I’m not sure how anyone can see Messi other than the greatest player of all time.

Indeed. What is there to dislike in Messi? A thrilling player with the heart of a lion and magical skills. So often he is the difference between Barca and their opponents. We have been blessed to see him perform.

Because there have been some magnificent players before him. Pele didn't earn the accolade as greatest of all time for nothing. Maradona was incredible at his peak. There are plenty of football fans who believe that Ronaldo is better than Messi. For my part, I rate Messi as the best I have ever seen. Pele was before my time.

I understand the argument that a) you can't really judge players before your time and b) it is difficult to compare players across different generations.......but sometimes you have to nail your colours to the mast and for me Messi is the greatest ever. The rate at which he scores, the quality of the goals, the rate at which he assists, the unbelievable technical ability, the balance, the shear fear he strikes in opponents.......and one thing that stands him above Ronaldo for me is I don't think he needs his teammates as much.
Ronaldo has transformed himself in to a deadly striker as he's got older but he still needs that service. Messi has actually started to play deeper as he's got older and he dictates and controls entire games before stepping up and winning them.

Since 2011 only Aguero, Vardy and Hazard have scored more goals vs the premier league top 6 than Messi.
Every top 6 prem player has played 80 games vs top 6 teams in those 8 seasons. Messi has only been able to play top 6 teams if and when Barcelona draw them in Europe.

I think the argument about whether he could cut it on a cold wet tuesday night in Stoke can be put to bed. He regularly puts the premier leagues best teams to the sword - he would totally demolish cardiff and huddersfield

Thought Liverpool played as well as I've seen an away side play in Barcelona but I do think Klopp made a mistake putting Winajldum in a false 9 position. It shows how fortunate Liverpool have been to have Salah/Mane/Firminho pretty much 100% available for the past 2 seasons. They have nothing like their quality after them.
Similar in defence with VvD, Robertson, Trent, Matip - Liverpool have fewer first team defenders than us. They only really have 4 CB and one of those is their deputy RB, and they have Moreno at deputy left back.
It is testament to Liverpool and the players that they have remained fit and also not looking tired. Robertson has played non stop for about 18 months and still bombs up and down that left wing.

We have been blessed to see them all perform against Arsenal too. I’ve seen all the great players of our era in the flesh and that’s a real privilege as a football fan; Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo, Messi, Henry, Buffon, Xavi, Bergkamp, Iniesta, Cannavaro, Ljungberg etc. All masters of their craft.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Chelsea this summer.
Possibly a new manager
Still facing a transfer ban
Sell hazard now for big money without being able to replace him - or lose him for nothing next year
Being forced to promote their young players due to the transfer ban - they have some fantastic talent and have done for some years, Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, Ampadu
Pulisic signing
They may have to recall some of their army of loan players to actually play in the first 11, you forget the players they've signed - not worked out and just been able to ship them off on loan and sign another £40m player - Bakayoko, Kennedy, Rahman, Batshuayi, Morata, Abraham, Moses, Zouma, Kalas, Eduardo. You could make a competent new Premiership squad from their loan players alone

You forgot to mention Wiltord if you're mentioning someone else on your list.

To be honest it's the continual hero worship and fawning over Messi that I find so revoltingly creepy. Can't wait till he retires. Good riddance will be my reaction. The Messi fanboys can then move onto someone else. Having said that, if Barcelona play Tottenham in the final I hope Messi has one of his good days.

But anyway, I'm with Glenn Hoddle on this issue. Maradona is the best I've seen.

David Seaman was on the Alan brazil radio show on talksport. He was with Pyet, Anderton and another spurs guy I think.
Brazil was poking fun saying he felt sorry for Seaman being surrounded by Spurs men, then poked fun at the Nayim goal etc. Seaman just laughed and sai "I'll bring my trophies out soon"
No more needs to be said

Great put down.

It didn't feel like a blessing at the time when Messi was cudgelling us... but I take your point. It was quite magnificent.

Indeed you have been lucky to see them live. The TV is never quite as good as being present. Still some of the goals from Messi this year have just left me open mouthed. I would hate to see our team at this very moment play against Messi.

On to the Valencia game- I wonder whether we will turn up?

Every sport has this argument and its great to be online or better yet, in a pub and hear the arguments. I will say this, I would respect the opinion of those who have seen all the players moreso than those that haven't. I have only seen Pele in youtube videos. I recall Maradonna during the World Cup only in the '80s because that's the only time Americans watched football. So I had no benefit of seeing him for the club as well as for Argentina other than the World Cup. And we must also take in to consideration that even if you grew up when Pele was at his best, you still didn't see him much if at all playing week in, week out for Santos as well as Maradonna for the club.

Then we have to take into eras, the pitch, refereeing, rules changes, etc. As you all know Pele wasn't allowed to play club football outside of Brazil. Had he not been lablled a national treasure, its pretty much a certainty he'd be plying his trade in Europe, my guess for either of the Portuguese or Spanish giants at the time. We can play 'what ifs' and imagine Pele in his prime playing for Benfica or Real Madrid in the European cup. Perhaps that would have elevated him beyond any comparison?

It's a heated debate in the NBA. Michael Jordan is tantamount to Pele and there was no issue for some time that he was the GOAT (Greatest Of All time). Now, its a heated debate whether Kobe Bryant or LeBron James was better. The old school fans would say Kareem Abdul-Jabaar was the greatest (and a strong case can be made). Wilt Chamberlain was said to probably be the best all around athlete for his generation.

I assume cricket has this argument to some extent, depending on the position. Rugby as well perhaps. But to say Messi is the best ever, cute and dry, no debate is to a large extent disrespectful to the past and I would guess most ,not all, but most of the people that say that have never seen Maradonna in his prime and certainly not Pele.

I've heard some CRonaldo fans say that he is a better all around player than Messi. Messi tops in scoring and dribbling but some argue that CRonaldo shades him in set pieces both kicking and heading (heading for sure for obvious reasons. Cronaldo's fans site other factors for him being the best all around player. Also, CRonaldo has shown he can dominate in 3 completely different leagues. And the he is primarily the only reason Portugal gets as far as they do in international competitions. Messi's club dominance has often times not translated to the national team where he is surrounded by great players.

It could be argued that were they more professional some of the modern Brazilian greats (Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Adriano) could possibly be considered.

Anyway, its a fun debate, I will toot my own horn and say I was probably the first post on him when I saw him in a youth tournament and said I will be accused of being over the top and say he was 'Pele-esque' in the competition. I think it was U17 competition. Can't recall exactly.

Both are unplayable many times but I'd have to say Messi at his best seems a wee bit more unplayable than CRonaldo.

I'm glad I've had the opportunity to see Messi as well as tons of others.

Actually Klopp did far worse in his first season than Emery is doing.

Pele for me Rich...

I never saw Pele live. All most of us ever saw of him was on TV at the World Cup every 4 years. He did play several times in England as part of the Santos travelling circus, at places like Stoke, Sheffield, Portsmouth and Villa. Odd to think how football has progressed but in those days, the only way Santos and Pele could make any money was by playing friendlies against any club who’d pay their appearance fee. Santos used to tour like the Harlem Globetrotters and get paid by the host club in readies, with Pele as their star (only) attraction trousering his slice.

I saw Cruyff live a few times and Maradona, as well as all the subsequent superstars. I mention those two because I thought Cruyff was the greatest I’d ever seen, but Maradona was better. But neither were as good as Messi whom I’m blessed to have seen live quite a few times now; though he’s broken my heart on more than one occasion, he has never disappointed me.

Messi

No mention of Wiltord?

He might end up doing better than Klopp this season too, if Klopp ends up empty handed and we win the Europa (touch wood)

"Barcelona loanee Denis Suarez will also not feature again this season due to persistent groin trouble."

I think you could say that about a few of our players actually.

Guendouzi is a big gamble in a game of this magnitude. Fingers crossed he has a great game.

Pathetic defending again.

5 at the back. And not a single defender amongst them.

Shocking

They didn’t even want to just jump

3 re%$#^s on our back post. That’s our season over

And why play Čech?

Well you can’t say we weren’t warned. They did that exact set piece moments before. It feels like Arsenal defenders go out on the pitch with a set of orders but when anything falls outside that set of orders they are either unable to react or adapt or make the wrong decision in reacting or adapting.
Awful start

Don’t want to make excuses, but there’s no confidence in our play at all.

Even if your *%^@ at defending you can’t sacrifice a midfielder for an extra defender cause you won’t control the game

We are waiting for emery to change it

Btw this is done

Finished


We blew it. Emery *%^@** this one up

Once again we look like we’re facing a team where every arsenal players opposing man is quicker and stronger

Lacazette 1-1 very much needed!

If you play 5 defenders at home you will let them dominate

Lacazette 2-1 great header!

2-1. Are you sure TG?

I still don’t believe it. We need another 1 or 2

There’s no clean sheet in Valencia

Enjoying a ref who actually understands the advantage rule

The lack of mobility and acceleration in central midfield (and the team in general) is a worry. Right on half time Xhaka made a good tackle, turned to get the ball he’d won and by the time he’d done that the Valencia player he’d tackled had run around him and forced Xhaka to foul him.

Hope Lacazette gets his third in the second, for his hattrick. We need a two-goal cushion, at the least. Come on Gunners!

A two-goal lead to take at Valencia would be most welcomed.