Fixtures March 31st - Manchester City - Etihad Stadium - 3:30 Pm

Kick-Off

       Injuries                 Steve Gleiber



Get the Latest Post Go to the Bottom of Page It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:55 am

All times are UTC


  


Reply to topic

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], bubblechris, warrior and 141 guests

 
Post #484241  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 18363

Bored wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
[

I'm not sure I agree that it's only recently he transformed into a increasingly dysfunctional manager, I think he's always been the same guy but the formula that worked to bring such huge success in the early years didn't later on because time had changed and he didn't change style.


Greetings Top Gun. I don't think I said he only recently transformed into a dysfunctional manager. My guess is that the move to the new stadium was the turning point in the teams downward trajectory. However, its hard to be precise because the decline has been very gradual yet clear over time. In hindsight what seems most obvious in terms of his team development was the move away from recruiting dominant, strong players particularly in midfield. Is that an example of Wenger changing his approach albeit for the worst?!


Hi mate. You said increasingly dysfunctional, seems recent. For a long time our transfer policy has been very negative and reactive and I think we just acquired player who were of a certain build because that's who was available. Then as an afterthought he now realised he needs power and pace hence signing Aubameyang and Xhaka.

The tippy tappy seems a result of lack of direct coaching and lack of Confidence on the part of the players to play a decisive final ball.


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484242  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:53 pm
Posts: 3412
Location: Over here

TOP GUN wrote:
Nope, it's a contributor but not the overall reason.


It was a bloody huge 'contributor', do you really think a large percentage of those early signings were his first choices, or just maybe he had to take a bit of a punt because he was unable to secure his preferred targets?

_________________
"You've got to go out on a limb sometimes because that's where the fruit is."


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484243  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:53 pm
Posts: 3412
Location: Over here

kiwipete wrote:
Not at all Parker .....he inherited rock solid defenders who knew their main task was to DEFEND , then the best centre half in the world at the time Sol Campbell decided to join us , sure he bought well Anelka , Henry , Pires , Vieira so no -one should poo hoo his achievements for that period but a case could be made with Bergkamp , Overmars , Pires they were fabulous artisans already .

no amount of Wengerisation [ make Bernard happy ] could alter that .

Imagine telling Bergkamp he should play the rubbish little triangles we specialise in these days

Where he has totally lost the plot of late is not due to lack of investment

He has bought midgets and decided no goal should be scored before a four thousand pass build up .


The lack of investment was more an historical point and an important one, I'm sure we would be in a different place now if the Club had backed him more a decade ago. Agree of late he has amassed an inordinate amount of dross. My gripe was more with the nonsense about his earlier incarnation, remember AW was the one that converted Lauren into a very effective full back; promoted Cole to the first team; persuaded Campbell to make the leap of faith; turned Toure into a cb and capped it off with the fruit loop between the sticks. I would say that was quite a demonstration of how to build a defence.

_________________
"You've got to go out on a limb sometimes because that's where the fruit is."


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484244  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:33 pm
Posts: 7011
Location: SE9

Goonie wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
Been reading Marcus McGuane's comments after his Barca debut about how he waited for his chance and it never came. And how Wenger never spoke to him in his many years at the club.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Nelson walk like McGuane and Chris Willock.

Hmm... so just because they feel they deserve to be given a chance, Wenger should play them?

McGuane plays in a variety of positions, but particularly defensive midfield. We are very average in this position at first team level and presumably it was the likes of Coquelin and Elneny keeping him from progressing a bit quicker. I can't really see the wisdom in that.
Nelson has had some chances this season to play, and I don't like petulant reactions from the bench,
BUT
What's the point of a youth system if you let the best prospects walk? How can a player like McGuane come out and say that he never had as much as a conversation with Wenger in many years at the club? This is a player good enough to attract Barcelona btw, not some jumped up no mark. Nelson has the potential to be a top quality wide attacker, something we're crying out for - so get him on the pitch as often as you can, I say.
3 up at home to Watford in a league season that's dead anyway seems like a no brainer.


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484245  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 18363

Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Nope, it's a contributor but not the overall reason.


It was a bloody huge 'contributor', do you really think a large percentage of those early signings were his first choices, or just maybe he had to take a bit of a punt because he was unable to secure his preferred targets?

He didn't have super bucks but I recall he waited 2 years to sign chamakh on a free who was dogshit and gave him a 60k a week contract and also turned down alonso from Liverpool because he deemed him not worth the extra 500k they wanted.


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484246  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 18363

Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
kiwipete wrote:
Not at all Parker .....he inherited rock solid defenders who knew their main task was to DEFEND , then the best centre half in the world at the time Sol Campbell decided to join us , sure he bought well Anelka , Henry , Pires , Vieira so no -one should poo hoo his achievements for that period but a case could be made with Bergkamp , Overmars , Pires they were fabulous artisans already .

no amount of Wengerisation [ make Bernard happy ] could alter that .

Imagine telling Bergkamp he should play the rubbish little triangles we specialise in these days

Where he has totally lost the plot of late is not due to lack of investment

He has bought midgets and decided no goal should be scored before a four thousand pass build up .


The lack of investment was more an historical point and an important one, I'm sure we would be in a different place now if the Club had backed him more a decade ago. Agree of late he has amassed an inordinate amount of dross. My gripe was more with the nonsense about his earlier incarnation, remember AW was the one that converted Lauren into a very effective full back; promoted Cole to the first team; persuaded Campbell to make the leap of faith; turned Toure into a cb and capped it off with the fruit loop between the sticks. I would say that was quite a demonstration of how to build a defence.


He signed Lauren to play right midfield it was fortuitous he adapted.

He wanted to sell Cole to palace till Bergkamp told him it was a mistake in doing so

Dein signed Campbell not Wenger. Read Campbell's book

Toure was a great buy whose lack of competency in defence was made up by his speed, effort and heart and the fact he had 2 world class defenders stood next to him.

Cheers


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484247  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:53 pm
Posts: 3412
Location: Over here

TOP GUN wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

The lack of investment was more an historical point and an important one, I'm sure we would be in a different place now if the Club had backed him more a decade ago. Agree of late he has amassed an inordinate amount of dross. My gripe was more with the nonsense about his earlier incarnation, remember AW was the one that converted Lauren into a very effective full back; promoted Cole to the first team; persuaded Campbell to make the leap of faith; turned Toure into a cb and capped it off with the fruit loop between the sticks. I would say that was quite a demonstration of how to build a defence.


He signed Lauren to play right midfield it was fortuitous he adapted.

He wanted to sell Cole to palace till Bergkamp told him it was a mistake in doing so

Dein signed Campbell not Wenger. Read Campbell's book

Toure was a great buy whose lack of competency in defence was made up by his speed, effort and heart and the fact he had 2 world class defenders stood next to him.

Cheers


So AW got lucky, phew

He listens to senior pros, shoot him

Campbell signed so he could play under a complete no hoper

Toure was fast, lucky break


You don't love him anymore, I get it

_________________
"You've got to go out on a limb sometimes because that's where the fruit is."


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484248  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 18363

Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

He signed Lauren to play right midfield it was fortuitous he adapted.

He wanted to sell Cole to palace till Bergkamp told him it was a mistake in doing so

Dein signed Campbell not Wenger. Read Campbell's book

Toure was a great buy whose lack of competency in defence was made up by his speed, effort and heart and the fact he had 2 world class defenders stood next to him.

Cheers


So AW got lucky, phew

He listens to senior pros, shoot him

Campbell signed so he could play under a complete no hoper

Toure was fast, lucky break


You don't love him anymore, I get it


No I'm simply saying the problems were there from the start. Not new.

Adams said years ago Wenger didn't know how to drill or coach and wasn't focussed on discipline on the pitch. This isn't a new incarnation because we was absolved of the problem when he joined.

"When I first came to Arsenal, I realised the back four were all university graduates in the art of defending. As for Tony Adams, I consider him to be a doctor of defence."

– Arsene Wenger, 1997


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484249  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:57 pm
Posts: 26425

The invincible season is rightly a beacon of a record that is going to be technically impossible to beat but very very difficult to match. However I think there are two more records that I think will stand the test of time just as well.
Going the entire season unbeaten away from home TWICE in 02 and 04 was amazing. Also scoring in every prem game of the season is a staggering record


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484250  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:58 am
Posts: 33880

I think Pep can go unbeaten during the season in the EPL. Put it this way, it wouldn't surprise me. I think both he and Mourinho are more than capable of not losing away. We haven't seen the old Mourinho yet. It remains to be seen whether he's 'lost the touch' of that boring, but very effective way of playing that got him honors.

_________________
"Never relegated, Never Will Be" :)


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484251  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:57 pm
Posts: 26425

Catching up after being away for the weekend and not sure if it has been mentioned but was that Elneny's best performance in an Arsenal shirt?


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484252  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:31 pm
Posts: 4213
Location: Turnford, Broxbourne, Herts

Rich wrote:
Catching up after being away for the weekend and not sure if it has been mentioned but was that Elneny's best performance in an Arsenal shirt?


Better than the Chelsea cup game? I missed his performance against Watford but think he deserves a spot alongside Ramsey or Jack to see how he performs.

I would like to see Xhaka given a rest sooner rather than later................


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484253  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:42 am
Posts: 12622
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

The lack of investment was more an historical point and an important one, I'm sure we would be in a different place now if the Club had backed him more a decade ago. Agree of late he has amassed an inordinate amount of dross. My gripe was more with the nonsense about his earlier incarnation, remember AW was the one that converted Lauren into a very effective full back; promoted Cole to the first team; persuaded Campbell to make the leap of faith; turned Toure into a cb and capped it off with the fruit loop between the sticks. I would say that was quite a demonstration of how to build a defence.


I don't think it's a question of lack of the club backing

Don't forget Arsene was "walking on water " back then , if he'd asked for funds even when the stadium was being built I'm sure the club would have responded .

Spending big money wasn't / isn't his style ; he's an Op Shop rummager , loves a bargain [ his grey jersey is testamant to that ]

There is less kudos in buying several semi trailers of the most expensive talent Man City style ; than picking up a disillusioned Thierry Henry on the cheap , changing his position and turning him into the world's best .

Plus I've said it before and we can all be wise after the fact ...... but our reserves with Bendtner and Co were wiping out Premier League teams in the League Cup , this led him to believe they could be seemlessly integrated into the first team and not have to spend the Big Bucks .

Currently showing at Cinema Emirates ... "Turgid Football" ..... been on for some time ; to rubbish reviews but no sign of change .

This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall .


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484254  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:42 am
Posts: 12622
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

bromley gooner wrote:
3 up at home to Watford in a league season that's dead anyway seems like a no brainer.


I'm on your team Brom , similar when that kid Neketiah saved our arses against Norwich , I'd have put an arm around his shoulders and said "Get your good gear ready , you're in the first team next week " .... imagine what that would have done for his confidence .


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484255  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:06 am
Posts: 16350

TOP GUN wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

It was a bloody huge 'contributor', do you really think a large percentage of those early signings were his first choices, or just maybe he had to take a bit of a punt because he was unable to secure his preferred targets?

He didn't have super bucks but I recall he waited 2 years to sign chamakh on a free who was dogshit and gave him a 60k a week contract and also turned down alonso from Liverpool because he deemed him not worth the extra 500k they wanted.

You single out Chamakh but what about Abu Diaby, Adebayor, Rosicki, van Persie, Hleb, Flamini, Eduardo, Gallas, (off the top of my head)? Wenger made some very shrewd purchases in the seasons after 2004. The fact the we were so financially tight meant that we tended to persist with players who were not quite fitting and not to replace players with long term injuries (and were we so unlucky with injuries).

And we suffered because Wenger's reputation for unearthing talent led to lots of our players being tapped up.

So we did remarkably well in the transfer market but did suffer from having one hand tied behind our back.

Things only really went pear-shaped in about 2010.

_________________
Hamba kakuhle, Madiba


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484256  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:06 am
Posts: 16350

TOP GUN wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

The lack of investment was more an historical point and an important one, I'm sure we would be in a different place now if the Club had backed him more a decade ago. Agree of late he has amassed an inordinate amount of dross. My gripe was more with the nonsense about his earlier incarnation, remember AW was the one that converted Lauren into a very effective full back; promoted Cole to the first team; persuaded Campbell to make the leap of faith; turned Toure into a cb and capped it off with the fruit loop between the sticks. I would say that was quite a demonstration of how to build a defence.


He signed Lauren to play right midfield it was fortuitous he adapted.

He wanted to sell Cole to palace till Bergkamp told him it was a mistake in doing so

Dein signed Campbell not Wenger. Read Campbell's book

Toure was a great buy whose lack of competency in defence was made up by his speed, effort and heart and the fact he had 2 world class defenders stood next to him.

Cheers

Surely you jest!
Wenger was brilliant at seeing how players could be moved into new roles. Not just Lauren, but Toure, Petit and Henry too. Sure, he seemingly lost the knack later.

Also, Toure did pretty well when he was 'stood' next to Cygan too, or when he was asked to play at right back. "Lack of competency in defense" is just wrong. He wasn't that great in the air but otherwise he was extremely solid and complemented Sol perfectly.

_________________
Hamba kakuhle, Madiba


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484257  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:06 am
Posts: 16350

TOP GUN wrote:
Bored wrote:
There are many reasons to want Wenger out but to refer to his 3 titles as simply 'something that happened along the way' is a bit silly. Those three titles are more than some teams have won in their entire history.
Prior to the stadium move he was a genius manager who won doubles on a budget with wonderful flair. Since then he has increasingly become a dysfunctional manager who has presided over Arsenal's slow and boring decline.


I'm not sure I agree that it's only recently he transformed into a increasingly dysfunctional manager, I think he's always been the same guy but the formula that worked to bring such huge success in the early years didn't later on because time had changed and he didn't change style.

The point I'm making isnt so much to deride his achievements which in the early years were significant and fantastic but to simply say that he's always been the same manager, same person with the same stubborn attitude and it just isn't working anymore.

Well, you misread what happened in the 2000s completely. We weren't carrying a poor manager who stumbled into the job when we were just about to have a good run because of previous good work and a number of fortuitous factors.

We were punching well above our weight for most of the decade, and this was because of Wenger.

_________________
Hamba kakuhle, Madiba


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484258  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:58 am
Posts: 33880

What strikes me as ingenuous with the press is when they try and induce drama and possibilities into things that are a pretty much a foregone conclusion.
City had the league won in the fall. If Man Utd or whomever gets a win when they drop points they state it as if it somehow puts City's title run in some sort of doubt.
The reason is obvious, they need the sales. It's just so ingenuous. Blatantly so. Are the bookies even still taking bets on City winning the title? If they are, I'd probably look into it myself, no matter what the odds, its easy money.

_________________
"Never relegated, Never Will Be" :)


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484259  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:20 am
Posts: 9123

kiwipete wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
3 up at home to Watford in a league season that's dead anyway seems like a no brainer.


I'm on your team Brom , similar when that kid Neketiah saved our arses against Norwich , I'd have put an arm around his shoulders and said "Get your good gear ready , you're in the first team next week " .... imagine what that would have done for his confidence .


If they are good enough, they will get the chance. Like Bellerin, Holding and Iwobi.


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484260  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:55 pm
Posts: 11406
Location: Singapore

bromley gooner wrote:
Goonie wrote:
Hmm... so just because they feel they deserve to be given a chance, Wenger should play them?

McGuane plays in a variety of positions, but particularly defensive midfield. We are very average in this position at first team level and presumably it was the likes of Coquelin and Elneny keeping him from progressing a bit quicker. I can't really see the wisdom in that.
Nelson has had some chances this season to play, and I don't like petulant reactions from the bench,
BUT
What's the point of a youth system if you let the best prospects walk? How can a player like McGuane come out and say that he never had as much as a conversation with Wenger in many years at the club? This is a player good enough to attract Barcelona btw, not some jumped up no mark. Nelson has the potential to be a top quality wide attacker, something we're crying out for - so get him on the pitch as often as you can, I say.
3 up at home to Watford in a league season that's dead anyway seems like a no brainer.


Wenger preferred to let Welbeck play, to rebuild his confidence. He needs Welbeck to be good again, so nobody can say he bought crap. All, or at least most, of his decisions are with his own end in mind. He is too self-centred. Unfortunately, we will not progress very much with him hanging around. I've worked in a few companies where the CEO started to make rash and desperate decisions to save their reputation. But, none turned out right. Wenger will not turn out right, even if he has another decade of Arsenal.

_________________
Onwards and Upwards!


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484261  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:55 pm
Posts: 11406
Location: Singapore

TOP GUN wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

It was a bloody huge 'contributor', do you really think a large percentage of those early signings were his first choices, or just maybe he had to take a bit of a punt because he was unable to secure his preferred targets?

He didn't have super bucks but I recall he waited 2 years to sign chamakh on a free who was dogshit and gave him a 60k a week contract and also turned down alonso from Liverpool because he deemed him not worth the extra 500k they wanted.


His "penny wise, pound foolish" philosophy has lost us many opportunities for better players.

_________________
Onwards and Upwards!


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484262  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:55 pm
Posts: 11406
Location: Singapore

Rich wrote:
Catching up after being away for the weekend and not sure if it has been mentioned but was that Elneny's best performance in an Arsenal shirt?


Agree, he played very well. Just hope he keeps up his way of playing.

_________________
Onwards and Upwards!


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484263  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:55 pm
Posts: 11406
Location: Singapore

kiwipete wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

The lack of investment was more an historical point and an important one, I'm sure we would be in a different place now if the Club had backed him more a decade ago. Agree of late he has amassed an inordinate amount of dross. My gripe was more with the nonsense about his earlier incarnation, remember AW was the one that converted Lauren into a very effective full back; promoted Cole to the first team; persuaded Campbell to make the leap of faith; turned Toure into a cb and capped it off with the fruit loop between the sticks. I would say that was quite a demonstration of how to build a defence.


I don't think it's a question of lack of the club backing

Don't forget Arsene was "walking on water " back then , if he'd asked for funds even when the stadium was being built I'm sure the club would have responded .

Spending big money wasn't / isn't his style ; he's an Op Shop rummager , loves a bargain [ his grey jersey is testamant to that ]

There is less kudos in buying several semi trailers of the most expensive talent Man City style ; than picking up a disillusioned Thierry Henry on the cheap , changing his position and turning him into the world's best .

Plus I've said it before and we can all be wise after the fact ...... but our reserves with Bendtner and Co were wiping out Premier League teams in the League Cup , this led him to believe they could be seemlessly integrated into the first team and not have to spend the Big Bucks .

Currently showing at Cinema Emirates ... "Turgid Football" ..... been on for some time ; to rubbish reviews but no sign of change .

This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall .


This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall - :53big-emoticons:

_________________
Onwards and Upwards!


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484264  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:42 am
Posts: 12622
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

gooner7 wrote:
kiwipete wrote:


This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall .


This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall - :53big-emoticons:

Shivers .... two rounds of applause in the same day ...thanks TG , G7 much appreciated .


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484265  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:58 am
Posts: 33880

http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/12/arsenal-b ... t-7382407/

I don't see any reason Allegri would leave the 'Old Lady' and come to us. Other than money. Or as a stepping stone to a top EPL job.

_________________
"Never relegated, Never Will Be" :)


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484266  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:27 am 

Goonie wrote:
If they are good enough, they will get the chance. Like Bellerin, Holding and Iwobi.

If they are good enough, and they all looked it at first, is their deterioration since just a difficult but temporary period many young players experience? Or have they been Wengerised in a longer-term, meaning for as long as Mr Arse-hole - sorry, predictive text is playing up - Mr Arsene is around?


  
 
 
Post #484267  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:34 am 

AmericanGooner wrote:
http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/12/arsenal-board-put-massimiliano-allegri-at-top-of-wish-list-to-replace-arsene-wenger-after-tottenham-defeat-7382407/

I don't see any reason Allegri would leave the 'Old Lady' and come to us. Other than money. Or as a stepping stone to a top EPL job.

He's been there, done it, and worn the t-shirt at Juventus. In fact he's worn two t-shirts at the same time. High achievers can sometimes look for new challenges. I'm not saying he will join but taking over from Wenger to make Arsenal successful again would be one hell of a challenge.


  
 
 
Post #484268  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:30 pm
Posts: 8103

Bernard wrote:
Goonie wrote:
If they are good enough, they will get the chance. Like Bellerin, Holding and Iwobi.

If they are good enough, and they all looked it at first, is their deterioration since just a difficult but temporary period many young players experience? Or have they been Wengerised in a longer-term, meaning for as long as Mr Arse-hole - sorry, predictive text is playing up - Mr Arsene is around?

Morning Bernard

I don't believe they have deteriorated. When a young player breaks in to the team we always see the positives and tend to overlook the weaknesses. As they play more games, those weaknesses become more obvious and young players almost always go through tough spells.

I think that happened Bellerin last season and he also struggled with the change in formation. At this point, I think he is a much better player than the kid who broke into the team. He has been given far more responsibility and is essentially defending the right flank on his own. With a more cohesive midfield, he would be very good.

I'm not sure Iwobi has ever played at the level you would expect from an Arsenal attacker. He is more assured in his passing these days and his first touch has always been good but his finishing is still a big problem. He might be better suited to a deeper role, although I don't know if he has the positional awareness to do that.

Holding is one player who really went through a bad spell, and when that happens to a young centre half, it is difficult to fix. I think he has done reasonably well in his recent performances. Strangely enough, our poor league position could help him as he might get a good run of PL games with little at stake.

_________________
"I just kept going pretty lively. Them killers wasn't too healthy company."


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484269  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:02 pm
Posts: 18363

Wengers problem is he always throws the kids in the deep end and then overplays them till their confidence is destroyed. Some will survive like Cesc and Jack if they are strong characters but others will fail.

If you look at the way Ferguson managed young talent and how they were integrated into the first team it's pretty much spot on, never too much too soon.


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484270  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:28 pm 

dec wrote:
At this point, I think he is a much better player than the kid who broke into the team.

Afternoon dec. I'm surprised you wrote that about any of the three, including Bellerin. At last week's Q&A Lee Dixon, who I suggest would know far more about what it takes to be a full back than any of us, said words to the effect that Bellerin has gone downhill from the player he was when he first came into the side. From memory one thing he said was that Bellerin now does his 'head in'.

Dixon put it down to below par training, not him being crap. Lee even said he would be willing to train Arsenal's full backs on a part-time basis himself. In short, he thinks they need it. Poor training, at least on the face of it, may contribute to what I've been calling Wengerisation, as well as things like a lack of organisation.

However, I believe Bellerin has tons of potential and I'd hate to see Barcelona get him, if they do still want him. Also, despite what I see as his decline, I would still want him to be picked for important games. The most important games we have left this season are in my view those in the Europa League, albeit I think it would take a balls up of such huge proportions to get knocked out against Milan, Thursday's game doesn't strike me as that crucial. So if he's fit and available I want him to be picked for Europa League games after Thursday.

Regarding the others, has Holding been as good as he looked last season? I wasn't totally convinced by him last season but I think he's been worse this one. I also think Iowbi looks worse than he did when he first came into the team.


  
 
 
Post #484271  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:33 pm
Posts: 7011
Location: SE9

AmericanGooner wrote:
http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/12/arsenal-board-put-massimiliano-allegri-at-top-of-wish-list-to-replace-arsene-wenger-after-tottenham-defeat-7382407/

I don't see any reason Allegri would leave the 'Old Lady' and come to us. Other than money. Or as a stepping stone to a top EPL job.

So in fact you see two reasons.


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484272  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:58 am
Posts: 33880

"I would loov it, just loov it" if City win the title at Man Utd on April 7th.

_________________
"Never relegated, Never Will Be" :)


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484273  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:31 pm
Posts: 4213
Location: Turnford, Broxbourne, Herts

Crazy fixtures. We finally get a good run together and after Thursdays game we played our next game on April 1st over two weeks later.


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484274  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:31 pm
Posts: 8152
Location: London

bromley gooner wrote:
Draytonkid wrote:
Apparently young Nelson threw a strop, as he as waiting 10 minutes to come on, and he chucked his bib on the floor, don't blame him one bit, 3-0 game was won, and not for the first time Wenger didn't give the youngsters a chance!

Been reading Marcus McGuane's comments after his Barca debut about how he waited for his chance and it never came. And how Wenger never spoke to him in his many years at the club.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Nelson walk like McGuane and Chris Willock.


If mcGuane thinks getting into the barca midfield is easier than getting into Arsenal's he's an idiot. I can understand the move in terms of trying to get the best footballing education.

As for Nelson, his contract situation is a concern, but he'd be pretty foolish to leave given that Wenger is already giving him minutes and involving him in the match squad, and out of the big European clubs, Arsenal have given more opportunities to young players than anyone of the same size over the last decade. He should particularly consider the fact that as a winger, Arsenal are a club who have sold two wingers in 8 months, and now have no natural wingers in the squad. He is nailed on to get games if we progress in the Europa League as Wenger will prioritise and rotate more domestically.

_________________
"....its up for grabs now.........THOMAS!"


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484275  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:31 pm
Posts: 8152
Location: London

Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Ash wrote:

Yeah and I’ll be furious when a new manager comes in and does everything wrong as he wins a double and goes a season unbeaten with a completely different defence. Get him out we’ll all say. Except we won’t because winning is the only thing people measure success by and it makes a host of other things better along with it.

You don’t have to airbrush out success to say it’s all gone to crap. Which it has.


Well said Ash. The bullhooks spouted about Wenger only having success on the back of inheriting a defence totally ignores the fact he put together the invincibles. It also forgets that Graham's unit was widely regarded as being well past their sell by date before Wenger arrived.

A major reason we are where we are is lack of investment on the playing side, which for any long term Arsenal fan should be nothing new.


Damn right. Wenger's stubbornness and unwillingness to devolve control is a MASSIVE issue and has been for a decade, but he would not have accumulated such power if his early achievements and mid-period keeping us competitive weren't such major successes.

_________________
"....its up for grabs now.........THOMAS!"


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484276  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:31 pm
Posts: 8152
Location: London

dec wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

I'm not sure I agree that it's only recently he transformed into a increasingly dysfunctional manager, I think he's always been the same guy but the formula that worked to bring such huge success in the early years didn't later on because time had changed and he didn't change style.

The point I'm making isnt so much to deride his achievements which in the early years were significant and fantastic but to simply say that he's always been the same manager, same person with the same stubborn attitude and it just isn't working anymore.

He absolutely changed style. Take a look at the footage from any season prior to 2006 and you will see a team that moved the ball on very quickly. It wasn't one-touch stuff either. It was control and pass, or what has been forgotten to a large extent is that we had plenty of attackers and midfielders who would actually take on and beat a man. Obviously, we had tremendously gifted players, most of them brought to the club by Wenger, but we also had players who were good but not very top level (Freddie, Parlour, Edu, Lauren, Toure, Wiltord) who contributed greatly and part of that was due to the style of play and the coaching from Wenger. I would say that every single one of them would struggle if you put them in the current team. Edu might be fine.

It changed considerably once Fabregas became the focal point of the team, even though that 2008 side was a very good one. Since then it we have become less and less direct, aping a Barcelona style that we just cannot replicate.

I also think Wenger has changed considerably as a person. Again, look at the footage of him on the sideline in 1998. The guy was brimming with confidence and completely self-assured in his approach. These days he just looks haunted as he frequently runs his fingers through his hair and stares at the ground.


Worthwhile observations. I too think Wenger has changed. He tried to tactically get ahead of the game, but has backed the wrong horse on that one. He didn't seem to realise that to imitate Barcelona but with elements of the old Arsenal style, you need really really really excellent footballers, and even Cesc, for his precocious genius, is not a Iniesta, Messi or Xavi. Subsequently in recent years he's tried to re-jig the team, but instead has given us a lack of any discernible identity or pattern to our play.

I also think he has lost some of his mojo as a person. There is a reason we have a retirement age. No matter how sharp the mind, how much one has learnt, there are certain qualities, such as physical energy and an ability to really connect with young people that do in general diminish over time, and it is much easier to see that from the outside.

Most of us have had a parent age and struggle to adjust to the fact that certain things that were almost second nature get slightly more difficult, long before any significant physical decline. There are certain things I can't do quite as well as I did when I joined SGF 18 years ago, for all the knowledge and wisdom and expertise I may have gained. In the same time, it is inevitable that Wenger has gained in some areas and lost in others.

_________________
"....its up for grabs now.........THOMAS!"


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484277  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:06 am
Posts: 16350

lomekian wrote:
dec wrote:
He absolutely changed style. Take a look at the footage from any season prior to 2006 and you will see a team that moved the ball on very quickly. It wasn't one-touch stuff either. It was control and pass, or what has been forgotten to a large extent is that we had plenty of attackers and midfielders who would actually take on and beat a man. Obviously, we had tremendously gifted players, most of them brought to the club by Wenger, but we also had players who were good but not very top level (Freddie, Parlour, Edu, Lauren, Toure, Wiltord) who contributed greatly and part of that was due to the style of play and the coaching from Wenger. I would say that every single one of them would struggle if you put them in the current team. Edu might be fine.

It changed considerably once Fabregas became the focal point of the team, even though that 2008 side was a very good one. Since then it we have become less and less direct, aping a Barcelona style that we just cannot replicate.

I also think Wenger has changed considerably as a person. Again, look at the footage of him on the sideline in 1998. The guy was brimming with confidence and completely self-assured in his approach. These days he just looks haunted as he frequently runs his fingers through his hair and stares at the ground.


Worthwhile observations. I too think Wenger has changed. He tried to tactically get ahead of the game, but has backed the wrong horse on that one. He didn't seem to realise that to imitate Barcelona but with elements of the old Arsenal style, you need really really really excellent footballers, and even Cesc, for his precocious genius, is not a Iniesta, Messi or Xavi. Subsequently in recent years he's tried to re-jig the team, but instead has given us a lack of any discernible identity or pattern to our play.

I also think he has lost some of his mojo as a person. There is a reason we have a retirement age. No matter how sharp the mind, how much one has learnt, there are certain qualities, such as physical energy and an ability to really connect with young people that do in general diminish over time, and it is much easier to see that from the outside.

Most of us have had a parent age and struggle to adjust to the fact that certain things that were almost second nature get slightly more difficult, long before any significant physical decline. There are certain things I can't do quite as well as I did when I joined SGF 18 years ago, for all the knowledge and wisdom and expertise I may have gained. In the same time, it is inevitable that Wenger has gained in some areas and lost in others.


Wenger sold Vieira and tried to redesign the team around Cesc. It didn't quite work. Why not? Because Cesc wasn't quite good enough? Was Cesc really not as good as Xavi? Or because we had horrible luck with injuries in that period? We look back and try to find reasons, but I think a lot of what happen in sport is luck. More specifically, bad luck.

As for your second point: I completely agree. A lot of the old zest and zing had gone and I don't even miss it. If I had anything like Wenger's money I would retire immediately and fade away gracefully. Evidently Wenger is more a 'Rage, rage against the dying of the light', rather than a "bring the sundowners and turn down the sheets" sort of bloke.

_________________
Hamba kakuhle, Madiba


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484278  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:30 pm
Posts: 8103

Decaf wrote:
lomekian wrote:

Worthwhile observations. I too think Wenger has changed. He tried to tactically get ahead of the game, but has backed the wrong horse on that one. He didn't seem to realise that to imitate Barcelona but with elements of the old Arsenal style, you need really really really excellent footballers, and even Cesc, for his precocious genius, is not a Iniesta, Messi or Xavi. Subsequently in recent years he's tried to re-jig the team, but instead has given us a lack of any discernible identity or pattern to our play.

I also think he has lost some of his mojo as a person. There is a reason we have a retirement age. No matter how sharp the mind, how much one has learnt, there are certain qualities, such as physical energy and an ability to really connect with young people that do in general diminish over time, and it is much easier to see that from the outside.

Most of us have had a parent age and struggle to adjust to the fact that certain things that were almost second nature get slightly more difficult, long before any significant physical decline. There are certain things I can't do quite as well as I did when I joined SGF 18 years ago, for all the knowledge and wisdom and expertise I may have gained. In the same time, it is inevitable that Wenger has gained in some areas and lost in others.


Wenger sold Vieira and tried to redesign the team around Cesc. It didn't quite work. Why not? Because Cesc wasn't quite good enough? Was Cesc really not as good as Xavi? Or because we had horrible luck with injuries in that period? We look back and try to find reasons, but I think a lot of what happen in sport is luck. More specifically, bad luck.

As for your second point: I completely agree. A lot of the old zest and zing had gone and I don't even miss it. If I had anything like Wenger's money I would retire immediately and fade away gracefully. Evidently Wenger is more a 'Rage, rage against the dying of the light', rather than a "bring the sundowners and turn down the sheets" sort of bloke.

Luck certainly plays a big role and Ferguson had it in spades. We were very unlucky with injuries in 2008 and in Chelsea and Man Utd that season, we were competing against two of the strongest sides of the premier league era. As for your question "Was Cesc really not as good as Xavi?", in my view, it isn't even close. Xavi was the greatest creative midfielder of his generation. Better than Pirlo and Scholes. Fabregas was good but not at that level.

I am with you on the retire and take it easy approach. Wenger was a very good judge of when a player should call time on his career but he can't seem to apply the same to his own managerial abilities.

_________________
"I just kept going pretty lively. Them killers wasn't too healthy company."


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484279  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:30 pm
Posts: 8103

Bernard wrote:
dec wrote:
At this point, I think he is a much better player than the kid who broke into the team.

Afternoon dec. I'm surprised you wrote that about any of the three, including Bellerin. At last week's Q&A Lee Dixon, who I suggest would know far more about what it takes to be a full back than any of us, said words to the effect that Bellerin has gone downhill from the player he was when he first came into the side. From memory one thing he said was that Bellerin now does his 'head in'.

Dixon put it down to below par training, not him being crap. Lee even said he would be willing to train Arsenal's full backs on a part-time basis himself. In short, he thinks they need it. Poor training, at least on the face of it, may contribute to what I've been calling Wengerisation, as well as things like a lack of organisation.

However, I believe Bellerin has tons of potential and I'd hate to see Barcelona get him, if they do still want him. Also, despite what I see as his decline, I would still want him to be picked for important games. The most important games we have left this season are in my view those in the Europa League, albeit I think it would take a balls up of such huge proportions to get knocked out against Milan, Thursday's game doesn't strike me as that crucial. So if he's fit and available I want him to be picked for Europa League games after Thursday.

Regarding the others, has Holding been as good as he looked last season? I wasn't totally convinced by him last season but I think he's been worse this one. I also think Iowbi looks worse than he did when he first came into the team.

I've no doubt that Bellerin would benefit from better coaching. After all, he is very young. He is frequently all on his own defending that right flank though, so the set-up of the midfield is a factor. I really think he is a better player now. He was very exciting when he first broke into the team, but that was always going to be a honeymoon period. A bit like AMN now (the MOTD analysis on Sunday did a piece highlighting his qualities but never mentioned the penalty!!) I think he has matured into a good fullback, whose use of the ball is less flash but better. In the proper set-up he could be superb.

Holding has really struggled this season. It happens. There are signs that he is coming out the other side of it.

_________________
"I just kept going pretty lively. Them killers wasn't too healthy company."


 Profile  
 
 
Post #484280  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:42 am
Posts: 12622
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Decaf wrote:
If I had anything like Wenger's money I would retire immediately and fade away gracefully. Evidently Wenger is more a 'Rage, rage against the dying of the light', rather than a "bring the sundowners and turn down the sheets" sort of bloke.

yeah but that's because you might actually have something else going on in your life Decaf .

Work to feed the family , pay the bills , take the kids to soccer , rugby on Saturday etc etc , life is pretty much programmed by necessity .

Suddenly along comes retirement ; for some it's like a train running full tilt into a siding buffer .... faced with this awful void

...." What do I do now " they struggle .

I'm sure Arsene falls into that category .


 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     [ 570734 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1 ... 12104, 12105, 12106, 12107, 12108, 12109, 12110 ... 14269  Next

All times are UTC

Gooners Online - Click to see what Everyones Doing

Colour Key:  Visited Profile    Members Profile      Admin

Get Latest Post

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], bubblechris, warrior and 141 guests


Search for:

Go to Top

Powered by php BB © 1993 - 2018