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Post #501921  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:45 am 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
He’s as useless as a penis on a Catholic priest

Wake up!

You clearly dislike him enough to exaggerate the problems about him. He has had plenty of good games. Prone to bad errors, I accept that. But not as bad as you try make out.


He’s about as useful as an ejector seat on a helicopter.


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Post #501922  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:22 am 
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Decaf wrote:

I was hoping to be enlightened about the latest in the Brexit fiasco but ... nada.


Too embarrassed Decaf.

We make Italy look stable. We make Brazil look moderate. Boris makes Trump look wise.

We have become a laughing stock. And we all know this will end in tears.


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Post #501923  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:43 am 
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DHD wrote:
Decaf wrote:

I was hoping to be enlightened about the latest in the Brexit fiasco but ... nada.


Too embarrassed Decaf.

We make Italy look stable. We make Brazil look moderate. Boris makes Trump look wise.

We have become a laughing stock. And we all know this will end in tears.

No it will all go well. Take back the empire - instill a little bit of discipline into those bloody foreigners. Taking back India and Pakistan on 1 November is Boris’ aim. The rest will quietly comply. I think Hong Kong might take a while but Boris in the underground bunker, smoking cigars, making speeches on the radio and a cognac at night. Simple plan for a simple man.

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Post #501924  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:05 am 
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DHD wrote:
Decaf wrote:

I was hoping to be enlightened about the latest in the Brexit fiasco but ... nada.




We have become a laughing stock. And we all know this will end in tears.


I agree but staggeringly many people in the UK think this is good.

Just listened to a caller on James O’Brien who said he was happy that Boris was lying to the country about proroguing parliament.

My cousins mrs is sharing petitions on Facebook to stop parliament interfering with Johnson’s plan.

Many people think all this chaos is going to improve their lives. :8surprise:


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Post #501925  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:18 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:

Many people think all this chaos is going to improve their lives.



Turkeys hoping for an early Christmas.


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Post #501926  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Trips to Germany, Belgium and Portugal in the EL group. Not bad. Glad we’ve avoided a journey to Kazakhstan or the like.


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Post #501927  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:30 pm 
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DHD wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

Many people think all this chaos is going to improve their lives.



Turkeys hoping for an early Christmas.



Totally if you voted for Brexit and still think it is a good idea even at this stage then you are a *%^@*** moron. End of story


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Post #501928  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:39 pm 
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Not the easiest of groups but we should get through it.

Eintracht Frankfurt
Standard Leige
Vitoria Guimaraes

Getting back to the final should be the main goal.

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Post #501929  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:03 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Not the easiest of groups but we should get through it.

Eintracht Frankfurt
Standard Leige
Vitoria Guimaraes

Getting back to the final should be the main goal.

Interesting post, but I believe we should be aiming for a quarter-final exit.

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Post #501930  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:23 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:

Totally if you voted for Brexit and still think it is a good idea even at this stage then you are a *%^@*** moron. End of story


Due to your weekly frothing at the mouth over Brexit I'd hope you know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do

but speaking of morons .... allowing your country to be told what you can and can't do by a bunch of unelected foreigners doesn't seem that wise either .


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Post #501931  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:32 pm 
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kiwipete wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

Totally if you voted for Brexit and still think it is a good idea even at this stage then you are a *%^@*** moron. End of story


Due to your weekly frothing at the mouth over Brexit I'd hope you know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do

but speaking of morons .... allowing your country to be told what you can and can't do by a bunch of unelected foreigners doesn't seem that wise either .


They don’t tell us what to do.

That’s the biggest lie about the whole thing.

If you think the government isn’t in charge of every single major aspect of our lives as it stands currently your kidding yourselves.


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Post #501932  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:34 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
kiwipete wrote:

Due to your weekly frothing at the mouth over Brexit I'd hope you know a hell of a lot more about the subject than I do

but speaking of morons .... allowing your country to be told what you can and can't do by a bunch of unelected foreigners doesn't seem that wise either .


They don’t tell us what to do.

That’s the biggest lie about the whole thing.

If you think the government isn’t in charge of every single major aspect of our lives as it stands currently your kidding yourselves.

The "We don't want Brussels telling us what to do." iargument is deeply flawed. Britain was clearly one of the most influential members of the EU and when it comes to the big decisions it is down to individual governments. The Remain campaign failed miserably to deal with that issue during the referendum campaign.

I find the whole situation both worrying but also very sad. A hard Brexit seems inevitable and the fallout will be severe and long-lasting.

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Post #501933  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:55 pm 
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dec wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

They don’t tell us what to do.

That’s the biggest lie about the whole thing.

If you think the government isn’t in charge of every single major aspect of our lives as it stands currently your kidding yourselves.

The "We don't want Brussels telling us what to do." iargument is deeply flawed. Britain was clearly one of the most influential members of the EU and when it comes to the big decisions it is down to individual governments. The Remain campaign failed miserably to deal with that issue during the referendum campaign.

.


I think they did a bad campaign but I don’t think brexiteers care about facts, they are largely a xenophobic trope not interested in details. They have been sold a 20 year lie that everything wrong in their lives is because of immigration and they can’t see beyond it.

I’ve read the list of stuff we objected to and the EU forced on us and believe me if you listed them here us forumites all would have voted FOR all of them. For example we voted againest airline passengers getting compensation for delayed flights. I mean wtf


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Post #501934  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:12 pm 
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Just so everyone's aware.
Kick off date-time change on Nov. 6 for Vitoria EL match.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foo ... 85651.html

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Post #501935  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:38 pm 
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I find the subject immensely depressing and sad.

In my view, the whole Brexit agenda has been foisted upon us by an elite group of very rich and influential toffs, many of whose ancestors came over on the boat with Willie the Conq. This thing has been brewing for years. These are people who don't need Europe - indeed they need for nothing. They have never experienced deprivation in any form and they have no fear whatever of 'consequences'. They thrive on uncertainty; it's an engine of prosperity for those in a position of financial strength who can take advantage of the opportunities a broken economy will offer. All they fear is transparency in the form of what they see as unwarranted governmental intrusion into their financial dealings and holdings, for which the EU has been pressing for some time now.

As TG says, by subtly moving the focus over a number of years onto immigration, foreigners, austerity and what they term as a non-elected legislature - as if they themselves have ever been elected - they have shaped the debate, convincing vast areas of this island nation that the old enemy - Europe - is at the bottom of all our problems. They have fanned the flames to the point where it's now a curious alliance of the wealthy, the elderly, the under-educated and the under-privileged (brutal but in essence, true) who now carry the fight.

Sadly, I don't think this thing can be stopped. More worryingly, I can't see how the UK can be mended.

Apologies if I offend anyone with this view.


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Post #501936  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:26 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
...For example we voted againest airline passengers getting compensation for delayed flights. I mean wtf
Yes that is a really big issue in the scheme of things...

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Post #501937  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:27 pm 
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The thing is people say that the division within the country will end which it will but certainly not in my lifetime.

A small majority voting for leave that definitely were not voting for no deal and now low and behold it’s happening.

If you can have a referendum about the EU why can’t you have one for no deal. However we’re leaving with a deal now with some extreme consequences about to occur. (Try selling grain abroad with a 20% tariff)

That resentment will never leave people.

I have Scots in my family who largely voted to remain part of the UK in the independence vote. Now if the vote was taken I think they would be pro leaving because our government is a mess.

The country will never be the same


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Post #501938  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:29 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
...For example we voted againest airline passengers getting compensation for delayed flights. I mean wtf
Yes that is a really big issue in the scheme of things...

Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you.

How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family ? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?


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Post #501939  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:40 pm 
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DHD wrote:
I find the subject immensely depressing and sad.

In my view, the whole Brexit agenda has been foisted upon us by an elite group of very rich and influential toffs, many of whose ancestors came over on the boat with Willie the Conq. This thing has been brewing for years. These are people who don't need Europe - indeed they need for nothing. They have never experienced deprivation in any form and they have no fear whatever of 'consequences'. They thrive on uncertainty; it's an engine of prosperity for those in a position of financial strength who can take advantage of the opportunities a broken economy will offer. All they fear is transparency in the form of what they see as unwarranted governmental intrusion into their financial dealings and holdings, for which the EU has been pressing for some time now.

As TG says, by subtly moving the focus over a number of years onto immigration, foreigners, austerity and what they term as a non-elected legislature - as if they themselves have ever been elected - they have shaped the debate, convincing vast areas of this island nation that the old enemy - Europe - is at the bottom of all our problems. They have fanned the flames to the point where it's now a curious alliance of the wealthy, the elderly, the under-educated and the under-privileged (brutal but in essence, true) who now carry the fight.

Sadly, I don't think this thing can be stopped. More worryingly, I can't see how the UK can be mended.

Apologies if I offend anyone with this view.
Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

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Post #501940  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:58 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Yes that is a really big issue in the scheme of things...
Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

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Post #501941  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:05 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:
I find the subject immensely depressing and sad.

In my view, the whole Brexit agenda has been foisted upon us by an elite group of very rich and influential toffs, many of whose ancestors came over on the boat with Willie the Conq. This thing has been brewing for years. These are people who don't need Europe - indeed they need for nothing. They have never experienced deprivation in any form and they have no fear whatever of 'consequences'. They thrive on uncertainty; it's an engine of prosperity for those in a position of financial strength who can take advantage of the opportunities a broken economy will offer. All they fear is transparency in the form of what they see as unwarranted governmental intrusion into their financial dealings and holdings, for which the EU has been pressing for some time now.

As TG says, by subtly moving the focus over a number of years onto immigration, foreigners, austerity and what they term as a non-elected legislature - as if they themselves have ever been elected - they have shaped the debate, convincing vast areas of this island nation that the old enemy - Europe - is at the bottom of all our problems. They have fanned the flames to the point where it's now a curious alliance of the wealthy, the elderly, the under-educated and the under-privileged (brutal but in essence, true) who now carry the fight.

Sadly, I don't think this thing can be stopped. More worryingly, I can't see how the UK can be mended.

Apologies if I offend anyone with this view.
Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


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Post #501942  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:06 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:

The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union



“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?


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Post #501943  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:08 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.


So you can’t answer, ok gotcha

You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.


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Post #501944  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:11 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:

Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


Nor, I’d suggest, is it the Brexit that those who voted ‘out’ expected.


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Post #501945  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:11 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Or, the Brexit referendum was put forward by an old Etonian and his chums who were arrogantly sure that the people would do as they were told and vote to remain in the European Union. How dare they make a different choice? How dare they subvert aeons of history (actually just over 40 years) and revert to a independent position previously familiar o the people of the UK? I struggle to understand why the EU has come to be seen as some sort of paradise we we should never leave, as if life is not possible outside of it. Yes to Europeans, no to the EU!

There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


A referendum is an advisory vote, nobody even mentioned no deal. An advisory vote is not a licence to wreck and divide the country at any cost.


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Post #501946  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:31 pm 
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DHD wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:

The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union



“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?
My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.

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Post #501947  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:44 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:

“The big and the powerful” - is that really how you see us Old Man?
My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.


Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?


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Post #501948  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:52 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

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Post #501949  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:55 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
You clearly dislike him enough to exaggerate the problems about him. He has had plenty of good games. Prone to bad errors, I accept that. But not as bad as you try make out.


He’s about as useful as an ejector seat on a helicopter.

:laughing7: :laughing7:
I agree. He may turn out to be a decent player somewhere else but enough is enough.

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Post #501950  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:56 pm 
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DHD wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
My clumsy wording - what I meant is the big and powerful institutions and people benefit most from the EU more than the ordinary people.


Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?
My bet is that we will never leave the EU, so fear not!

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Post #501951  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:03 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


A referendum is an advisory vote, nobody even mentioned no deal. An advisory vote is not a licence to wreck and divide the country at any cost.

Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't.
Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility.
The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.


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Post #501952  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:04 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
There was a vote. The result of the referendum should be honoured by the politicians. Even though it wasn't the result they expected.


A referendum is an advisory vote, nobody even mentioned no deal. An advisory vote is not a licence to wreck and divide the country at any cost.
Yes the position of referenda in our "constitution" is contentious, especially to those who lose the argument, but if you think not honouring the result of the largest one ever held in our history will heal divisions, then you are in for a rude awakening. If we don't Brexit - as I expect - then all bets are off about democracy in our basically decent country.

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Post #501953  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:06 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Fine give me an example of how the EU has made a decision we objected to that has affected you. How will having left the EU improve life for you and your family? What is the 1st thing you're hoping our govt does that the EU were preventing it from doing ?
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.

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Post #501954  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:08 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain?


Your saying exactly that. It’s a gateway for trade and movement. A platform. We have the 7th largest gdp in the world. However because the government are helmets your saying we should leave without being able to identify a logical reason for leaving.

I’m not having anymore kids so therefore I won’t bother getting laid anymore.


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Post #501955  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:08 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
I never wanted to be in the EEC, let alone the EU. Tell me exactly how being part of the EU has benefited ordinary people of the UK in terms of social housing, education, health and social equality, all of which have deteriorated in our years of EU membership. If being in it helped improve any of those vital issues then it could be worth it, but the EU seems to play no part in the things that matter to the mass of our population. The big and the powerful do best out of the European Union - bit like the football really.

I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.


Precisely.


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Post #501956  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:11 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Would it have been an 'advisory' vote if the result had gone the other way - no it wouldn't. Politicians both in the EU and here in Britain have been doing their best to stop Brexit from happening - it was supposed to happen in April (or was it March - I lose track). This is why 'no deal' is now a possibility. The electorate were pretty clear on what they were voting on - do you want to remain in the EU or leave it. The vote should be honoured and our politicians (public servants, remember) should be doing all in their power to help the country move forward in a positive manner.
I agree. If we are not careful the failure of Parliament to implement the result of something it asked the people to vote on will weaken Parliament itself.

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Post #501957  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:16 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
So you can’t answer, ok gotcha. You’ve pretty much said exactly what I referred to earlier, you think housing, education and social equality are being determined by the EU rather than our own government. Brilliant it’s just not there for that, it enables the free movement of goods, people and services. It’s not a magic wand if you have a bunch of utter helmets in your government.
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.


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Post #501958  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:19 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
DHD wrote:

Well when the UK - or what’s left of it - conclude that promised trade deal with Trump’s America, I suggest you prepare yourself for the interventions of USA’s much bigger and much more powerful institutions by assuming the position. Might be a bit of pain but it shouldn’t hurt for long.

Well, that’s what we’re promised, aren’t we?
My bet is that we will never leave the EU, so fear not!

Well that is your best hope.

Your view that not implementing the referendum shakes democracy to the roots makes no sense to me.

It is parliament that is the sovereign institution. How can you think that the way MPs vote must be bound by a referendum result? If you think your MP has done something wrong, vote him or her out.

What has happened here is that the TORIES have screwed this up completely. They played a game that backfired completely on them.

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Post #501959  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:25 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
I'm surprised you think the EU rather than your own politicians (and by extension those who vote them into power) is to blame for these things.
I haven't blamed the EU at all. I have simply said it has in almost half a century made minimal positive impact on the key issues facing ordinary people in our country. You could say that in that respect it has been irrelevant to us, except for the huge resources that have been diverted from the UK supporting the EU policies. Of course our own politicians bear the ultimate responsibility for domestic matters, but if the membership of the EU can't make a big difference in solving our major issues, then why not try something else? If we Brexit we are not leaving paradise.

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Post #501960  Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:31 pm 
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DHD wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Actually I am saying the opposite. If the EU had any major, determining positive impact on those issues as far as the ordinary person is concerned, it might just be worth staying in it, but as it clearly is unable to do anything in those key areas of our lives, then why remain? To my mind, if after almost half a century the EU can't help us build more homes; better educate our children and greatly influence our health or social equality, then it is not worth it. The EU remains an institution whose main priority is about protecting business, increasingly centralising political power, with the occasional nod to some social or environmental aspects. What it doesn't do is meet the fundamental needs of our people. We need to do that ourselves, helmets or no helmets.

But all the stuff you’re quoting there is the prerogative of national governments. The EU has never intruded beyond setting some entirely reasonable and pan-European agreed standards that establish baseline human requirements for an acceptable standard of living.

It’s the UK government’s responsibility to provide for its people in the areas you mention. The fact that that hasn’t happened is the responsibility of successive administrations, not Europe.

Indeed! The EU didn't elect Thatcher or Blair. We are seeing this terrible scapegoatism in South Africa too. Everything from crime to unemployment is blamed on 'undocumented immigrants'.

Who are these men of lust, greed, and glory?
Rip off the masks and let see
But that's no right oh no, what's the story?
But there's you and there's me

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