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Post #480041  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:10 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
Per's comments after the match were clearly directed at senior players. Most definitely at Holding, Elneny, Debuchy, Welbeck and definitely Walcott. I am sure he has counted himself in as well.

Holding, Elneny, Debuchy & Welbeck are just not good enough.
Walcott is a waste of space. Definitely not giving his all, and shies away from tackles. Get out of Arsenal!

All the blame goes to Wenger for failing to shift ineffective players, and giving them fat contracts. The sunk cost for buying expensive players is saved by Wenger. But, the variable and recurring cost for fat salaries from ineffective/disinterested players, is caused by Wenger too. A terribly failed gamble by someone who used to have better foresight. And with hindsight, he still gambles on.


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Post #480042  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:47 am 
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Didn’t watch the game last night, but you know it’s bad when people start to get nostalgic about Joel Campbell. Come on people, let’s not slag Wenger off for one of the things he’s actually done right in recent years – deciding Campbell isn’t good enough. Walcott is far superior, and he should've been sold 2-3 years ago.

Looking at our eleven from last night, there’s actually a fair bit of talent there. Shame we can’t set up the team properly these days. Like Darren, I actually suspect Wenger will leave in the summer – either by choice or by force. The fact that we’ve signed a player above Wenger’s head is a huge sign that there’s a power shift going on. I hope we sell Sanchez in January, and Özil as well if he doesn’t sign a new contract. Hoard the money, or get a couple of young quality players in. Doesn’t matter that Wenger can’t get the best out of them, we need quality players for the next manager anyway.


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Post #480043  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:48 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Rich wrote:
Very good.
I’ve read it will only be used for goals (to check no immediate infringement - not something that happened 60 seconds earlier in the same move, it will be used for red cards but not second yellows, and for cases of mistaken identity.

Can I make a point about VAR and the allegedly twice touched penalty.

So much depends on what the VAR person gets to see. On the coverage here I never saw any footage that clearly 100% showed he hit it twice. Jeez it looked like it but nothing to absolutely prove

I think the spin on the ball proved it hit his other foot (standing foot). It is impossible to make the ball spin with topspin if you just strike a football off the ground without it hitting anything else. The physics of it are more conclusive that what the human eye can or can’t see


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Post #480044  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:49 am 
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... -draw.html

Chew on that you numpties.....


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Post #480045  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:56 am 
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bubblechris wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5244927/Mike-Dean-admits-error-Arsenal-West-Brom-draw.html

Chew on that you numpties.....

cat amongst the pigeons......


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Post #480046  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:02 am 
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I think this is the last straw for Wenger, they must let him go, as that was a shambles,it was his decision to forsake the value of the FA cup for a lesser competition in which we don't have much chance of progressing in.
Wonder if Vieira and Arteta would take it on?


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Post #480047  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:06 am 
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Rich wrote:
What a rebuild! Pep just had to rebuild a defence and it took £150m
We need to rebuild an entire squad!

I think if you go through all our rivals squad you can make similar lists of players that need replacing.

Liverpool have no goalkeeper of the required standard, and exactly one central defender who is good enough in Van Dijk. Matip looks no more than decent, Klavan and Lovren are simply not good enough. Chelsea have a good starting eleven overall, with a couple of top class players papering over the cracks. Not much depth, and even some of their starters are not that good. Man United sorely lacks creativity throughout their entire squad. Tottenham have possibly the worst bench in the top 6. There’s work to be done for every manager.

I will never understand why people deem Welbeck as not good enough, and Coquelin and Elneny are not worse squad options than Drinkwater or that useless lump Fellaini.

We need a bit of an overhaul, but there’s a good core group of players for our new manager to work with, sprinkled with a couple of top class talents. If anyone thought we could turn everything around with just a manager change and one transfer window they were fooling themselves to begin with.


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Post #480048  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:07 am 
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bubblechris wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5244927/Mike-Dean-admits-error-Arsenal-West-Brom-draw.html

Chew on that you numpties.....

Well that's mighty big of him.


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Post #480049  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:30 am 
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Today's rumour is Ramsey and Welbeck are both refusing to sign new contracts as the club has offered them extensions but with no improved terms.

Welbeck I couldn't care less about now as he's Kevin Campbell -40% but Ramsey can still do a job in the premiership.

Everything literally everything is in disarray


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Post #480050  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:30 am 
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Everybody thinks Mike Dean was wrong to give that penalty. It was a hard one to deny. We all KNOW that some penalties are incorrectly given or not given, it's hardly major news. Happens in all sports even with technology. Saw an absurd one in the Lions v All Blacks at the death when NZ not given a clear penalty for offside that would have given them the series (just for you, KP!)

Not really the point though is it?

Do you react by running around screaming at every subsequent 50/50 decision that goes against us and claim it is evidence of some big conspiracy while ignoring any decisions in our favour or evidence of our players doing what all the rest of them do?

On the subject of VAR I really hope people don't kill better with perfect. There will be some hiccoughs at the start it won't solve everything just as happened with cricket reviews. I very much doubt it would have altered the "double touch" decision yesterday as it just wasn't conclusive enough - like an LBW where you have a reasonable idea but it still remains too close to overturn. That might be annoying for some fanatics but it is still probably much better than the status quo. I am pessimistic though that as soon as it doesn't achieve the desired outcome on one occasion the squealing and special pleading and victim mentality will all start up again.


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Post #480051  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:36 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Everything literally everything is in disarray

You mean figuratively and you need to stop believing every rumour you read.


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Post #480052  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:47 am 
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Daz if you're talking to me no I do not. I praise them when they get things right, I accept the decision they make if they give nothing because they couldn't see the incident and I acknowledge a penalty given eg Bellerin when he ran alongside a layer and pushed him in the back however lightly, so no I am not looking at every decision as bad.

I dfo however objec o the obviously bad decisions that go against my team when watchng a game.


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Post #480053  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:50 am 
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Hazuki wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Everything literally everything is in disarray

You mean figuratively and you need to stop believing every rumour you read.


Literally is a figure of speech.

Although he might mean literally in the strictest sense anyway - it's hard to think of something that isn't right now.


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Post #480054  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:51 am 

Gaz from Oz, I couldn't see anything to suggest Welbeck's shot was going wide before being deflected in. His shot looked on target as far as I could see.

I also agree with Daz. VAR shouldn't have seen the penalty retaken. The evidence that he kicked it twice simply wasn't hard enough.


  
 
 
Post #480055  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:52 am 
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Daz wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
You mean figuratively and you need to stop believing every rumour you read.


Literally is a figure of speech.

Although he might mean literally in the strictest sense anyway - it's hard to think of something that isn't right now.

Yes, but it literally drives me insane the way it’s being overused by drama queens.


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Post #480056  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:58 am 
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Besides, I thought you’d jump on the ’but Ramsey can still do a job in the Premiership’ bit, which admittedly is a step up from simply not being good enough, but still not near the actual truth that Ramsey is a top class player.


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Post #480057  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:01 am 
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Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.

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Post #480058  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:13 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Gaz from Oz, I couldn't see anything to suggest Welbeck's shot was going wide before being deflected in. His shot looked on target as far as I could see.

I also agree with Daz. VAR shouldn't have seen the penalty retaken. The evidence that he kicked it twice simply wasn't hard enough.

One angle only showed the goalkeeper deflected it back towards the goal. The comms went on to say it should be classified as an OG.

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Post #480059  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:19 am 
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Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.

Your view is based on an assumption that this is the only way the ball could have loped up like that. You nor the refs are not experts in this field, if there is such an area of study. It is not based on physical evidence that shows 2 kicks. Without that the decision could not be overturned. The ref got it right as did the linesman.

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Post #480060  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:23 am 
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Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.

Yes but the really clever people have moved passed that , and adopting the attitude one touch , two touches , twenty touches who cares we were sh**t .... had no gameplan , little desire , no heart and so lost the game .

Yes siree that's what the clued up brigade are thinking .


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Post #480061  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:25 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.

Your view is based on an assumption that this is the only way the ball could have loped up like that. You nor the refs are not experts in this field, if there is such an area of study. It is not based on physical evidence that shows 2 kicks. Without that the decision could not be overturned. The ref got it right as did the linesman.


Seriously? He hits it with the instep of his left foot, it cannot possibly take the trajectory it did without a deflection, which on replay you can clearly see.

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Post #480062  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:31 am 
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kiwipete wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.

Yes but the really clever people have moved passed that , and adopting the attitude one touch , two touches , twenty touches who cares we were sh**t .... had no gameplan , little desire , no heart and so lost the game .

Yes siree that's what the clued up brigade are thinking .


Could not care less about the result, or this current set up to be honest, but I'm always fascinated when errors are highlighted and still people cannot see the evidence before them. The comms, who I assume were ex players, still couldn't twig after several replays. Bizarrely they agreed between them that Debuchy had not committed a foul in the first place.

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Post #480063  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:33 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Today's rumour is Ramsey and Welbeck are both refusing to sign new contracts as the club has offered them extensions but with no improved terms.

Welbeck I couldn't care less about now as he's Kevin Campbell -40% but Ramsey can still do a job in the premiership.

Everything literally everything is in disarray


All part of "austerity measures" now we're out of the Champions(and 2nd, 3rd 4th) league.

Got to stay in profit, that is the #1 goal of KSE Inc.

Midtable here we come!.

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Post #480064  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:47 am 
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Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.

Agreed, it was clear on the replays.

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Post #480065  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:51 am 
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Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
Your view is based on an assumption that this is the only way the ball could have loped up like that. You nor the refs are not experts in this field, if there is such an area of study. It is not based on physical evidence that shows 2 kicks. Without that the decision could not be overturned. The ref got it right as did the linesman.


Seriously? He hits it with the instep of his left foot, it cannot possibly take the trajectory it did without a deflection, which on replay you can clearly see.

Prepare yourself for total disappointment when VAR arrives. Sorry I never seen any deflection from one foot to the other. Read some of my early posts. Coverage I had never proved conclusively it hit the other foot.

I understand completely your argument. Do you accept the ref and lino could not clearly see what happened without drawing assumptions that' this must have been what happened.'

On what I saw which was even more than the ref I could not draw on circumstantial evidence alone without any independent corroboration.

Lets all just look forward to the Chelsea first leg. That should be an absolute joy to behold. What could go wrong. I wonder what team we will play. That defensive team may need a few pointers before the big game.

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Post #480066  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:58 am 
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You would have thought with all the recent controversy that the 4th official would have tipped them off when they had the conflab on the touch line. A bit of common sense sometimes goes a long way.

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Post #480067  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:02 am 
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Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.


I know "I don't know" is an unfashionable term but I truly don't know. I do think it was almost a bizarre case of the slip bringing his feet together simultaneously and I don't know what the rules say on that. Is the "loop" only explicable by the second foot or could falling backwards provide that kind of uplift? I'm not a physicist so I don't know and I think the point Gaz is reasonably making is neither would the VAR refs so they would probably in the moment stick with a goal with no clear and decisive evidence to overturn. Obviously we may all disagree on what is clear and decisive but a bit like "umpire's call" in cricket we will just have to live with some decisions that are questionable not being overturned.


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Post #480068  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:07 am 
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kiwipete wrote:
Yes but if you are going to focus on refs making mistakes why didn't you mention the earlier incident when Nelson dived to win the free kick which led to our first goal ....?
But Kiwi he didn't dive. He put the ball ahead of himself and ran into a defender and went over. You see that happen a lot, and often my sympathy is with the defenders. How can they get out of the way? Where are they supposed to go if a forward runs more or less straight at them? Yes the free kick that led to the goal was harsh, but our boy didn't dive to get it.

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Post #480069  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:10 am 
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If the PGMOL are going to be responsible for running VAR then I suspect there will be very little change.

In other news, for the gamblers out there, Ancelotti to replace Conte in the summer.

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Post #480070  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:18 am 
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Daz wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Truly amazed that anyone cannot see that was a double touch, especially when viewed from behind the taker. He goes to drill the ball low to keepers left and it lobs over where the keepers right shoulder was. Hilarious that BT comms couldn't see it after several re runs.


I know "I don't know" is an unfashionable term but I truly don't know. I do think it was almost a bizarre case of the slip bringing his feet together simultaneously and I don't know what the rules say on that. Is the "loop" only explicable by the second foot or could falling backwards provide that kind of uplift? I'm not a physicist so I don't know and I think the point Gaz is reasonably making is neither would the VAR refs so they would probably in the moment stick with a goal with no clear and decisive evidence to overturn. Obviously we may all disagree on what is clear and decisive but a bit like "umpire's call" in cricket we will just have to live with some decisions that are questionable not being overturned.


I used to be a free kick geek back in the 70s. Spent hours practising them with my school goalie mate.

The only time I managed an effect like that pen was when I slipped and double hit. No way that ball does that without hitting his other foot. Physics would suggest the same too. (The look on the Forest player's face suggests also that he thought it was a fluke)

Just for the record - I am not trying to say the result was a travesty - we deserved to lose.

Wenger out.

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Post #480071  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:24 am 
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http://onlinegooner.com/article.php?sec ... lNQhlVl_Gg

Pretty much calls it.

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Post #480072  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:24 am 
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Even my posts are double hits!!

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Post #480073  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:25 am 
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Daz wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
You mean figuratively and you need to stop believing every rumour you read.


Literally is a figure of speech.

Although he might mean literally in the strictest sense anyway - it's hard to think of something that isn't right now.

Say it ain't so, Daz. If you concede - and you're throwing in the biggest, wettest, saddest, defeatistest towel if you do - that 'literally' can now mean either its accepted definition for a millennium - i.e. 'literally' - or its precise opposite as determined in recent years by idiots - i.e. 'not literally' - where does this leave us vis-a-vis your own relationship with language and with truth? Much like John Lennon with the Maharishi, I'm feeling a little violated right now.

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Post #480074  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:25 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Can I make a point about VAR and the allegedly twice touched penalty. So much depends on what the VAR person gets to see...
Indeed, and this is another murky and unsatisfactory area of football. What gets shown on the screen will be completely dependent upon a person who is not formally part of the match taking place - namely, an unaccountable TV producer! For years we have had 'trial by television' and retrospective disciplinary action for incidents unseen by the officials during the course of a match, but who actually decided which of those incidents merited scrutiny remains a mystery. That TV runs so much of football now is obvious, but its influence over on-field issues should be carefully limited. VAR may be useful in certain circumstances but overall I'd sooner live with the vagaries of the officials, biased or unbiased.

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Post #480075  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:38 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
Can I make a point about VAR and the allegedly twice touched penalty. So much depends on what the VAR person gets to see...
Indeed, and this is another murky and unsatisfactory area of football. What gets shown on the screen will be completely dependent upon a person who is not formally part of the match taking place - namely, an unaccountable TV producer! For years we have had 'trial by television' and retrospective disciplinary action for incidents unseen by the officials during the course of a match, but who actually decided which of those incidents merited scrutiny remains a mystery. That TV runs so much of football now is obvious, but its influence over on-field issues should be carefully limited. VAR may be useful in certain circumstances but overall I'd sooner live with the vagaries of the officials, biased or unbiased.

VAR has been used in the Australian league this season and it's truly horrible in its current guise. Tonight, a goal was ruled out courtesy of a player being registered as offside by the VAR in the move (or do I mean phase) before the move before the move before the goal. It was a 'violation' spotted by no-one on or off the park; which would have been argued afterwards by precisely nobody other than the kind of saddos who occupy forums like this one (lovable saddos though we are); and which resulted in a goal being ruled out as the two teams were lining up for kick-off, both of whom had believed it was valid. A better way to suck the life out of football, I can't imagine.

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Post #480076  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:47 am 
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Bernard wrote:
I also agree with Daz. VAR shouldn't have seen the penalty retaken. The evidence that he kicked it twice simply wasn't hard enough.
What interested me about that situation was the way in which many Arsenal players quickly appealed for a double touch. Not something you would do unless it happened. They clearly saw, and most probably heard, that something was wrong when the penalty taker made impact with the ball. Truth is the referee missed what the players didn't, and in the context of the match it was a significant error.

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Post #480077  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:53 am 
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I'm fully aboard Daz's boat now.

I'll be watching the Chelsea game on Wednesday hoping we get hammered. Only continuous failure now will bring forth the change required that with gods goodwill enables the liberation of our once great football club.


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Post #480078  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:55 am 
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john1 wrote:
Daz wrote:

I know "I don't know" is an unfashionable term but I truly don't know. I do think it was almost a bizarre case of the slip bringing his feet together simultaneously and I don't know what the rules say on that. Is the "loop" only explicable by the second foot or could falling backwards provide that kind of uplift? I'm not a physicist so I don't know and I think the point Gaz is reasonably making is neither would the VAR refs so they would probably in the moment stick with a goal with no clear and decisive evidence to overturn. Obviously we may all disagree on what is clear and decisive but a bit like "umpire's call" in cricket we will just have to live with some decisions that are questionable not being overturned.


I used to be a free kick geek back in the 70s. Spent hours practising them with my school goalie mate.

The only time I managed an effect like that pen was when I slipped and double hit. No way that ball does that without hitting his other foot. Physics would suggest the same too. (The look on the Forest player's face suggests also that he thought it was a fluke)

Just for the record - I am not trying to say the result was a travesty - we deserved to lose.

Wenger out.


Sure I didn't say I knew that had happened, I was just wondering out loud in terms of whether a VAR ref would know for certain. Anyway, double hit or not, it was just one of those things really not exactly the defining moment in the game and, compared to chippy northern and midlands refs indulging their hatred of the most successful club in London fifteen years ago, relatively small beer.

Very impressed by the number of physicists on here though - I didn't even get a GCSE in it.


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Location: The Go-Between Bridge

old man of hoy wrote:
Bernard wrote:
I also agree with Daz. VAR shouldn't have seen the penalty retaken. The evidence that he kicked it twice simply wasn't hard enough.
What interested me about that situation was the way in which many Arsenal players quickly appealed for a double touch. Not something you would do unless it happened. They clearly saw, and most probably heard, that something was wrong when the penalty taker made impact with the ball. Truth is the referee missed what the players didn't, and in the context of the match it was a significant error.


I do agree with that. They seemed absolutely certain and vehement. I don't quite agree on its significance though but I await a ton of hypothetical certainties, phrases like "everybody knows" and "balance of game shifting".


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Post #480080  Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:00 pm 
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http://news.arseblog.com/2018/01/report ... m=facebook

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According to the Mirror, Arsenal could sell Francis Coquelin before the January transfer window closes.

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