that is the fault of your politicians. You are going to get screwed over in trade deals outside the EU if you send the likes of Farage and Johnson to negotiate them.

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Post #510078  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:18 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Decaf wrote:
Come again?
When Parliament asked the people to vote on the issue - and it did - and the people in huge numbers then made known their view - Parliament will lose credibility if it does not implement the vote.

So you don't acknowledge the primacy of Parliament when if comes to the details of Brexit? They must just rubber-stamp what the Tories come up with?

I am an outsider, so perhaps I am missing something.

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Post #510079  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:23 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Decaf wrote:
The achievements of the broader European project have been immense. 70 years of peace and prosperity. What's good for Europe is good for Britain.

Yes I like apples too, but I was talking about oranges!

" simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country" = oranges.

What I said = oranges.

(in fact, your statement was so encompassing that its apples too, but I'll leave that).

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Post #510080  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:09 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:
But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living. It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.
Yes I agree where the ultimate domestic responsibility lies, but you make my point for me. EU membership is not about helping us solve our real social needs, but it may impact socially and economically on our ability to do so. I think it is widely accepted that overall we are a net contributor rather than beneficiaries of the market and its freedom of movement, and that has had an impact on our finances. In time we can probably do better outside the EU.


Sorry Old Man but I make no point at all in support of your notion that Europe has somehow failed the UK. Your arguments make no sense.


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