Fixtures March 31st - Manchester City - Etihad Stadium - 3:30 Pm

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Post #519521  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:02 pm 
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Another question, is would we be markedly better if Özil was playing? It seems a foregone conclusion we would improve but would we? And assuming we did improve, how much better would we be?

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Post #519522  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:50 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Decaf wrote:
:58big-emoticons:
It also doesn't take into account the strength of the competition. The EPL has been incredibly tough, with the rise of Chelsea, then City, then the resurgence of Liverpool.

Its a bit like saying a golfer was sh*te because they didn't win a lot of majors in Tiger's heyday.


Absolutely

Trying to compare Artetas win ratio over time with a manager who was 100 years earlier! Just silliness. It’s a statistic specifically designed to highlight wengers lack of achievement over 22 years when for the first part of his reign he was the best football manager in the world.

Yes, both the numerator and denominator leave a lot to be desired.

And is longevity a bad thing? If not don't we multiply rather than divide? Number of trophies won x years served.

Still comes to zero for most Spurs managers? :42laughter:

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Post #519523  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:56 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Another question, is would we be markedly better if Özil was playing? It seems a foregone conclusion we would improve but would we? And assuming we did improve, how much better would we be?

And, in the greater scheme of things, does it really matter whether we come 8th or 17th? I just don't see Özil as being a catalyst to getting into the top 4.

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Post #519524  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:30 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:
Another question, is would we be markedly better if Özil was playing? It seems a foregone conclusion we would improve but would we? And assuming we did improve, how much better would we be?

And, in the greater scheme of things, does it really matter whether we come 8th or 17th? I just don't see Özil as being a catalyst to getting into the top 4.
I guess you are not being literal here, but it does matter because 8th and some decent cup performances would not be a disaster. We have been a pretty good cup team for long time now so a reasonable league finish and say a final would be acceptable. Any league place below halfway would worry me. As for Özil, what is there to lose in bringing him back? Not saying at all that he could get us in the top four - we need a miracle worker to do that.

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Post #519525  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:44 pm 
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I quite like these geeky stats based graphs. This one shows pressures (or pressing) per game on the x axis and the amount of times the pressing regains possession on the y axis. The the best pressing forwards are in the top right...where you see Martinelli absolutely miles ahead of anyone. This is an under 21 player graph only.

Arteta was talking about Martinelli and his pressing ability. It makes sense because without putting too much pressure on him Martinelli is the closest thing we have to this modern forward, think like a salah, Mané, son type. Flexible, pacey, skilful, athletic, mobile. All the natural attributes are there for Martinelli. He’s meant to be scheduled in for an U23 game before Xmas


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Post #519526  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:51 pm 
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Ref inconsistency again. Fred does no worse or no better than what Pépé did to the Leeds player. It is a headbutt or a clear thrust of the head at an opponents head - in my view Fred's has more force than Pépé's. Var alerts the ref to it, it is clear as day on the pitch side monitor and the ref decides it is only a yellow card. Putting aside that he didn't evn consider it a red I'm not sure I've ever seen a ref review a possible red card incident and give anything other than the red or nothing - are they allowed to give a yellow?


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Post #519527  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:56 pm 
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If Man U and PSG draw - or if Man U win, it's becoming more and more possible that PSG might finish 3rd and drop in to the Europa League. Real Madrid are also in 3rd in their group. I was thinking it could be bad news for us to have these heavyweights in Europa with us, but the reality of it at the moment is that rather than affect us it probably helps dent Spurs chances of winning it, because there are plenty of teams currently in Europa who could knock us out before we get to the likes of PSG and Madrid


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Post #519528  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:58 pm 
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That Giroud bloke looks quite handy.

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Post #519529  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:02 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
That Giroud bloke looks quite handy.

Our fans never thought so.

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Post #519530  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:14 pm 
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Funny how players we get from Chelsea are in pre-retirement mode and the ones we sell to them appear to have purpose and get better with age.

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Post #519531  Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:15 pm 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
That Giroud bloke looks quite handy.

Our fans never thought so.

All our fans? Every one?

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Post #519532  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:21 am 
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Decaf wrote:
Yes, both the numerator and denominator leave a lot to be desired.

And is longevity a bad thing? If not don't we multiply rather than divide? Number of trophies won x years served.

Still comes to zero for most Spurs managers? :42laughter:

Wasn’t it you who implied strongly that Wenger had stayed too long? I can’t recall the exact words you used but I’m certain you did, because it was you who OMOH replied to with his post mentioning Wenger’s ten trophies.

So let’s use your new system for measuring a manager’s performance. A manager who stayed at a club for fifteen years and won one trophy in that time would get 15 points (15 x 1). Then a new manager takes over and wins a single trophy in each of his first two years, then wins a double in his third season before being poached by a bigger club after three years. So he’d only get 12 points (3 x 4). So you’d consider the bloke with one trophy in fifteen years better than the guy who won four trophies in three years simply because of his longevity in the job?

Interesting way of calculating managerial performance, although I personally think it’s flawed. Of course, the trophy count alone is not the only thing that dictates how well a manager has performed and nor is it when linked to the time in post. As I’ve said.

But I do believe the time in the job offers something that should be considered in any assessment, but not in the way you do in your formula above. Myself, from the fictitious example I gave above, if I had the choice between a manager winning one trophy in fifteen years or a manager who wins four trophies in three years, my starting point would be to prefer the latter.


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Post #519533  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:35 am 
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Rich wrote:
If Man U and PSG draw - or if Man U win, it's becoming more and more possible that PSG might finish 3rd and drop in to the Europa League. Real Madrid are also in 3rd in their group. I was thinking it could be bad news for us to have these heavyweights in Europa with us, but the reality of it at the moment is that rather than affect us it probably helps dent Spurs chances of winning it, because there are plenty of teams currently in Europa who could knock us out before we get to the likes of PSG and Madrid


We need that creative midfielder in the Jan window. Will even be a struggle to survive EPL if this lot keeps under performing.

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Post #519534  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:44 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
we need a miracle worker to do that.

May I suggest....


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Post #519535  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:05 am 
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long time gooner wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
Our fans never thought so.

All our fans? Every one?

No. Some saw his purpose. But then there are the revisionists - they wanted him out and now can’t understand why we sold him.

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Post #519536  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:41 am 
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long time gooner wrote:
All our fans? Every one?


Indeed. I don't recall much if any wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth on here when he was let go. Fact is Giroud gave us an option we didn't have. A big, capable forward in the box who can get on the end of crosses and scrappy goals and couldn't be easily muscled.

It must be said, next to Bergkamp's ("almost" entirely applauded, a sole holdout remains :1laughter: ) goal against the toon, Giroud's scorpion goal is arguably the next one down on lists of Arsenal wonder goals.
Obviously, if it was attempted 100 times it might be duplicated. :42laughter:


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Post #519537  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:28 am 
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The really good point about the NLD is that the game should suit us. We can park the bus and hope for a chance on the break.

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Post #519538  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:32 am 
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If we had gotten Pep or Klopp does anyone think we would definitely turn it around? Really? Given the same resources Emery and Arteta got, would we be a lot further up the table?

This is going to sound like an excuse but it starts from the top. Are the Glazers hated anymore? I know a few Man Utd fans and you never hear the Glazers name mentioned. All the Glazers do is just write checks and shut up from what I understand. i can't believe that any one in the club likes or respects Kroenke.

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Post #519539  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:22 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
All our fans? Every one?

No. Some saw his purpose. But then there are the revisionists - they wanted him out and now can’t understand why we sold him.

There’s always mixed opinion amongst fans about anything.

Having said that I can’t recall much feeling on here for getting rid of him.

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Post #519540  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:42 am 
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Rich wrote:
Ref inconsistency again. Fred does no worse or no better than what Pépé did to the Leeds player. It is a headbutt or a clear thrust of the head at an opponents head - in my view Fred's has more force than Pépé's. Var alerts the ref to it, it is clear as day on the pitch side monitor and the ref decides it is only a yellow card. Putting aside that he didn't evn consider it a red I'm not sure I've ever seen a ref review a possible red card incident and give anything other than the red or nothing - are they allowed to give a yellow?

Just seen the Man U game this morning.

You’re dead right. The Fred headbutt is far stronger than Pépé’s. Definitely should have been a red card. Such inconsistency.

Then the irony is that he subsequently sent off for a second yellow when it didn’t even look like a foul.

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Post #519541  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:14 am 
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long time gooner wrote:
Having said that I can’t recall much feeling on here for getting rid of him.

The poster I associate most with regular criticism of Giroud was Top Gun. It was nothing remotely like his stuff on Xhaka which I see as taking moaning about players here to almost a new level. But I remember him as fairly regular critic of Giroud.


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Post #519542  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 am 
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Bernard wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
Having said that I can’t recall much feeling on here for getting rid of him.

The poster I remember as most critical of Giroud was Top Gun. It was nothing remotely like his stuff on Xhaka which I see as taking moaning about players to pretty well a new level on here. But he was critical of Giroud on a regular basis.


Partially true I liked Giroud but your not going to get anywhere with him and no adequate back up. At his most prolific he scored 16 goals in the league at a time when we had very good wingers and midfield players. He was kind of holding us back and the fact that we have great strikers now and the rest of the side is poor doesn’t all of a sudden make him a world beater.

Xhaka as you point out is a complete waste of space and the worst quality midfielder we’ve had since the 80s and early90s. My affection towards him didn’t increased when he was hugging the guy who got Pépé sent off the other week.


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Post #519543  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:00 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
The poster I remember as most critical of Giroud was Top Gun. It was nothing remotely like his stuff on Xhaka which I see as taking moaning about players to pretty well a new level on here. But he was critical of Giroud on a regular basis.


Partially true I liked Giroud but your not going to get anywhere with him and no adequate back up. At his most prolific he scored 16 goals in the league at a time when we had very good wingers and midfield players. He was kind of holding us back and the fact that we have great strikers now and the rest of the side is poor doesn’t all of a sudden make him a world beater.

Xhaka as you point out is a complete waste of space and the worst quality midfielder we’ve had since the 80s and early90s. My affection towards him didn’t increased when he was hugging the guy who got Pépé sent off the other week.

This is my take on Giroud as well. Start him as your main striker in all 38 league games, even in a team like Chelsea's and he's not good enough to win you the league. As an option off the bench or to come in and give your main striker a rest there is few better, but that wasn't the option we had with him.
Giroud missed a very good chance late on for Chelsea which would have got them a 1-0 win over Spurs, yes he then scored 4 very nice goals against Sevilla but the Spurs chance is the one that separates the best from the very good.
Of course Giroud would be very useful for us right now, I advocated trying to get him in on a 6 month loan but he's not going to spearhead a team to the title, chelsea don't need him to do that, they just need him to come in and do a job or the plan b when required. With the way the deal for Aubameyang came about there was no way we could have kept Giroud for that reason.
Perhaps Giroud is more content being a plan B for a team looking to challenge for major honours each season than being a plan B for a mid table club


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Post #519544  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:10 am 
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Giroud had the gall to be bought after RvP left after he had a great season. He was chided for not being as good. Guilty. And he was never going to be. Giroud is not a player you win the league with as your primary striker. Neither was Wiltord or Kanu and I seem to recall both did okay.

Giroud is simply another option. He was relegated to the bench, both with us and Chelsea and scored enough goals when we needed them to warrant keeping I thought. I am not sure why Giroud has to be discussed as a sole lead striker who can win you the league. You need all kinds of attacking players. Again, we have no one who can score the goals in certain situations as he can and we seem to have a few of those types of situations.

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Post #519545  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:03 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
we need a miracle worker to do that.

May I suggest....

Citizen Kane it aint...

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Post #519546  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:05 am 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
The really good point about the NLD is that the game should suit us. We can park the bus and hope for a chance on the break.
The really bad point about the NLD is that they are about ten times better than us at the moment.

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Post #519547  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:19 am 
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I've made the requisite sacrifices to the gods. I've burned incense and consulted the oracles. No need to worry lads. They have concluded that " when Arteta goes to war, he will destroy a great empire" in the NLD.

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Post #519548  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:17 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Decaf wrote:
Yes, both the numerator and denominator leave a lot to be desired.

And is longevity a bad thing? If not don't we multiply rather than divide? Number of trophies won x years served.

Still comes to zero for most Spurs managers? :42laughter:

Wasn’t it you who implied strongly that Wenger had stayed too long? I can’t recall the exact words you used but I’m certain you did, because it was you who OMOH replied to with his post mentioning Wenger’s ten trophies.

So let’s use your new system for measuring a manager’s performance. A manager who stayed at a club for fifteen years and won one trophy in that time would get 15 points (15 x 1). Then a new manager takes over and wins a single trophy in each of his first two years, then wins a double in his third season before being poached by a bigger club after three years. So he’d only get 12 points (3 x 4). So you’d consider the bloke with one trophy in fifteen years better than the guy who won four trophies in three years simply because of his longevity in the job?

Interesting way of calculating managerial performance, although I personally think it’s flawed. Of course, the trophy count alone is not the only thing that dictates how well a manager has performed and nor is it when linked to the time in post. As I’ve said.

But I do believe the time in the job offers something that should be considered in any assessment, but not in the way you do in your formula above. Myself, from the fictitious example I gave above, if I had the choice between a manager winning one trophy in fifteen years or a manager who wins four trophies in three years, my starting point would be to prefer the latter.

I was just joking. The point is that I agree with Top Gun that Wenger's first period was rather special, and that it is hard
a) to reduce that to statistics, or
b) to agree that what happened in the last few years diminishes that in any way.

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Post #519549  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:27 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:
May I suggest....

Citizen Kane it aint...

:laughing7:
We've been watching a Korean drama called 'Stranger'. It is a bit difficult to sort out who everyone is (half of them are called Kim) but its worth the effort. Gosh!

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Post #519550  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:28 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Giroud had the gall to be bought after RvP left after he had a great season. He was chided for not being as good. Guilty. And he was never going to be. Giroud is not a player you win the league with as your primary striker. Neither was Wiltord or Kanu and I seem to recall both did okay.

Giroud is simply another option. He was relegated to the bench, both with us and Chelsea and scored enough goals when we needed them to warrant keeping I thought. I am not sure why Giroud has to be discussed as a sole lead striker who can win you the league. You need all kinds of attacking players. Again, we have no one who can score the goals in certain situations as he can and we seem to have a few of those types of situations.

Yes?

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Post #519551  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:36 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
The poster I remember as most critical of Giroud was Top Gun. It was nothing remotely like his stuff on Xhaka which I see as taking moaning about players to pretty well a new level on here. But he was critical of Giroud on a regular basis.


Partially true I liked Giroud but your not going to get anywhere with him and no adequate back up. At his most prolific he scored 16 goals in the league at a time when we had very good wingers and midfield players. He was kind of holding us back and the fact that we have great strikers now and the rest of the side is poor doesn’t all of a sudden make him a world beater.

Xhaka as you point out is a complete waste of space and the worst quality midfielder we’ve had since the 80s and early90s. My affection towards him didn’t increased when he was hugging the guy who got Pépé sent off the other week.

Giroud is just the kind of guy you need to batter in a few vital goals in those tough relegations 6-pointers against the likes of Burnley.

We should buy him back as soon as the January window opens.

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Post #519552  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:54 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
No. Some saw his purpose. But then there are the revisionists - they wanted him out and now can’t understand why we sold him.

There’s always mixed opinion amongst fans about anything.

Having said that I can’t recall much feeling on here for getting rid of him.

Precisely. The consensus was that he was a good player but not good enough to be our main striker.

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Post #519553  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:32 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
long time gooner wrote:
There’s always mixed opinion amongst fans about anything.

Having said that I can’t recall much feeling on here for getting rid of him.

Precisely. The consensus was that he was a good player but not good enough to be our main striker.

My feelings exactly.

Although right now, sadly, his standard as a striker is some way above our standard as a team.

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Post #519554  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:25 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
The point is that I agree with Top Gun that Wenger's first period was rather special, and that it is hard
a) to reduce that to statistics, or
b) to agree that what happened in the last few years diminishes that in any way.

I’ve never said his first period wasn’t special. Moreover, I would call it ‘mega special’ rather than ‘rather special’.

But the latter period shouldn’t be ignored. We can’t ignore it or pretend it didn’t happen just so we can focus on the earlier period.


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Post #519555  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:45 pm 
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I like Giroud. And Ramsey. And Wilshere. But I don't want any of them back. Even if things get worse, I want the club to look at bringing in players such as Tierney, Gabriel and Partey rather than Willian and Luiz or the three aforementioned former Arsenal players.


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Post #519556  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:13 pm 
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Jamie Redknapp interview Sol Campbell (apologies for the swearing)....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1iSv44leYc


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Post #519557  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:16 pm 
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Goonie wrote:
I like Giroud. And Ramsey. And Wilshere. But I don't want any of them back. Even if things get worse, I want the club to look at bringing in players such as Tierney, Gabriel and Partey rather than Willian and Luiz or the three aforementioned former Arsenal players.

I couldn't agree more, Goonie.

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Post #519558  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:51 pm 
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Partey plays in NLD

Arteta wary but he says he wants to play.

Hope he sticks it to them.......................


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Post #519559  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:02 pm 
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Why aren’t we in red and white - yet again?

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Post #519560  Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:06 pm 
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I just can’t warm to the co-commentator Carney.

BT using her for every Arsenal match; she’s a bit obvious with her comments.

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