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Post #516281  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:00 pm 
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bubblechris wrote:
:42laughter: You gotta laugh at Spurs. Conceded dodgy penalty in last minute of injury time to one of those dodgy handball decisions. Two points dropped :42laughter:

God I pray we don't concede one either lik,e that or ever.

:21encouragement:

Even better Harry got a red when the game finished...............

:22encouragement: :22encouragement: :22encouragement:


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Post #516282  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:04 pm 
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:15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter:


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Post #516283  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:11 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
Bernard wrote:
I don’t even think Thiago is that creative. A super player, no doubt. But I never saw him as a provider of pinpoint creative through balls giving open goals or one on ones for Lewandowski when at Bayern. He always looked a more functional and busy ‘move the ball on’ type player to me.

Isn't Aouar supposedly in that mold? That would fit the bill but articles I've been reading say he tends to give the ball away too much and is not obviously better than Ceballos. But he is only 22 so we'd be buying potential and he seems to be highly rated.

It’s dangerous speaking with too much certainty when I’ve never seen him, but that’s the type of player I’m hearing Aouar is also. I really don’t see Thiago as a Brady, Hudson, Hoddle, Gascoigne type.

I don’t know whether he gives the ball away a bit too much, but considering how Ceballos finished last season (by which I mean post the lockdown return), Aouar would have to be one hell of a player to be noticeably better than him.


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Post #516284  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:14 pm 
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I literally cannot wait to hear what Mourinho has to say about that.

Turns out being captain of england doesn’t always give you total immunity to do and say what you like on the pitch, is that a 3 game ban for Kane? Son possibly went off with an injury at half time. Fixtures stacking up....Jose meltdown coming up?


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Post #516285  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:15 pm 
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As funny as that is (and it is bloody hysterical) that’s going to really hurt when it happens to us (and it will)


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Post #516286  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:21 pm 
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Hearing it was one of the coaches and not Kane sent off. Sadly.


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Post #516287  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:54 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
As funny as that is (and it is bloody hysterical) that’s going to really hurt when it happens to us (and it will)

And we will weep when sorrows strike us. But for now :15laughter: :15laughter: :15laughter:

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Post #516288  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:56 pm 
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I didn't think it was a penalty against the scum but I am not complaining it about it either..haha.
Mourinho has lost his magic. I don't foresee it ending well for him there. I didn't think they should have gotten rid of Poch.

Mourinho is going to end up managing 2nd tier clubs. Another possible job is perhaps national team manager. Maybe Portugal if Santos starts to lose. He's done though I think. I can't see any of the top clubs in the world taking him on. He's a shadow of his former self. Humbled. I even pity him to some extent.

The one thing I do hope for is for us to beat him in a league match and restart our dominance over Tottenham we once had when I first became a fan.

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Post #516289  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:59 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Hearing it was one of the coaches and not Kane sent off. Sadly.

Apparently it was Spurs goalkeeping coach Nuno Santos.
Spurs coach Nuno Santos was sent off for his angry reaction.
But....other reports state Kane swore at officials at end of match indicating he was red carded for that.
Doesn't matter. Spurs didn't win. :14laughter:

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Post #516290  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:08 pm 
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and Man City getting ripped apart by Vardy and his mates. 4-1 to Leicester 80 mins played.

:14laughter: :14laughter: :14laughter:


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Post #516291  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:24 pm 
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bubblechris wrote:
and Man City getting ripped apart by Vardy and his mates. 4-1 to Leicester 80 mins played.

:14laughter: :14laughter: :14laughter:

Finished 5-2. Amazing result. Unfortunately Leicester might be more likely to be our direct competitors unless the wheels completely fall off at City.


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Post #516292  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:33 pm 
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21 penalties in 25 games.

Feels like they have fiddled with football too much and ruined it.


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Post #516293  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:35 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Finished 5-2. Amazing result. Unfortunately Leicester might be more likely to be our direct competitors unless the wheels completely fall off at City.

I was thinking exactly the same bromley. Might not be the best result for Arsenal.


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Post #516294  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:52 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
bubblechris wrote:
and Man City getting ripped apart by Vardy and his mates. 4-1 to Leicester 80 mins played.

:14laughter: :14laughter: :14laughter:

Finished 5-2. Amazing result. Unfortunately Leicester might be more likely to be our direct competitors unless the wheels completely fall off at City.

Priceless. The chef opened the oven door too soon and the beautiful souffle simply collapsed!

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Post #516295  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:02 pm 
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City’s reaction to getting thumped 5-2 at home will be to go and spend £65m on CB Dias from Benfica. Perhaps the money would be better spent on a defensive coach.

I saw someone online say that this season could be a perfect storm for a surprise title winner because of the lack of pre season, the new penalty rule and Covid messing around with fixtures and players health. Could be a lottery.

The handball rule is funny when it’s happening to others but I’ll be annoyed when it happens to us, but we need to be playing for it, quite literally chipping balls at arms in the box, making sure free kicks and corners have a melee of players etc


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Post #516296  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:28 pm 
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Rich wrote:

The handball rule is funny when it’s happening to others but I’ll be annoyed when it happens to us, but we need to be playing for it, quite literally chipping balls at arms in the box, making sure free kicks and corners have a melee of players etc

I think I'd rather switch off.

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Post #516297  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:31 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
21 penalties in 25 games.

Feels like they have fiddled with football too much and ruined it.

Completely agree. Four penalties in the two games this afternoon. None of them would have been given 10 years ago. Vardy has perfected the act of getting wrong side of a defender and running across him to dive. Horrible stuff to watch.

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Post #516298  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:38 pm 
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To end another strange day in the footie world with 80 mins gone West Ham are beating Wolves 3-0, another strange result.


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Post #516299  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:51 pm 
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bubblechris wrote:
To end another strange day in the footie world with 80 mins gone West Ham are beating Wolves 3-0, another strange result.

4-0 now. Making our 3 points against them look better. They were good against us and even better tonight.


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Post #516300  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:15 pm 
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dec wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
21 penalties in 25 games.

Feels like they have fiddled with football too much and ruined it.

Completely agree. Four penalties in the two games this afternoon. None of them would have been given 10 years ago. Vardy has perfected the act of getting wrong side of a defender and running across him to dive. Horrible stuff to watch.


It’s got so ridiculous. It’s absurd

To eradicate a refereeing mistake happening every once in a while we’ve endorsed widespread calamity and you could get endless amounts of injustice.

Imagine what that rule will be like in the World Cup.

Don’t get me wrong I found that hysterical today but we almost had a similar situation with Gabriel againest West Ham. What happens if it deprived us of a win at white hart lane? Or cost us a European place. You used to be able to say the decisions would even themselves out but with this there can be any amount of injustice.


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Post #516301  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:29 pm 
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Rich wrote:

The handball rule is funny when it’s happening to others but I’ll be annoyed when it happens to us, but we need to be playing for it, quite literally chipping balls at arms in the box, making sure free kicks and corners have a melee of players etc


Thing is where do you want it to end? Players will start to twig now. You could even get teams deliberately hitting the free kicks at the wall on purpose to find a hand. Or Trying to flick it up to get a touch.

The perception of injustice often wrong has completely destroyed footballs ability to govern itself.


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Post #516302  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:19 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
...I’m not saying creativity is now defunct in the modern game. But I have genuine doubts that finding a creative midfielder is half as important as some seem to think...
When I think about creativity in a footballer I understand it to mean the ability to do something unusual with a pass, a dribble or finding a position on the pitch. Surely these are skills that will always be needed in the game? Liverpool have them all in their team as did City before them.

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Post #516303  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:22 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
...I even pity him to some extent...
Steady on!

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Post #516304  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:44 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Bernard wrote:
...I’m not saying creativity is now defunct in the modern game. But I have genuine doubts that finding a creative midfielder is half as important as some seem to think...
When I think about creativity in a footballer I understand it to mean the ability to do something unusual with a pass, a dribble or finding a position on the pitch. Surely these are skills that will always be needed in the game? Liverpool have them all in their team as did City before them.

Yes this is correct,

even with Liverpool’s more functional midfield each of their midfielders contributed individually more goals and assists than Xhaka, ceballos and Torreira did combined in all competitions last season. Ox even himself contributed 8 goals on his own. This idea they aren’t required to be incisive in the middle of the park is nonsense


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Post #516305  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:46 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Bernard wrote:
...I’m not saying creativity is now defunct in the modern game. But I have genuine doubts that finding a creative midfielder is half as important as some seem to think...
When I think about creativity in a footballer I understand it to mean the ability to do something unusual with a pass, a dribble or finding a position on the pitch. Surely these are skills that will always be needed in the game? Liverpool have them all in their team as did City before them.

I’m not disagreeing with you. But I do think ‘creativity’ is being increasingly defined as the creation of goal scoring chances. Assists weren’t even counted or recorded in the days of Brady and Hudson. Now some seem to see assists as the be all and end all of midfield creativity. I’ve seen midfielders criticised here because they don’t have loads of assists.


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Post #516306  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:59 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Yes this is correct,

even with Liverpool’s more functional midfield each of their midfielders contributed individually more goals and assists than Xhaka, ceballos and Torreira did combined in all competitions last season. Ox even himself contributed 8 goals on his own. This idea they aren’t required to be incisive in the middle of the park is nonsense

But if you put any of them in an Arsenal side with the way we played last season, I bet they'd have similiar numbers to Xhaka, Ceballos and Torreira. Liverpool are just collectively such a formidable attacking team that anyone playing regularly is bound to get on the scoresheet or rack up a few assists.

Anyway, the point is not that creativity is suddenly definct as a concept, it's just that creativity often comes in a different form than it used to. A lot of the football we see now is based on pressing, movement and transition, rather than having players who can pick out a pass that nobody else saw.


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Post #516307  Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:05 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Bernard wrote:
...I’m not saying creativity is now defunct in the modern game. But I have genuine doubts that finding a creative midfielder is half as important as some seem to think...
When I think about creativity in a footballer I understand it to mean the ability to do something unusual with a pass, a dribble or finding a position on the pitch. Surely these are skills that will always be needed in the game? Liverpool have them all in their team as did City before them.

Saka is the only person in the entire squad who has the ability for the brilliant pass or dribble. The best since Fabergas with those killer defence splitting pass. Özil was capable at times but didn’t have players with him, other than Alexis who could understand.

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Post #516308  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:21 am 
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Hazuki wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Yes this is correct,

even with Liverpool’s more functional midfield each of their midfielders contributed individually more goals and assists than Xhaka, ceballos and Torreira did combined in all competitions last season. Ox even himself contributed 8 goals on his own. This idea they aren’t required to be incisive in the middle of the park is nonsense

But if you put any of them in an Arsenal side with the way we played last season, I bet they'd have similiar numbers to Xhaka, Ceballos and Torreira. Liverpool are just collectively such a formidable attacking team that anyone playing regularly is bound to get on the scoresheet or rack up a few assists.

Anyway, the point is not that creativity is suddenly definct as a concept, it's just that creativity often comes in a different form than it used to. A lot of the football we see now is based on pressing, movement and transition, rather than having players who can pick out a pass that nobody else saw.


No those players still exist we just don’t have one. City have De bruyne, United Fernandes (8 goals and 7 assists in 14 games last year) chelsea Havertz and mount. Leicester Maddison (and what a goal yesterday ) the fact they press doesn’t exclude the need to have players who can unlock a defence in your side if you want to be successful.

The need to be workmanlike doesn’t exclude the need to have players in the middle of the pitch who can contribute moments of inspiration. Spurs haven’t looked the same since Erikssen left for example.


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Post #516309  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:56 am 
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Creative players are what makes football fun. It’s that simple really.

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Post #516310  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:27 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
But if you put any of them in an Arsenal side with the way we played last season, I bet they'd have similiar numbers to Xhaka, Ceballos and Torreira. Liverpool are just collectively such a formidable attacking team that anyone playing regularly is bound to get on the scoresheet or rack up a few assists.

Anyway, the point is not that creativity is suddenly definct as a concept, it's just that creativity often comes in a different form than it used to. A lot of the football we see now is based on pressing, movement and transition, rather than having players who can pick out a pass that nobody else saw.


No those players still exist we just don’t have one.

Of course they exist, who said they don't? The point is that creativity as a concept needs to be expanded to include other types of players than just the ones with a killer final ball - players with a good final pass would obviously still be included. If it was only about that final pass I'd suggest we might be looking at the wrong players, because I don't think that's Aouars or Parteys biggest strengths from what I've seen.

Still think they'd help our creative issues though. And if we're talking about assists, there are a few players in the squad who I can see getting good numbers if our team clicks - including Saka, Willian, Pépé and Ceballos.


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Post #516311  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:38 am 
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I'm sure Anfield has earned its reputation as a tough place to go as a player but as a fan I feared Old Trafford and the Bridge more than Anfield. Don't know why but I was more nervous about those places. Even when Liverpool were at their best I didn't fear it as much as Old Trafford at their best usually.

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Post #516312  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:49 am 
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Hazuki wrote:
And if we're talking about assists, there are a few players in the squad who I can see getting good numbers if our team clicks - including Saka, Willian, Pépé and Ceballos.

I would even think about adding Xhaka to that list. Some of his passing is at a high level in my view.


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Post #516313  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:59 am 
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I suppose at the end of the day you can have a debate about if a midfield needs creativity or not but the absolute certainty is Arteta isn’t happy with his midfield and I’d take his opinion on this.

It’s telling Özil, Guendouzi and Torreira have been outcast and that we are being linked to Aour and Partey. It’s telling that despite possibly contemplating 100 million on new midfielders he couldn’t pull the trigger to sign Ceballos permanently.


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Post #516314  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:03 am 
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Just read that we have not had a top 6 away win in 5 years. Can't be true, can it? Hmmm....I fear it is.

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Post #516315  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:19 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Just read that we have not had a top 6 away win in 5 years. Can't be true, can it? Hmmm....I fear it is.

'just read'....? it is a stat that has been shouted by every media outlet for every big Arsenal away game for the last 5 years. I expect even non Arsenal fans can tell you the last time we managed to do it and the facts of the Cazorla/Coq masterclass that day


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Post #516316  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:28 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
It’s telling that despite possibly contemplating 100 million on new midfielders he couldn’t pull the trigger to sign Ceballos permanently.

What might be equally telling is the reason for signing him up on loan, which is something we don’t know. Could feasibly be linked to finance. What it surely has to say though is that Arteta must have wanted Ceballos this season because if he didn’t, I simply can’t imagine we’d have taken him back.


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Post #516317  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:29 am 
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My opinion on Aouar is also based on very limited viewings, where my impression has been that he's more of a dribbler than a passer, operation a little deeper than the classic playmaking number 10. For all I know Arteta may use him in a completely different manner, he doesn't seem like the type of manager to buy a player without a plan for him.


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Post #516318  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:33 am 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
It’s telling that despite possibly contemplating 100 million on new midfielders he couldn’t pull the trigger to sign Ceballos permanently.

What might be equally telling is the reason for signing him up on loan, which is something we don’t know. Could feasibly be linked to finance. What it surely has to say though is that Arteta must have wanted Ceballos this season because if he didn’t, I simply can’t imagine we’d have taken him back.

If we are signing players for 50 or 60 million quid in his position when he would cost half that it can’t be an issue of finance can it.


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Post #516319  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:36 am 
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This hand ball rule, interestingly I hadn't realised that it was in use in Spain and Germany (amongst other leagues) last season. In England there were 19 penalties for handball last season yet Germany and Spain had triple that amount. The rule is here to stay for the season.
I saw someone mentioned the Gabriel one v West Ham, the reason I think that wasn't given is that it his his sleeve. The new rules note anything below the sleeve as being the part of the arm counted for handball (should we be making our sleeves longer!?) It also mentions the natural silhouette of the body, which is why ones like Dier, Maupay and others have been given but the one on Ward v Everton wasn't because his arms were down by his side. There is nothing to do with distance away from where the ball is struck or deflections off teammates. The big problem with that for me is judging what a natural position or natural silhouette is. If I'm standing still then clearly that natural position should be down by my side, but if I'm running then my arms are out in front and behind me, similar if I'm jumping or sliding in to make a tackle the arms won't be naturally by your side.

Like I said before, it may leave a bad taste but we need to be playing for these more. Just looking to cause more chaos in the opponents box. Shooting more, crossing more etc, you aren't going to win penalties for handball by just keeping possession


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Post #516320  Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:03 am 
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Hazuki wrote:
My opinion on Aouar is also based on very limited viewings, where my impression has been that he's more of a dribbler than a passer, operation a little deeper than the classic playmaking number 10. For all I know Arteta may use him in a completely different manner, he doesn't seem like the type of manager to buy a player without a plan for him.

That is how I see Aouar from my own limited viewing. If we take a City team analogy he's more like David Silva than De Bruyne. He's a classic No.8, looks like he would be a good quick transition player from defensive to attack and definitely a good dribbler.

I think our creativity problems don't necessarily stem from not having a player like Cazorla for instance, as others have noted Liverpool's midfield 3 is hardly 'creative'. But what we have is a bit of an imbalance because we have a forward 3 who generally work best on the end of things rather than being a key part of the build up and creating chances for each other in the way the Liverpool front 3 function. Aubemeyang, Lacazette, Pépé are all 'at the end' type players. Willian certainly offers something different in that respect and I suspect Arteta sees Aouar doing the same. It doesn't mean he has to come in and start threading through balls like peak Bergkamp it can just be the speed of transition getting the ball to those finishers.

Liverpool's midfield 3 can only operate the way they do because of the all round talent of the front 3. Most team's midfield 3 have now shunned the traditional No.10 and play with either 2 holding and 1 attacking or like City try to play with 1 holding and 2 No.8's. We could possibly operate somewhere in between. Xhaka holding, Ceballos going box to box but with a more defensive mindset when out of possession and Aouar also going box to box with a more attacking mindset. It is all about the balance. Man U for example haven't found that balance in the midfield but were and still are getting bailed out by individual talent in the front 3 positions who are making and scoring goals for themselves and the ridiculous amounts of penalties they get. Man U's biggest problem is Pogba, he will have 1 amazing game in 8 but in the rest he unbalances the team.


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