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Post #517161  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:26 am 
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Goonie wrote:
Özil not starting games is for footballing reasons, I agree. But Özil not even in the 25-man squad is power play at work.

But if Arteta has decided he isn’t going to play him for footballing reasons, as you accept, and after the transfer window’s activity Arsenal had to exclude two existing players to meet the squad limits in place, isn’t Özil an obvious choice to be one of the two excluded?

Sorry, I’d call it logic more than ‘power play’.


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Post #517162  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am 
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If anything it’s a power play from Özil who has just downed tools for several years to try and force Arsenal to get fed up and pay off his contract. The player we’ve seen in recent seasons bears no semblance to the one signed in his first year and when you get subbed off in a European final and joe willock comes on and looks instantly better you have to take a serious look at yourself.

The press said this week Arsenal have made several offers to him to settle his contract but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere.

The debate about Özil has become so boring he can’t go soon enough and the club have been absolutely right to drop him in the recent squads


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Post #517163  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:13 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Goonie wrote:
Özil not starting games is for footballing reasons, I agree. But Özil not even in the 25-man squad is power play at work.

But if Arteta has decided he isn’t going to play him for footballing reasons, as you accept, and after the transfer window’s activity Arsenal had to exclude two existing players to meet the squad limits in place, isn’t Özil an obvious choice to be one of the two excluded?

Sorry, I’d call it logic more than ‘power play’.


You can always find a spot for a class player who happens to be your highest paid player even if he has declined. Not even included in the Europa squad where most first teamers would be rested.


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Post #517164  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:17 am 
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Goonie wrote:
Bernard wrote:
But if Arteta has decided he isn’t going to play him for footballing reasons, as you accept, and after the transfer window’s activity Arsenal had to exclude two existing players to meet the squad limits in place, isn’t Özil an obvious choice to be one of the two excluded?

Sorry, I’d call it logic more than ‘power play’.


You can always find a spot for a class player who happens to be your highest paid player even if he has declined. Not even included in the Europa squad where most first teamers would be rested.

He’s not a class player, maybe once but no more. What about when he stunk out a European final and a youth player came on and looked like Messi compared to him.


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Post #517165  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:18 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
If anything it’s a power play from Özil who has just downed tools for several years to try and force Arsenal to get fed up and pay off his contract. The player we’ve seen in recent seasons bears no semblance to the one signed in his first year and when you get subbed off in a European final and joe willock comes on and looks instantly better you have to take a serious look at yourself.

The press said this week Arsenal have made several offers to him to settle his contract but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere.

The debate about Özil has become so boring he can’t go soon enough and the club have been absolutely right to drop him in the recent squads


I can't recall the other 10 starters doing much better.


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Post #517166  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:23 am 
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Goonie wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
If anything it’s a power play from Özil who has just downed tools for several years to try and force Arsenal to get fed up and pay off his contract. The player we’ve seen in recent seasons bears no semblance to the one signed in his first year and when you get subbed off in a European final and joe willock comes on and looks instantly better you have to take a serious look at yourself.

The press said this week Arsenal have made several offers to him to settle his contract but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere.

The debate about Özil has become so boring he can’t go soon enough and the club have been absolutely right to drop him in the recent squads


I can't recall the other 10 starters doing much better.

Every single one of them did better even Iwobi


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Post #517167  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:50 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Goonie wrote:

I can't recall the other 10 starters doing much better.

Every single one of them did better even Iwobi


Yes, I remember Iwobi and Willock doing well. But that match is a blur to me now.

Back to Özil situation today, I'm not saying he is blameless - he's needling the management just as much. Both have fallen out of love and like a bitter divorce both are trying to inflict as much hurt on the other party.


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Post #517168  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:07 am 
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Goonie wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
If anything it’s a power play from Özil who has just downed tools for several years to try and force Arsenal to get fed up and pay off his contract. The player we’ve seen in recent seasons bears no semblance to the one signed in his first year and when you get subbed off in a European final and joe willock comes on and looks instantly better you have to take a serious look at yourself.

The press said this week Arsenal have made several offers to him to settle his contract but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere.

The debate about Özil has become so boring he can’t go soon enough and the club have been absolutely right to drop him in the recent squads


I can't recall the other 10 starters doing much better.
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Post #517169  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:13 am 
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Goonie wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Every single one of them did better even Iwobi


Yes, I remember Iwobi and Willock doing well. But that match is a blur to me now.

Back to Özil situation today, I'm not saying he is blameless - he's needling the management just as much. Both have fallen out of love and like a bitter divorce both are trying to inflict as much hurt on the other party.
Seriously, what hurt as Özil inflicted upon Arsenal? He has not made himself unavailable to play nor has he publicly trashed the club or manager. He is abiding by his contract. We should accept the situation for what it is without blaming him - the manager does not want him in the team, and that is the sum of it.

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Post #517170  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:36 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Goonie wrote:

Yes, I remember Iwobi and Willock doing well. But that match is a blur to me now.

Back to Özil situation today, I'm not saying he is blameless - he's needling the management just as much. Both have fallen out of love and like a bitter divorce both are trying to inflict as much hurt on the other party.
Seriously, what hurt as Özil inflicted upon Arsenal? He has not made himself unavailable to play nor has he publicly trashed the club or manager. He is abiding by his contract. We should accept the situation for what it is without blaming him - the manager does not want him in the team, and that is the sum of it.


I'm referring to this by TG "...but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere." No doubt Özil and his team plus some supporters would see it as his fair due.


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Post #517171  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:47 am 
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I think it's a bit sad that it comes to this. There's no doubt Özil is an immense football talent; I'm going to go out on a limb and say he has possibly the best final pass of any Arsenal player I've ever seen (and bear in mind that's roughly from 1995 and onwards). There's Bergkamp of course, but as much as his highlight reel assists are a joy to watch, Özil was to my mind more consistent in that regard. Henry was an underrated passer, but still obviously more of a goalscorer. Cesc was a brilliant playmaker at his best. But the sheer consistency with which Özil delivered the final pass, always accurate, always perfectly weighted, was something special.

But there's now been basically two full seasons where he hasn't really produced anything noteworthy on the football pitch. And this season he's probably not going to play a single game if this keeps up. That's three wasted years, and he's not even that old; turning 32 next week. It's just such a waste.


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Post #517172  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:01 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
If anything it’s a power play from Özil who has just downed tools for several years to try and force Arsenal to get fed up and pay off his contract. The player we’ve seen in recent seasons bears no semblance to the one signed in his first year and when you get subbed off in a European final and joe willock comes on and looks instantly better you have to take a serious look at yourself.

The press said this week Arsenal have made several offers to him to settle his contract but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere.

The debate about Özil has become so boring he can’t go soon enough and the club have been absolutely right to drop him in the recent squads

Would that be a settlement like 40m + 1. The club are not known for financial astuteness. Pay the whole lot. Would love to know what they were willing to offer in after tax money. Anything the club says I would need to see the actual evidence before even thinking to accept it as fact. But there are plenty of people who will believe anything whether it relates to the club or COVID.

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Post #517173  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:12 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
Would that be a settlement like 40m + 1.


I'm disappointed the club did not offer £45m +£1 for Partey.


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Post #517174  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:53 am 
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Goonie wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
If anything it’s a power play from Özil who has just downed tools for several years to try and force Arsenal to get fed up and pay off his contract. The player we’ve seen in recent seasons bears no semblance to the one signed in his first year and when you get subbed off in a European final and joe willock comes on and looks instantly better you have to take a serious look at yourself.

The press said this week Arsenal have made several offers to him to settle his contract but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere.

The debate about Özil has become so boring he can’t go soon enough and the club have been absolutely right to drop him in the recent squads


I can't recall the other 10 starters doing much better.

Yep. Singling out one match to try to score a killer point about a player's uselessness is - generally - the last refuge of the simpleton. TG is right, though, about Özil being dropped in recent squads. In which match he's played in the last 12 months have you thought, 'Now that's why we pay him 350,000 a week'? As for his political views, if he was still conjuring up 19 assists a season, I suspect Arteta wouldn't mind if he replaced the 'Visit Rwanda' logo with 'Erdogan Rules'.

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Post #517175  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:01 am 
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Hazuki wrote:
I think it's a bit sad that it comes to this. There's no doubt Özil is an immense football talent; I'm going to go out on a limb and say he has possibly the best final pass of any Arsenal player I've ever seen (and bear in mind that's roughly from 1995 and onwards). There's Bergkamp of course, but as much as his highlight reel assists are a joy to watch, Özil was to my mind more consistent in that regard. Henry was an underrated passer, but still obviously more of a goalscorer. Cesc was a brilliant playmaker at his best. But the sheer consistency with which Özil delivered the final pass, always accurate, always perfectly weighted, was something special.

Your post got me thinking about the ten most skilful players I’ve seen play for the club. Not the best tacklers (such as Adams), strongest in the air (possibly Radford), the quickest (like Henry), the most productive (including Vieira) or consistent (maybe Armstrong). But purely the most talented in terms of skill on the ball including control and passing ability.

Names that spring to mind immediately, in alphabetical order, are Arshavin, Bergkamp, Brady, Fabregas, George, Hudson, Marinello, Özil, Pires, Rocastle. Yet how do Ball and Limpar not get in? Or Henry, in my view the club’s greatest player? Sanchez, Wilshere, Cazorla and Nasri not quite there. Or Bentley. It’s all opinion anyway. I saw Hoddle and Gascoigne play for Arsenal in Merson’s testimonial but not competitively, otherwise they’d get in. Hoddle definitely.


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Post #517176  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:52 pm 
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Özil a better creative player than Bergkamp or Fabregas

No way


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Post #517177  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:57 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Özil a better creative player than Bergkamp or Fabregas

No way

There's more to creativity than the final pass though. Both Bergkamp and Fabregas had qualities that Özil lacks, but if I'm strapped to an electric chair with my life depending on the result of a match and an Arsenal player is in a good position to score, I'd probably pick Özil to deliver the pass. There's not much in it, but his consistency in playing that final ball just right really was marvelous.


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Post #517178  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:20 pm 
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mcquilkie wrote:
Goonie wrote:

I can't recall the other 10 starters doing much better.

Yep. Singling out one match to try to score a killer point about a player's uselessness is - generally - the last refuge of the simpleton. TG is right, though, about Özil being dropped in recent squads. In which match he's played in the last 12 months have you thought, 'Now that's why we pay him 350,000 a week'? As for his political views, if he was still conjuring up 19 assists a season, I suspect Arteta wouldn't mind if he replaced the 'Visit Rwanda' logo with 'Erdogan Rules'.


Out of curiosity I checked Özil's stats for last season. After Arteta took over he played Özil 10 times in the league and drop him for the last 10 league games.
With Özil, P 10 W 4 D 5 L 1 Pts 17
W/o Özil, P 10 W 5 D 1 L 4 Pts 16

Not really much difference but there were some flashes of returning to form when he played and his last three matches saw us winning three in a row (Newcastle, Everton and West Ham). Özil even managed to score 1 against Newcastle and assist 1 against West Ham.

With or without Özil we struggled to play free flow attacking football. Arteta has opted for being more solid defensively and we have become a useful counter-attacking team.

Özil played only 1 FA cup game - against Leeds. He played no part in the other 5 matches that we won. Özil wasn't indispensable but neither was he totally useless.


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Post #517179  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:48 pm 
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I'm reading a few reports that the 2 wingers we got after the close of the transfer window may be the steal of the window. Fingers crossed.

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Post #517180  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:52 pm 
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Goonie wrote:

Out of curiosity I checked Özil's stats for last season. After Arteta took over he played Özil 10 times in the league and drop him for the last 10 league games.
With Özil, P 10 W 4 D 5 L 1 Pts 17
W/o Özil, P 10 W 5 D 1 L 4 Pts 16

Not really much difference but there were some flashes of returning to form when he played and his last three matches saw us winning three in a row (Newcastle, Everton and West Ham). Özil even managed to score 1 against Newcastle and assist 1 against West Ham.

With or without Özil we struggled to play free flow attacking football. Arteta has opted for being more solid defensively and we have become a useful counter-attacking team.

Özil played only 1 FA cup game - against Leeds. He played no part in the other 5 matches that we won. Özil wasn't indispensable but neither was he totally useless.


I'm curious as to know if Arteta's reason for not including Özil is he just doesn't fit into his system or its something else. I seem to recall (and my memory is fuzzy on this) that Arteta's didn't feel Özil was working hard in training. Arteta wants to see players train hard as an indicator of their committment to the cause. Maybe his unwillingness to track back and play enough defense.

Maybe its a combination thereof. Bur I find it hard to believe there isn't a place for Arteta. I find it hard to believe he can't fit into the system in some capacity.

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Post #517181  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:00 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Goonie wrote:

Yes, I remember Iwobi and Willock doing well. But that match is a blur to me now.

Back to Özil situation today, I'm not saying he is blameless - he's needling the management just as much. Both have fallen out of love and like a bitter divorce both are trying to inflict as much hurt on the other party.
Seriously, what hurt as Özil inflicted upon Arsenal? He has not made himself unavailable to play nor has he publicly trashed the club or manager. He is abiding by his contract. We should accept the situation for what it is without blaming him - the manager does not want him in the team, and that is the sum of it.


To use an old fashioned term Old Man, he has been 'working his ticket' since 2018.


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Post #517182  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:05 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say he has possibly the best final pass of any Arsenal player I've ever seen


Sorry Haz. Everyone can have an opinion but that's just plain wrong.


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Post #517183  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:18 pm 
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If my entire life depended on someone making a through pass for a goal then Dennis Bergkamp is making that pass for me. Nobody else. Maybe Fabregas a distant distant second


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Post #517184  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:25 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
If my entire life depended on someone making a through pass for a goal then Dennis Bergkamp is making that pass for me. Nobody else. Maybe Fabregas a distant distant second


Can't stop agreeing with you today, TG.


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Post #517185  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:48 pm 
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DHD wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say he has possibly the best final pass of any Arsenal player I've ever seen


Sorry Haz. Everyone can have an opinion but that's just plain wrong.

You don't have to apologize for disagreeing, but calling it plain wrong is nonsense. His assists record speaks for itself, before his performances dropped he was an absolute chance creating machine. Not saying he's in a class of his own compared to players like Bergkamp and Fabregas, but to pretend he's not even in the conversation is ridiculous.


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Post #517186  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:05 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
DHD wrote:

Sorry Haz. Everyone can have an opinion but that's just plain wrong.

You don't have to apologize for disagreeing, but calling it plain wrong is nonsense. His assists record speaks for itself, before his performances dropped he was an absolute chance creating machine. Not saying he's in a class of his own compared to players like Bergkamp and Fabregas, but to pretend he's not even in the conversation is ridiculous.


I'm going out on a limb here but .....yes, I think I CAN say you are indeed plain wrong.


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Post #517187  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:07 pm 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
If anything it’s a power play from Özil who has just downed tools for several years to try and force Arsenal to get fed up and pay off his contract. The player we’ve seen in recent seasons bears no semblance to the one signed in his first year and when you get subbed off in a European final and joe willock comes on and looks instantly better you have to take a serious look at yourself.

The press said this week Arsenal have made several offers to him to settle his contract but he’s holding out for a complete settlement despite the fact he could get a huge pay off for doing nothing AND agree a new contract elsewhere.

The debate about Özil has become so boring he can’t go soon enough and the club have been absolutely right to drop him in the recent squads

Would that be a settlement like 40m + 1. The club are not known for financial astuteness. Pay the whole lot. .


Why should they ? The moment they did that he would go to turkey and agree a contract to earn even more money. I bet they’ve made a substantial settlement offer of probably half his contract but if you are speaking to someone who is unable of compromise and not a pragmatist then they will get nowhere.

Özil is perfectly right to see out his contract no debate about that, Arsenal are definitely right to drop him out of every squad there’s no debate about that either but it’s telling about his motivation, professionalism and ultimately him as a person that he won’t even take a settlement


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Post #517188  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:09 pm 
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DHD wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
If my entire life depended on someone making a through pass for a goal then Dennis Bergkamp is making that pass for me. Nobody else. Maybe Fabregas a distant distant second


Can't stop agreeing with you today, TG.


If the answer isn’t Bergkamp the person can’t have understood the question in the first place.

A rolls Royce of a player.


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Post #517189  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:12 pm 
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To expand ever so slightly, Haz I think the term 'assist' is misleading when comparing anyone to the legend that is DB10.

Many of Özil's assist came (past tense, note) from crosses, free kicks and corners. DB10's didn't.


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Post #517190  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:14 pm 
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DHD wrote:
I'm going out on a limb here but .....yes, I think I CAN say you are indeed plain wrong.

Well if you want to play it that way, I never told you that you COULDN'T say something, did I?


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Post #517191  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:17 pm 
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DHD wrote:
To expand ever so slightly, Haz I think the term 'assist' is misleading when comparing anyone to the legend that is DB10.

Many of Özil's assist came (past tense, note) from crosses, free kicks and corners. DB10's didn't.

Sure, there's areally strong case to make for Bergkamp on this subject, I've never pretended there isn't. He did a lot of things that Özil could only ever dream of. But on the flip side, there's a reason why Özil throughout his prime was responsible for corners and a certain type of free kicks, while Bergkamp wasn't. And it's not like every player who takes that amount of corners and free kicks rack up assists. His dead ball delivery is part of what made Özil such a good player to begin with.


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Post #517192  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:20 pm 
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If everyone voted in America, the Democrats would win the presidency every single time by a comfortable margin. They would dominate the House of Representatives and get near a super majority in the Senate. They don't because 1. They are a far flung, disparate group and getting all the factions and niches to vote in enough numbers each is like herding cats. The policies are not a one size fits all, each group may want things the others don't like.
The Republicans are far, far better at politics because they have no choice. They will be made redundant if they aren't. They fight dirty when they have to which is most times. They could teach Sun Tzu or Machiavelli a thing or two. That said, The Lincoln Project, a group of Republican strategists and advisers to past presidents and high officials and are outraged at what Trump has done to their party, have been making brutal ads against him and any one who supports him. The ads are far better than anything the Democrats have come up with. The Democrats come to a no holds barred pub bust up in Toxteth, Liverpool using Marquis of Queensbury rules.

One of the founders is the husband of Kellyanne Conway, Trump's original campaign chairperson. She had once criticized him. She caught Covid19 because of Trump. Her own daughter has taken shots against her on social media regarding her own illness.

Steve Schmidt is another founder of the The Lincoln Project, named after the greatest Republican president in US history. This is brutal. Again, they know how to get to your core fears, they find out where the bodies are buried. They find out what makes you tick and they go after it with religious zealotry. They have turned this skill onto Trump. They have forsaken their own ideological beliefs for the sake of the country and endorsed Biden. Someone they disagree with politically on just about 90 percent of the time. They are putting country over party. A rarity.

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Post #517193  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:21 pm 
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Donald Trump came for Steve Schmidt (founder of Lincoln Project) on Twitter this morning. It did not go well. This is Steve’s reply:
"You’ve never beaten me at anything.
This is our first dance. Did you like, Covita? We are so much better at this than your team of crooks, wife beaters, degenerates, weirdos and losers. You are losing.
We heard you loved Evita. You saw it so many times. Where will you live out your years in disgrace? Will you buy Jeffrey Epstein’s island? One last extra special deal from him? Or will you be drooling on yourself in a suite at Walter Reed? Maybe you will be in prison? I bet you fear that.
The Manhattan District Attorney may not be around to cover for you or your crooked kids anymore. Eliza Orlins doesn’t believe in different sets of rules for the Trumps. What about the State Attorney General? You know what you’ve done.
Oh, Donald. Who do you owe almost $500 million in personally guaranteed loans to? It's all coming down. You think you and your disgusting family are going to be in deal-flow next year? Are you really that delusional?
You are lucky Chris Wallace interrupted you after Joe Biden said you weren’t smart. You started to melt down. That’s the place that hurts the most. Right? Fred Sr., knew it. You’ve spent your whole life proving it. You aren’t very smart. You couldn’t take the SAT on your own. What was the real score? 970? We both know you know.
Are the steroids wearing off? Is the euphoria fading? Do you feel foggy? Tired? Do you ache? How is the breathing? Hmmm. Are you watching TV today? We will have some nice surprises for you. Everyone is laughing at you. You are a joke. A splendid moron turned deadly clown.
Did you watch Martha McSally in her debate against American hero, fighter pilot, test pilot, astronaut Capt. Mark Kelly? She is so embarrassed by you. She is ashamed and full of self-loathing for the choice she made in following you over the cliff. She is in free fall now. She will lose, like most of them, because of you.
We hear from the White House and the campaign everyday. They are betraying you. They are looking to get out alive and salvage careers and their names. It’s Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner vs. Donald Trump Jr., and Kimberly Guilfoyle on the inside. They are at war over scraps and who gets to command what will be the remnants of your rancid cult.
It’s almost over now. You are the greatest failure in American history. You are the worst president in American history. Disgrace will always precede your name. Your grandchildren and great-grandchildren will grow up ashamed of their names.
One day, I suppose there will be some small and not-much-visited library that bears your name. It will be the type of place where a drunk walks by, staring at the wall for a minute, before deciding it is beneath his dignity to piss on. That’s what is waiting for you.
Joe Biden is a better man. He’s smarter. He’s winning. Do you remember when you didn’t want to name Donald Trump Jr., Donald because you were worried about him being a loser named Donald? You were right about that. He is. But it is you who will be remembered as America’s greatest loser. You will be crushed in the election.
Shhhhhhhh."

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Post #517194  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:28 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
DHD wrote:
To expand ever so slightly, Haz I think the term 'assist' is misleading when comparing anyone to the legend that is DB10.

Many of Özil's assist came (past tense, note) from crosses, free kicks and corners. DB10's didn't.

Sure, there's areally strong case to make for Bergkamp on this subject, I've never pretended there isn't. He did a lot of things that Özil could only ever dream of. But on the flip side, there's a reason why Özil throughout his prime was responsible for corners and a certain type of free kicks, while Bergkamp wasn't. And it's not like every player who takes that amount of corners and free kicks rack up assists. His dead ball delivery is part of what made Özil such a good player to begin with.


My point is that crosses swung into crowded boxes, free kicks swung into crowded boxes and corners swung into crowded boxes account for a decent proportion of Özil's 'assists'. In this sense, the stats are misleading since in my opinion, they are of a lower value than a threaded pass, a through ball or a dink over the top. Now Özil certainly has produced all those in his time with us but they account for a much lower percentage of his 'assists'.

If you weight the relative skill levels of their 'assists', DB10 and Özil are not in the same league.


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Post #517195  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:28 pm 
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DHD wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say he has possibly the best final pass of any Arsenal player I've ever seen


Sorry Haz. Everyone can have an opinion but that's just plain wrong.


Walk into any pub, Arsenal or non Arsenal pub and lay that claim, they'd think you are taking the piss.
Bergkamp first and foremost. Fabregas second to Dennis only. Henry can make an argument for someone who knows how to give a final ball and should be counted among the best, but not the best.

I've seen enough clips of Brady to see why he's got deity status with people from that era.

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Post #517196  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:33 pm 
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Vieira intercepts and lays it off to Parlour or Pires who break and find bergkamp in the final third “woah how did he spot that pass!”

Over and over and over and over ......


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Post #517197  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:40 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Walk into any pub, Arsenal or non Arsenal pub and lay that claim, they'd think you are taking the piss.

Don't think people in general rate Bergkamp as highly as Arsenal fans do so I'm not sure about that claim, but nice to see you try to interact with other posters on the forum for a change.


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Post #517198  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:04 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
I think it's a bit sad that it comes to this. There's no doubt Özil is an immense football talent; I'm going to go out on a limb and say he has possibly the best final pass of any Arsenal player I've ever seen (and bear in mind that's roughly from 1995 and onwards). There's Bergkamp of course, but as much as his highlight reel assists are a joy to watch, Özil was to my mind more consistent in that regard. Henry was an underrated passer, but still obviously more of a goalscorer. Cesc was a brilliant playmaker at his best. But the sheer consistency with which Özil delivered the final pass, always accurate, always perfectly weighted, was something special.

Your post got me thinking about the ten most skilful players I’ve seen play for the club. Not the best tacklers (such as Adams), strongest in the air (possibly Radford), the quickest (like Henry), the most productive (including Vieira) or consistent (maybe Armstrong). But purely the most talented in terms of skill on the ball including control and passing ability.

Names that spring to mind immediately, in alphabetical order, are Arshavin, Bergkamp, Brady, Fabregas, George, Hudson, Marinello, Özil, Pires, Rocastle. Yet how do Ball and Limpar not get in? Or Henry, in my view the club’s greatest player? Sanchez, Wilshere, Cazorla and Nasri not quite there. Or Bentley. It’s all opinion anyway. I saw Hoddle and Gascoigne play for Arsenal in Merson’s testimonial but not competitively, otherwise they’d get in. Hoddle definitely.

Cazorla was exceptionally skilful. A player who can score free kicks with either foot is very rare indeed.

There are others who you would never dream of categorising as great (or in some cases good) players but nonetheless had exceptional natural skills. Kanu - sublime skills for such a big lanky man with huge feet. I don't think I've ever seen a player like him. Hleb - fabulous first touch and ability to create space but then spends far too long deliberating and ends up passing it backwards. Gervinho - absolutely brilliant dribbling ability and body feints and not a notion in the world how to use it....and he couldn't kick the ball properly which is just bizarre for a pro-footballer.

Then you have other players with a slightly different skill-set. Overmars, like Henry, could dribble at a fierce pace. Maintaining control of the ball at that pace is not too common. I just love natural footballers. Sadly, dribbling is disappearing from the game as everyone plays the Pep/Klopp pressing and gazillion passes.

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Post #517199  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:14 pm 
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dec wrote:
Kanu - sublime skills for such a big lanky man with huge feet. I don't think I've ever seen a player like him.

This is still one of the weirdest Arsenal goals I've seen.

There have been some cracking goals scored over the years by players who aren't necessarily considered Arsenal greats. This one by Eduardo always comes to mind when I think about great Arsenal goals. At first glance it looked like a mishit, but seeing the replay it's just a sublime finish, perfectly controlled.


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Post #517200  Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:22 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
dec wrote:
Kanu - sublime skills for such a big lanky man with huge feet. I don't think I've ever seen a player like him.



There have been some cracking goals scored over the years by players who aren't necessarily considered Arsenal greats. This one by Eduardo always comes to mind when I think about great Arsenal goals. At first glance it looked like a mishit, but seeing the replay it's just a sublime finish, perfectly controlled.


Stuck in a massive queue back in the stand because my dad insisted he wanted a tea at halftime and missed the whole thing.


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