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       Injuries                    Steve Gleiber



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Post #505801  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 4:39 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Darren wrote:
Funnily enough, I posted on Twitter that I thought Emery wasn't the right guy after Sunday's shitshow. A scouser mate of mine said it took Klopp three years to get close and we should be patient. Whilst I agree with that sentiment, I have this nagging sense that we won't get close to the title with Emery. I think as Bernard and a couple of others suggested, his remit is one of transitioning us back into the CL places.


I agree Emery won’t get 3 years. I fully expect him to complete next season then the club deciding against taking up the option for year 3 in his contract.

Some of our fans are behaving like Chelsea supporters now moaning about all and sundry and it’s evident he won’t get the time. You can only scream about showing passion so much but passion can only get you so far if you don’t have the technicians in the team.

I think it’s not possible for him to be here for a long time. For a few reasons but mostly that bar 5 players he needs to move on his entire squad of playing personnel and replace it on a minimal budget.

Then consider that we don’t have a director of football, no Gazidis, no Mislintat. It’s an equation that doesn’t add up in the timescales required.

At the end of the next season it might be best for the club to recruit an ex player like Henry or Vieira who would get far more patience and understanding from the supporters and media than Emery has because of their status as legends.

I think this is part of it, Emery doesn’t feel very ”arsenal” to us right now so it’s easier to be more critical when things are going badly.

If my memory is correct, Klopp did make his mark on Liverpool playing style pretty much immediately. Can we say the same about Emery?

I'm all for giving him the benefit of the doubt for another season or two. But I think the comparison with Klopp is a bit wishful.

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Post #505802  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:09 pm 
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dec wrote:
Wilshere? Ah c'mon lads. We had no chance of getting a big fee for him. He's been crocked for years.

.


You could have got a fee of 5 to 10 million for him, point wasn’t about him specifically but the host of players walking out the door with no fees


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Post #505803  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

I agree Emery won’t get 3 years. I fully expect him to complete next season then the club deciding against taking up the option for year 3 in his contract.

Some of our fans are behaving like Chelsea supporters now moaning about all and sundry and it’s evident he won’t get the time. You can only scream about showing passion so much but passion can only get you so far if you don’t have the technicians in the team.

I think it’s not possible for him to be here for a long time. For a few reasons but mostly that bar 5 players he needs to move on his entire squad of playing personnel and replace it on a minimal budget.

Then consider that we don’t have a director of football, no Gazidis, no Mislintat. It’s an equation that doesn’t add up in the timescales required.

At the end of the next season it might be best for the club to recruit an ex player like Henry or Vieira who would get far more patience and understanding from the supporters and media than Emery has because of their status as legends.

I think this is part of it, Emery doesn’t feel very ”arsenal” to us right now so it’s easier to be more critical when things are going badly.

If my memory is correct, Klopp did make his mark on Liverpool playing style pretty much immediately. Can we say the same about Emery?

I'm all for giving him the benefit of the doubt for another season or two. But I think the comparison with Klopp is a bit wishful.


Don’t you remember his first 2 seasons? He finished 8th in his first season

Their defence was all over the place like we are and they were doing the whole “outscoring thing” with their opponents as we do.

It took them a couple of years to get back on track


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Post #505804  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 6:27 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Decaf wrote:
If my memory is correct, Klopp did make his mark on Liverpool playing style pretty much immediately. Can we say the same about Emery?

I'm all for giving him the benefit of the doubt for another season or two. But I think the comparison with Klopp is a bit wishful.


Don’t you remember his first 2 seasons? He finished 8th in his first season

Their defence was all over the place like we are and they were doing the whole “outscoring thing” with their opponents as we do.

It took them a couple of years to get back on track


That isn't the point.

I read somewhere that, statistically, Emery and Sari are right near the top in terms of first seasons in the prem (certainly better than the likes of Ferguson and Klopp, and similar to Maurinho and Pep). However, the point is that with Klopp and Fergusson there was a real buzz about their appointments.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... ol-manager

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Post #505805  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 6:33 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

Don’t you remember his first 2 seasons? He finished 8th in his first season

Their defence was all over the place like we are and they were doing the whole “outscoring thing” with their opponents as we do.

It took them a couple of years to get back on track


I read somewhere that, statistically, Emery and Sari are right near the top in terms of first seasons in the prem (certainly better than the likes of Ferguson and Klopp, and similar to Maurinho and Pep). However, the point is that with Klopp and Fergusson there was a real buzz about their appointments.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... ol-manager


Not sure that was the original point but yes I mean he’s a far better media character and story than Emery.

Speaks great English, is quite funny, his touchline antics are entertaining. He’s a far easier character to get behind. I think Liverpool fans bought into his project because of his character and the way he communicated.

I’m not sure that is the case with Emery who unfortunately isnt fluent in the lingo but critically can’t impart what his objectives are on the fans. A harder character to get behind undoubtably


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Post #505806  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:32 pm 
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Barca 1-0 Liverpool. Great goal from Suarez.
And so called world best CB Van Dijk could see suarez’s run right in front of him and didn’t follow him and allowed him the shot at goal.

Obviously VvD is a fantastic defender but if that is mustafi all you would hear is how mustafi has not tracked his runner again. I suppose when you’ve put enough good stuff in the bank you don’t get criticised for those mistakes


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Post #505807  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:35 pm 
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Messi's looking electric tonight.


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Post #505808  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Liverpool look like they carry a threat too good chance missed by Mane. You'd think they need an away goal tonight.


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Post #505809  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:47 pm 
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Rich wrote:

Obviously VvD is a fantastic defender but if that is mustafi all you would hear is how mustafi has not tracked his runner again. I suppose when you’ve put enough good stuff in the bank you don’t get criticised for those mistakes


I dunno you just look at the pass from alba. Superb.

One of those inviting passes ahead of the player begging to be smashed in.

It’s not quite the same as Mustafi walking on the pitch with his flies undone from the start then getting his a****** podgered by Zaha with no lube


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Post #505810  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 8:36 pm 
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Barcelona looking more interested in keeping a clean sheet than pressing for the second, Liverpool pressing hard but without troubling Ter Stegen too much, so far at least. Huge last 20 minutes coming up which could determine the outcome of the tie.

And there's the second, Liverpool hit with the sucker punch.


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Post #505811  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Messi, bloody hell. Absolute peach.
:53big-emoticons:


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Post #505812  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Liverpool picked off 3-0. Given a lesson by Barca. Barca should have put the tie to bed they had 2 3v1’s in added time and couldn’t score the 4th.
Can’t see anyone but Barca winning the champions league this season and for that I am very very glad


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Post #505813  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:07 pm 
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This one is done and dusted. No matter what miracles Tottenham perform in the 2nd leg, I can be fairly confident they won't win the ECL.

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Post #505814  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:28 pm 
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In a one-off game, as the final will be, anything can happen. Anyway, he hopefully won't if Tottenham do get through but who's to say Messi won't pull his hamstring and miss it? It may be unlikely, but it's certainly not impossible.


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Post #505815  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 10:23 pm 
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Apparently Wenger criticised Van Dyke on TV for the way he lost his man. The person who presided over assembling the worst Arsenal defence that I have ever seen has pure hide to even mention defence critically.

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Post #505816  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 11:07 pm 
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I don't think either of the CL semi's is done and dusted yet. Barca are not always that good away from home as PSG once proved. And Ajax have often played better away in the big CL games. Would be very happy with a Barca Ajax final.

Unlike Bernard I do like Messi and this year some of his goals are just amazing. It is a pleasure to watch him in action. Loved the free kick.

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Post #505817  Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 11:50 pm 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Apparently Wenger criticised Van Dyke on TV for the way he lost his man. The person who presided over assembling the worst Arsenal defence that I have ever seen has pure hide to even mention defence critically.


What Wenger said abt VVD's positioning and non-reaction was really mild... he even credited the ball played in as difficult to defend against.


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Post #505818  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 3:41 am 
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I assume that there was a national w@nkfest as you all say, when Man Utd won the title in '92 after many years ('67 was it?, too bothered to look it up). I assume obviously because I wasn't into football at the time and being the biggest club in the country, I assume as much.

That said, I assume there will be a vomit inducing celebration going on if Liverpool wins it for the first time since '90 (that info I knew already :58big-emoticons: :58big-emoticons: ). Its going to be nauseating.

So, i'm at a quandary. I hate seeing Man City winning again because of their money but Liverpool winning it will be tough to take as well.

If City wins it and they win it over the next season or two, something I feared may happen and that is that the league may look like the SPL to some extent. If that happens and they win 3 or 4 of the trot, lose one then another few years winning it again, it will be one of the worst things for the league. Viewership might drop off somewhat. It might not, but a case can be made that it could hurt the league. If that happens, then its at that time I can see the governing body(bodies) take action limiting the impact of financial doping of clubs.

City simply have the money to last the marathon that a season is. Liverpool has been fortunate with injuries and that is one of the primary reasons they are still in it. City's bench could start for almost any side.

If City dominates the league, I would guess that the league cup will take on bigger importance. I contend that it does already when compared how seriously it was taken when I became a fan.

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Post #505819  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:55 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
I don't think either of the CL semi's is done and dusted yet. Barca are not always that good away from home as PSG once proved. And Ajax have often played better away in the big CL games. Would be very happy with a Barca Ajax final.

Unlike Bernard I do like Messi and this year some of his goals are just amazing. It is a pleasure to watch him in action. Loved the free kick.

I’m not sure how anyone can see Messi other than the greatest player of all time.


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Post #505820  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:44 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
...Unlike Bernard I do like Messi and this year some of his goals are just amazing. It is a pleasure to watch him in action. Loved the free kick.
Indeed. What is there to dislike in Messi? A thrilling player with the heart of a lion and magical skills. So often he is the difference between Barca and their opponents. We have been blessed to see him perform.

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Post #505821  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:53 am 
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Rich wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
I don't think either of the CL semi's is done and dusted yet. Barca are not always that good away from home as PSG once proved. And Ajax have often played better away in the big CL games. Would be very happy with a Barca Ajax final.

Unlike Bernard I do like Messi and this year some of his goals are just amazing. It is a pleasure to watch him in action. Loved the free kick.

I’m not sure how anyone can see Messi other than the greatest player of all time.

Because there have been some magnificent players before him. Pele didn't earn the accolade as greatest of all time for nothing. Maradona was incredible at his peak. There are plenty of football fans who believe that Ronaldo is better than Messi. For my part, I rate Messi as the best I have ever seen. Pele was before my time.

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Post #505822  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:34 am 
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dec wrote:
Rich wrote:
I’m not sure how anyone can see Messi other than the greatest player of all time.

Because there have been some magnificent players before him. Pele didn't earn the accolade as greatest of all time for nothing. Maradona was incredible at his peak. There are plenty of football fans who believe that Ronaldo is better than Messi. For my part, I rate Messi as the best I have ever seen. Pele was before my time.

I understand the argument that a) you can't really judge players before your time and b) it is difficult to compare players across different generations.......but sometimes you have to nail your colours to the mast and for me Messi is the greatest ever. The rate at which he scores, the quality of the goals, the rate at which he assists, the unbelievable technical ability, the balance, the shear fear he strikes in opponents.......and one thing that stands him above Ronaldo for me is I don't think he needs his teammates as much.
Ronaldo has transformed himself in to a deadly striker as he's got older but he still needs that service. Messi has actually started to play deeper as he's got older and he dictates and controls entire games before stepping up and winning them.


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Post #505823  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:37 am 
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Since 2011 only Aguero, Vardy and Hazard have scored more goals vs the premier league top 6 than Messi.
Every top 6 prem player has played 80 games vs top 6 teams in those 8 seasons. Messi has only been able to play top 6 teams if and when Barcelona draw them in Europe.

I think the argument about whether he could cut it on a cold wet tuesday night in Stoke can be put to bed. He regularly puts the premier leagues best teams to the sword - he would totally demolish cardiff and huddersfield


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Post #505824  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:46 am 
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Thought Liverpool played as well as I've seen an away side play in Barcelona but I do think Klopp made a mistake putting Winajldum in a false 9 position. It shows how fortunate Liverpool have been to have Salah/Mane/Firminho pretty much 100% available for the past 2 seasons. They have nothing like their quality after them.
Similar in defence with VvD, Robertson, Trent, Matip - Liverpool have fewer first team defenders than us. They only really have 4 CB and one of those is their deputy RB, and they have Moreno at deputy left back.
It is testament to Liverpool and the players that they have remained fit and also not looking tired. Robertson has played non stop for about 18 months and still bombs up and down that left wing.


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Post #505825  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:00 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
...Unlike Bernard I do like Messi and this year some of his goals are just amazing. It is a pleasure to watch him in action. Loved the free kick.
Indeed. What is there to dislike in Messi? A thrilling player with the heart of a lion and magical skills. So often he is the difference between Barca and their opponents. We have been blessed to see him perform.

We have been blessed to see them all perform against Arsenal too. I’ve seen all the great players of our era in the flesh and that’s a real privilege as a football fan; Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Buffon, Xavi, Bergkamp, Iniesta, Cannavaro, Ljungberg etc. All masters of their craft.

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Post #505826  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:09 am 
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It will be interesting to see what happens with Chelsea this summer.
Possibly a new manager
Still facing a transfer ban
Sell hazard now for big money without being able to replace him - or lose him for nothing next year
Being forced to promote their young players due to the transfer ban - they have some fantastic talent and have done for some years, Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, Ampadu
Pulisic signing
They may have to recall some of their army of loan players to actually play in the first 11, you forget the players they've signed - not worked out and just been able to ship them off on loan and sign another £40m player - Bakayoko, Kennedy, Rahman, Batshuayi, Morata, Abraham, Moses, Zouma, Kalas, Eduardo. You could make a competent new Premiership squad from their loan players alone


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Post #505827  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 8:27 am 
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Darren wrote:
We have been blessed to see them all perform against Arsenal too. I’ve seen all the great players of our era in the flesh and that’s a real privilege as a football fan; Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Buffon, Xavi, Bergkamp, Iniesta, Cannavaro, Ljungberg etc. All masters of their craft.

You forgot to mention Wiltord if you're mentioning someone else on your list.

To be honest it's the continual hero worship and fawning over Messi that I find so revoltingly creepy. Can't wait till he retires. Good riddance will be my reaction. The Messi fanboys can then move onto someone else. Having said that, if Barcelona play Tottenham in the final I hope Messi has one of his good days.

But anyway, I'm with Glenn Hoddle on this issue. Maradona is the best I've seen.


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Post #505828  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:14 am 
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David Seaman was on the Alan brazil radio show on talksport. He was with Pyet, Anderton and another spurs guy I think.
Brazil was poking fun saying he felt sorry for Seaman being surrounded by Spurs men, then poked fun at the Nayim goal etc. Seaman just laughed and sai "I'll bring my trophies out soon"
No more needs to be said


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Post #505829  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am 
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Rich wrote:
David Seaman was on the Alan brazil radio show on talksport. He was with Pyet, Anderton and another spurs guy I think.
Brazil was poking fun saying he felt sorry for Seaman being surrounded by Spurs men, then poked fun at the Nayim goal etc. Seaman just laughed and sai "I'll bring my trophies out soon"
No more needs to be said

Great put down.

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Post #505830  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:42 am 
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Darren wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Indeed. What is there to dislike in Messi? A thrilling player with the heart of a lion and magical skills. So often he is the difference between Barca and their opponents. We have been blessed to see him perform.

We have been blessed to see them all perform against Arsenal too. I’ve seen all the great players of our era in the flesh and that’s a real privilege as a football fan; Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Buffon, Xavi, Bergkamp, Iniesta, Cannavaro, Ljungberg etc. All masters of their craft.

It didn't feel like a blessing at the time when Messi was cudgelling us... but I take your point. It was quite magnificent.

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Post #505831  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:51 am 
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Darren wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Indeed. What is there to dislike in Messi? A thrilling player with the heart of a lion and magical skills. So often he is the difference between Barca and their opponents. We have been blessed to see him perform.

We have been blessed to see them all perform against Arsenal too. I’ve seen all the great players of our era in the flesh and that’s a real privilege as a football fan; Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Buffon, Xavi, Bergkamp, Iniesta, Cannavaro, Ljungberg etc. All masters of their craft.

Indeed you have been lucky to see them live. The TV is never quite as good as being present. Still some of the goals from Messi this year have just left me open mouthed. I would hate to see our team at this very moment play against Messi.

On to the Valencia game- I wonder whether we will turn up?

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Post #505832  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:14 am 
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Darren wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Indeed. What is there to dislike in Messi? A thrilling player with the heart of a lion and magical skills. So often he is the difference between Barca and their opponents. We have been blessed to see him perform.

We have been blessed to see them all perform against Arsenal too. I’ve seen all the great players of our era in the flesh and that’s a real privilege as a football fan; Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Buffon, Xavi, Bergkamp, Iniesta, Cannavaro, Ljungberg etc. All masters of their craft.


Every sport has this argument and its great to be online or better yet, in a pub and hear the arguments. I will say this, I would respect the opinion of those who have seen all the players moreso than those that haven't. I have only seen Pele in youtube videos. I recall Maradonna during the World Cup only in the '80s because that's the only time Americans watched football. So I had no benefit of seeing him for the club as well as for Argentina other than the World Cup. And we must also take in to consideration that even if you grew up when Pele was at his best, you still didn't see him much if at all playing week in, week out for Santos as well as Maradonna for the club.

Then we have to take into eras, the pitch, refereeing, rules changes, etc. As you all know Pele wasn't allowed to play club football outside of Brazil. Had he not been lablled a national treasure, its pretty much a certainty he'd be plying his trade in Europe, my guess for either of the Portuguese or Spanish giants at the time. We can play 'what ifs' and imagine Pele in his prime playing for Benfica or Real Madrid in the European cup. Perhaps that would have elevated him beyond any comparison?

It's a heated debate in the NBA. Michael Jordan is tantamount to Pele and there was no issue for some time that he was the GOAT (Greatest Of All time). Now, its a heated debate whether Kobe Bryant or LeBron James was better. The old school fans would say Kareem Abdul-Jabaar was the greatest (and a strong case can be made). Wilt Chamberlain was said to probably be the best all around athlete for his generation.

I assume cricket has this argument to some extent, depending on the position. Rugby as well perhaps. But to say Messi is the best ever, cute and dry, no debate is to a large extent disrespectful to the past and I would guess most ,not all, but most of the people that say that have never seen Maradonna in his prime and certainly not Pele.

I've heard some CRonaldo fans say that he is a better all around player than Messi. Messi tops in scoring and dribbling but some argue that CRonaldo shades him in set pieces both kicking and heading (heading for sure for obvious reasons. Cronaldo's fans site other factors for him being the best all around player. Also, CRonaldo has shown he can dominate in 3 completely different leagues. And the he is primarily the only reason Portugal gets as far as they do in international competitions. Messi's club dominance has often times not translated to the national team where he is surrounded by great players.

It could be argued that were they more professional some of the modern Brazilian greats (Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Adriano) could possibly be considered.

Anyway, its a fun debate, I will toot my own horn :toothy9: and say I was probably the first post on him when I saw him in a youth tournament and said I will be accused of being over the top and say he was 'Pele-esque' in the competition. I think it was U17 competition. Can't recall exactly.

Both are unplayable many times but I'd have to say Messi at his best seems a wee bit more unplayable than CRonaldo.

I'm glad I've had the opportunity to see Messi as well as tons of others.

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Post #505833  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:28 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:

Don’t you remember his first 2 seasons? He finished 8th in his first season

Their defence was all over the place like we are and they were doing the whole “outscoring thing” with their opponents as we do.

It took them a couple of years to get back on track


Actually Klopp did far worse in his first season than Emery is doing.

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Post #505834  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
I don't think either of the CL semi's is done and dusted yet. Barca are not always that good away from home as PSG once proved. And Ajax have often played better away in the big CL games. Would be very happy with a Barca Ajax final.

Unlike Bernard I do like Messi and this year some of his goals are just amazing. It is a pleasure to watch him in action. Loved the free kick.

I’m not sure how anyone can see Messi other than the greatest player of all time.

Pele for me Rich...


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Post #505835  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Andy Green wrote:
Rich wrote:
I’m not sure how anyone can see Messi other than the greatest player of all time.

Pele for me Rich...


I never saw Pele live. All most of us ever saw of him was on TV at the World Cup every 4 years. He did play several times in England as part of the Santos travelling circus, at places like Stoke, Sheffield, Portsmouth and Villa. Odd to think how football has progressed but in those days, the only way Santos and Pele could make any money was by playing friendlies against any club who’d pay their appearance fee. Santos used to tour like the Harlem Globetrotters and get paid by the host club in readies, with Pele as their star (only) attraction trousering his slice.

I saw Cruyff live a few times and Maradona, as well as all the subsequent superstars. I mention those two because I thought Cruyff was the greatest I’d ever seen, but Maradona was better. But neither were as good as Messi whom I’m blessed to have seen live quite a few times now; though he’s broken my heart on more than one occasion, he has never disappointed me.


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Post #505836  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:36 pm 
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Messi


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Post #505837  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Darren wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Indeed. What is there to dislike in Messi? A thrilling player with the heart of a lion and magical skills. So often he is the difference between Barca and their opponents. We have been blessed to see him perform.

We have been blessed to see them all perform against Arsenal too. I’ve seen all the great players of our era in the flesh and that’s a real privilege as a football fan; Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Buffon, Xavi, Bergkamp, Iniesta, Cannavaro, Ljungberg etc. All masters of their craft.
No mention of Wiltord?

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Post #505838  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:30 pm 
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Gunfire wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

Don’t you remember his first 2 seasons? He finished 8th in his first season

Their defence was all over the place like we are and they were doing the whole “outscoring thing” with their opponents as we do.

It took them a couple of years to get back on track


Actually Klopp did far worse in his first season than Emery is doing.

He might end up doing better than Klopp this season too, if Klopp ends up empty handed and we win the Europa :laughing7: (touch wood)

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Post #505839  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:34 pm 
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"Barcelona loanee Denis Suarez will also not feature again this season due to persistent groin trouble."

I think you could say that about a few of our players actually.

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Post #505840  Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 7:01 pm 
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Guendouzi is a big gamble in a game of this magnitude. Fingers crossed he has a great game.


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