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Post #472641  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:43 am 
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Decaf wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:
Hodd, using American sports as my reasoning and that we live in the electronic age, I have to imagine that identifying good young players that haven't been noticed that much has gotten exponentially more difficult.

I remember I had to hear about how good teenage basketball players and American football players were until they got to univeristy. Now, on youtube they have their own highlight series. Its extended down to middle school and now elementary school.

A standout 7 year old in most sports here are being immediately tracked, statewide, regionally and sometimes nationally.

Basically, there really aren't any more hidden gems. They are unearthed and known. The exceptions are youth that have improved a lot in a short time (which would also correspond with growth spurts).

How intense is scouting these days?

So pointless speculating about the likes of Fitov Klée?


Well I always prefer to go local and I like what I'm hearing about Antony Goode from Leyton Orient's youth scheme.


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Post #472642  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:45 am 
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Decaf wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:

I didn't know he was deemed a legend as a player.

He would rate about 6 on the Pantheon scale ... somewhere between Wiltord and Ljunberg. Nowhere near the Henry level, but way better than even the most legendary tea-lady.


Gus Caesar. And who was that other player, Bernard, whose mum conferred legendary status upon him?


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Post #472643  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:25 am 

Daz wrote:
Decaf wrote:
He would rate about 6 on the Pantheon scale ... somewhere between Wiltord and Ljunberg. Nowhere near the Henry level, but way better than even the most legendary tea-lady.

Gus Caesar. And who was that other player, Bernard, whose mum conferred legendary status upon him?

It was Omar Riza, although I don't know if his Mum does. Maybe she doesn't. The point was simply that it's for the individual to confer legendary status on someone because as far as I'm aware there's no accepted criteria in awarding it. After all, both you and Exiled said you saw Gus Caesar as an Arsenal legend whereas Hazuki and I didn't. If Riza's mum wants to, at least her son didn't cost Arsenal a cup final defeat.


  
 
 
Post #472644  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:30 am 
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Pretty sure I didn't talk specifically about Caesars status as a legend. The points I made was more general, about how not anyone can be called a legend just because there is no complete list of criteria that everybody agrees with.


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Post #472645  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:11 am 

I'm pretty sure you said you didn't consider Caesar a legend.


  
 
 
Post #472646  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:41 am 
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Bernard wrote:
I'm pretty sure you said you didn't consider Caesar a legend.
Gaius Cassius Longinus was no fan.

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Post #472647  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
I'm pretty sure you said you didn't consider Caesar a legend.

I think you're confusing me with you.


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Post #472648  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
The point was simply that it's for the individual to confer legendary status on someone because as far as I'm aware there's no accepted criteria in awarding it.


Ah yes you're still persisting in your error which is unlike you.


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Post #472649  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:09 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Bernard wrote:
I'm pretty sure you said you didn't consider Caesar a legend.
Gaius Cassius Longinus was no fan.


Render unto Bernard that which is Bernard's.


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Post #472650  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Sky reporting that the Ox is likely to leave. As much as I like him when he's really on his game, he's still horribly inconsistent and injury prone. That first touch is always a 50/50. Ox has scored a total of 20 goals in all his time at Arsenal. Theo for all the hate towards him scored 19 just last season, and wasn't even a regular.


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Post #472651  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
kiwipete wrote:
I typed in hurling and somehow got gaelic football ....... Tipperary v Galway
.

What's the difference? Is it that they are allowed to bring sticks to the fight in the former?


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Post #472652  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:20 pm 

Daz wrote:
Bernard wrote:
The point was simply that it's for the individual to confer legendary status on someone because as far as I'm aware there's no accepted criteria in awarding it.

Ah yes you're still persisting in your error which is unlike you.

Can you tell me where there is a generally accepted criteria for counting a player as a club legend? I'd like to read it. If you are so firm in that opinion, there must be one after all.


  
 
 
Post #472653  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Sabir wrote:
Sky reporting that the Ox is likely to leave. As much as I like him when he's really on his game, he's still horribly inconsistent and injury prone. That first touch is always a 50/50. Ox has scored a total of 20 goals in all his time at Arsenal. Theo for all the hate towards him scored 19 just last season, and wasn't even a regular.

Would like to keep him, but wouldn't be devastated if he left either. We're in a bit of a tricky spot with regards to homegrown players though. If we were to make a 25 man squad with what we've currently got (excluding players who are not in the squad for the Australia trip), I make it 24 players over the age of 21 as of 1/1-2017. 9 of those are homegrown, but that includes Ox, Wilshere and Walcott whose respective futures at the club is in question.

Only one more place available for a non-homegrown player over 21, but then again Cazorla might not be included if he's out for the season.


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Post #472654  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Bernard, if you go back in forum history a couple of years you will both see that I didn't say Gus Caesar wasn't a legend, and find a response to the point you've just made.


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Post #472655  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:58 pm 

Hazuki wrote:
Bernard, if you go back in forum history a couple of years you will both see that I didn't say Gus Caesar wasn't a legend, and find a response to the point you've just made.

I'll have to take your word for it that you didn't then, because there's no way I'm going to go back to find the debate. My forum search engine presumably doesn't work as well as your one. If you didn't I apologise, but I am surprised as I genuinely thought you did say you didn't see Caesar as a legend. Do you then?

I also therefore won't be able to find the accepted criteria for counting players as club legends, if you're saying there is one. I presume it isn't just on the forum though, so where is it?

If I was drawing up the criteria myself, I'd include things like appearances, my perception of a player's quality, my perception of how they represented the club, and the time they spent at the club for starters. Maybe even a one-off contribution as I've heard Linighan and Morrow described as legends, although I don't see them as such. There are no doubt other things that could influence my judgement. But I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to accept the ones I just gave.

For example, how somebody left the club may come into it for some people. Although I count van Persie as a legend because of how I perceive his quality as a player, I've little doubt many don't because of the way he left. Campbell would be the same for many Tottenham fans. There's no way in a million years I'd consider Caesar an Arsenal legend, but some have said they do because the term 'legend' may not always or necessarily be a positive. But I think the term has developed in football in such a way that it is used as a positive description. If I'm in the car and Talksport introduced an interviewee as a club legend, I would automatically see it as a positive.

There is also the issue that it's a term bandied around for many players these days. Didn't Babu once point out that Omar Riza did represent a team called 'Arsenal legends'? Arsenal, as a club, have struck me as calling practically any former player a legend. I still remember my surprise at some of the names who walked round the pitch as legends after the last game at Highbury, even though I can't recall who they were. In some ways, perhaps it's arguably become a slightly cheapened term. So if Omar Riza's mother wants to call her son a legend, like whoever set Babu's team up, who cares? Not me.


  
 
 
Post #472656  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Sabir wrote:
Sky reporting that the Ox is likely to leave. As much as I like him when he's really on his game, he's still horribly inconsistent and injury prone. That first touch is always a 50/50. Ox has scored a total of 20 goals in all his time at Arsenal. Theo for all the hate towards him scored 19 just last season, and wasn't even a regular.


I think that's a little unfair, Sab, considering he was arguably our best player in the second half of last season.

We don't have many players with his pace, athleticism or dribbling ability and he's pretty decent technically. Hence, he gets asked to play in several positions during the season. His versatility is important to us although like many so-called "utility" players he probably would prefer a settled position.

I think it would be a mistake to sell him. The wingback role may be increasinly important if we persist with the three CB system and he can cover that role reasonably well.

I can understand him wanting to be an automatic starter, though, but I'm not sure CM is that position just yet.


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Post #472657  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:33 pm 
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This is of course Goya's famous painting of futile mutual destruction in a bog called "Un debate con Bernardo".


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Post #472658  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Of course Gus Caesar is an Arsenal legend.


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Post #472659  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:27 pm 
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No need to apologize Bernard, there were a lot of people involved in that debate. I still don't understand why there has to be an 'accepted' criteria. The definition of the word is what it is, no matter if people disagree.


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Post #472660  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:33 pm 
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And before anyone jumps in - it's not even pre season yet! Nothing is happening.

If you want a new Arsenal topic, Lacazette has been given the cursed no 9 shirt. Will he do better or worse than Park?


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Post #472661  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Very strong statement from Wenger regarding Sanchez. As long as Sanchez doesn't start trouble I don't see how we can back out of it.


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Post #472662  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:21 pm 

John wrote:
Of course Gus Caesar is an Arsenal legend.

Why? Because he was so bad? Does that make Eddie McGoldrick an Arsenal legend too? How about Jeff Blockley? Or because he gave a cup final goal away? Wouldn't that make Ian Ure an Arsenal legend? Does it have to be cup final goals? Do you blame Clichy for slipping in a 4-4 draw against Tottenham? If so, you presumably see him as an Arsenal legend.


  
 
 
Post #472663  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Maybe because despite having an incredibly short Arsenal career Mr Ceaser's only memorable contribution was a horribly inept performance which resulted in Arsenal losing a final. At least Eddie McGoldrick had a mediocre career at the top level and can proudly show his grandkids his wonder goal he scored in Europe.


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Post #472664  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
Very strong statement from Wenger regarding Sanchez. As long as Sanchez doesn't start trouble I don't see how we can back out of it.


I suspect the only way he can get away with selling Sanchez is if someone makes an offer that is simply too good to refuse or we sign Mbappe. Both of which seem unlikely at this juncture.


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Post #472665  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:41 pm 
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socrates wrote:
Hazuki wrote:
Very strong statement from Wenger regarding Sanchez. As long as Sanchez doesn't start trouble I don't see how we can back out of it.


I suspect the only way he can get away with selling Sanchez is if someone makes an offer that is simply too good to refuse or we sign Mbappe. Both of which seem unlikely at this juncture.



That's was my thinking too but then I just read this quote from Wenge and you can't help but roll your eyes...
“I am open to get some more signings, but it is not easy to find the players who can strengthen our squad, because we have top-quality players."


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Post #472666  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:55 pm 

Bored wrote:
Maybe because despite having an incredibly short Arsenal career Mr Ceaser's only memorable contribution was a horribly inept performance which resulted in Arsenal losing a final. At least Eddie McGoldrick had a mediocre career at the top level and can proudly show his grandkids his wonder goal he scored in Europe.

But when I hear someone referred to as a football legend outside the forum, it always seems to mean something positive. I'd agree the dictionary definition of legend includes an element of notoriety, but is that how's it's generally taken in football?


  
 
 
Post #472667  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Probably not generally


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Post #472668  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:11 pm 

Bored wrote:
Probably not generally

I'd say it's routinely beyond 'not generally'. When I hear people called legends for their club outside the forum, I don't ever remember it being used as a polite way to say he was crap.


  
 
 
Post #472669  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Bored wrote:
Maybe because despite having an incredibly short Arsenal career Mr Ceaser's only memorable contribution was a horribly inept performance which resulted in Arsenal losing a final. At least Eddie McGoldrick had a mediocre career at the top level and can proudly show his grandkids his wonder goal he scored in Europe.

Exactly.


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Post #472670  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Bored wrote:
Maybe because despite having an incredibly short Arsenal career Mr Ceaser's only memorable contribution was a horribly inept performance which resulted in Arsenal losing a final. At least Eddie McGoldrick had a mediocre career at the top level and can proudly show his grandkids his wonder goal he scored in Europe.


But did sod all else. I seriously think mcgoldrick was the worst player I've seen play for Arsenal. When I say that I mean regular established players not prospects, youth etc. We paid a million quid for him and he was complete toilet.

Yep mcgoldrick the worst arsenal player of all time. Fact


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Post #472671  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
kiwipete wrote:
I typed in hurling and somehow got gaelic football ....... Tipperary v Galway
.

What's the difference? Is it that they are allowed to bring sticks to the fight in the former?


All jokes aside young Decaf ......I see appeal in both codes , a lot of Kiwis derisively refer to Aussie Rules which is similar to Gaelic football as "aerial ping pong' but when you have crowds at the Melbourne Cricket ground of 80,000 for a club match 100,000 for a final and in the Irish case 50 something thousand for the same you have to think maybe if I removed the blinkers there might be something in this .

One thing's for sure neither Irish code is short of action ; there is always going to be something to cheer about .

The same can't be said for some of the dross Arsenal served up last season .


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Post #472672  Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:46 pm 
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kiwipete wrote:
Decaf wrote:
What's the difference? Is it that they are allowed to bring sticks to the fight in the former?


All jokes aside young Decaf ......I see appeal in both codes , a lot of Kiwis derisively refer to Aussie Rules which is similar to Gaelic football as "aerial ping pong' but when you have crowds at the Melbourne Cricket ground of 80,000 for a club match 100,000 for a final and in the Irish case 50 something thousand for the same you have to think maybe if I removed the blinkers there might be something in this .

One thing's for sure neither Irish code is short of action ; there is always going to be something to cheer about .

The same can't be said for some of the dross Arsenal served up last season .

There's no shortage of dross in hurling and Gaelic football, Kiwi. Over the last 7/8 years the football has become ultra-defensive. Some games make tippy tappy look like a thrill a minute. Hurling is still very expansive and the skill levels are through the roof since they changed the ball 10/15 years ago. Both codes suffer a great deal from one-sided matches though and the structure of the hurling championship in particular is bonkers. A bit like your gripes with rugby, there is a fair bit that could be improved.

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Post #472673  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:13 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:

Yep mcgoldrick the worst arsenal player of all time. Fact


I've seen Blockley and Matthews as regulars and I really don't think it would be easy to argue against that - someone else can have that hill.

Didn't he say in an interview that he wouldn't cross the street to pee on an Arsenal fan on fire or something?

Funny thing is whenever his name comes up I remember when he signed. The talking with real people before we had the internet type thing I had with mates on it would probably have ended up with a post like this:

"That's the end of Nutty then. No way have we spent that money on a bit part player and he isn't good enough to play up front for us. Good engine, good left foot and can do the overlap no problem but people talking about George buying him to play wide midfield forget the quality he always plays there and probably still think Bros are cool*. He's a replacement for Nutty."

He wasn't good enough for the kind of football George had led us to expect. OK, we didn't know that the gaffer had completely given up on that yet and the joyous triumphalism of the trophies in the first half of GG would turn into the dour slog to the (no less enjoyable...in the end) trophies of the second half.

You did make a comment about him being our greatest ever manager. No, that was George Allison. But he is most certainly up there. The thing is though they (Allison, Graham, Chapman, Wenger and the ongoing thought deserves Mee to be added) all faced absolutely unique problems that I can't think any of the others could have dealt with as well.

AG asked about George and his legacy regarding the spuds. I know he won't read the reply (nudge nudge etc) but I remember it all as being very panto. Agent George. He even got them to win the League Cup which for ages was their only trophy outside of Norwich and just added to the sh*ts and giggles. Yeah, always a legend.

Oh, Bernard et al. Legends. Omer Riza. Now I may be wrong here but I think that started because there was a 'celeb and legends' team playing against some local charity fundy team and he wa in it and 'legend?' came up. I'm pointing this out because I'm not sure his mother ever called him a legend...

Back to GG. Best JJ photo ever. Love this.




* sorry John.


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Post #472674  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:59 am 
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I need a pretty car of a certain age to put this on. If this is my last ever post* I will this to Kiwi in the belief he will provide it a fitting backdrop.



*not in the plan but if it happens what the heck.


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Post #472675  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:03 am 
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Stan.


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Post #472676  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:10 am 
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Gus Casear IS an Arsenal legend. Independent of anything we might thing about his quality and because of the meaning of the word. His name has passed down generations due to his exploits and has become synonymous with a particular moment in our history. In Caesar's case this is condensed to one match I'm particular. He has entered collective memory and discourse in a way that Riza has not. The degree to which we measure this is akin to a beard: there is no precise point where one more hair makes a beard, but there is fairly broad agreement as to whether somebody has one or not.

The problem you are struggling with, Bernard, and let me help you out here, is that you have redefined legend to mean "an outstanding player". You are right that is a matter of opinion, the problem is that it is not what legend actually means.


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Post #472677  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:18 am 
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Hey Daz, regarding Gus Caesar, I always think of Nick Hornby's brilliant assessment of his career in Fever Pitch, which only adds to the legend of Gus. Here's the final paragraph:

'Even so, I think there is a real resonance in the Gus Caesar story: it contains a terrifying lesson for any aspirants who think that their own unshakeable sense of destiny (and again, this sense of destiny is not to be confused with arrogance - Gus Caesar was not an arrogant footballer) is significant. Gus must have known he was good, just as any pop band who has ever played the Marquee know they are destined for Madison Square Garden and an NME front cover, and just as any writer who has sent off a completed manuscript to Faber and Faber knows that he is two years away from the Booker. You trust that feeling with your life, you feel the strength and determination it gives you coursing through your veins like heroin ... and it doesn't mean anything at all.'

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Post #472678  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:31 am 

Exiled wrote:
Oh, Bernard et al. Legends. Omer Riza. Now I may be wrong here but I think that started because there was a 'celeb and legends' team playing against some local charity fundy team and he wa in it and 'legend?' came up. I'm pointing this out because I'm not sure his mother ever called him a legend...

I'm pretty sure it was Babu who highlighted that Omar Riza had played in some charity game as an Arsenal legend. I simply brought his mother up because I can't imagine many others, if any others, would see him as an Arsenal legend.


  
 
 
Post #472679  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:00 am 

Daz wrote:
The problem you are struggling with, Bernard, and let me help you out here, is that you have redefined legend to mean "an outstanding player". You are right that is a matter of opinion, the problem is that it is not what legend actually means.

I genuinely don't think I do, certainly not on its own. I actually see Perry Groves as an Arsenal legend (just), and 'outstanding player' is the last term I'd use to describe him. Having said that, I do firmly think that when someone is called a legend in football, it is routinely used in a positive sense about the player. You may not think it should be but when I hear a player described as a legend, as far as I can make out it's practically always meant in a positive sense. So I certainly suspect many people do use their own perception of someone's quality as a player, which of course is often debatable anyway, as one of the factors that define legends. I genuinely believe you would be in a minority, quite possibly a small one, of Arsenal fans who see Caesar as a legend. Doesn't mean you and John are wrong and he isn't. But I'd be surprised if many do because of the positivity now associated with the term.

Overall, I suggest it's grown to be such a loose term with no accepted criteria for judging football legends, that it's inevitable people are going to make their own individual judgments on particular players. From that, a player's perceived quality is definitely not the only factor that can influence the judgement. As well as being ultra close to the top of the tree regarding great Arsenal central defenders, I reckon Sol Campbell would be equally close to that status for Tottenham. But my guess would be that there are very few of their fans who see him as a Tottenham legend (just from the fair number I've spoken to about him, I can say 'none' but that doesn't mean there aren't any at all), even though they all accept he was a brilliant player for them. Hence my point that there are a number of things that may contribute to legendary status. I mentioned a few that came into my mind yesterday and while a player's perceived (and debatable) quality was one, it wasn't the only one. Moreover, if I thought about it some more I'd probably think of some other factors as well, in addition to those I mentioned yesterday.


  
 
 
Post #472680  Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:47 am 
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Well, the simple answer to that is that a lot of people are wrong about what legend means.

As for your reply to John, it's a bit more flexible than that. You can become a legend because of how useless you are, but not every useless player will become a legend. You can become a legend because of how great you are, but not every great player will become a legend.

Growing up as an Arsenal supporter, I heard about Gus Caesar from an early age. I read Fever Pitch, I've heard him mentioned by older Arsenal supporters etc. Outside this forum (where it's more of a running gag than a serious debate), I've not heard anyone talk about that slip from Clichy since it happened. That's the difference.


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