I don’t think there is any way Arteta can get top 4 with this squad. Much more likely to win a trophy as that just requires one off good performances.
Expectations have to be adjusted, we’re nowhere near Liverpool and City. Chelsea have spent £250m and will make top 4 easily based on their fore power and shear depth of squad. Spurs and Leicester have better squads than us, Man U are a bit dodgy in defence and can’t find a good midfield but have so much more going forward so will finish above us I’m sure. We’re really struggling.
It doesn’t feel like it can be fixed in any way but the transfer market. We still need a right sided CB, at least 3 new midfielders, a pair of striker/wide forward types. And I’m not even sure whether those that then get demoted from the first 11 due to those signings are even good enough for a squad place!

Top 4 ? No chance forget it, we won’t get in the top 6

Who is going to slip up for us ?

Chelsea have ziyech, mount and havertz. No chance

Liverpool and city well it doesn’t need explaining.

Spurs have players like Kane, son and even Moura who walk into out side

Leicester have solidity, work rate and Maddison and vardy winning games on the break.

Top 4? Bob hope and no hope

I’m a little less willing to blame Aubameyang’s poor form on the midfielders not giving him service. Is he making himself available to receive the ball in dangerous positions? Not as far as I can see. Indeed, Saka did put him through on goal yesterday and he fluffed it.

I noticed Hazuki (I think, if it wasn’t apologies to him and whoever it was) mentioned Aubameyang’s form dipped dramatically around the time he renewed his contract. Look, myself I’m confident that’s no more than a coincidence and his poor form since isn’t linked to the contract renewal. But on other Arsenal chat rooms I’ve seen more suspicious suggestions that he was previously playing for a huge pay rise and once he got it, he’s now doing an Özil. He is, after all, the same sort of age as Özil at only eight months younger.

I’ve also seen the same suggestion about Willian’s form, another player around the same sort of age at two months older than Özil, so nine months older than Aubameyang (the slight discrepancy in my comparison of Özil and Aubameyang’s ages in the last paragraph is due to them being born at different times in the month). Bloody excellent at Chelsea, so far bloody useless at Arsenal. I suppose flying out to the Middle East for a posh steak and chips will raise suspicions about his attitude but as I’ve said before, Willian’s technical ability will not have changed one iota from when he was a Chelsea player a few months ago. But gooner7 has claimed he’s in retirement mode at Arsenal. I hope he isn’t, and I don’t think Aubameyang is either, though I do accept Özil probably is.

Myself, I still think the most likely explanation for our form is not having loads of rubbish players. We simply don’t, that suggestion is laughable fiction in my humble opinion. I reckon it’s more likely linked to the style of play Arteta has adopted. I can understand why he did it too. We’ve stopped conceding so many goals despite the Villa game. He needs to be given the time to link a strong defence with a more potent attack.

The key for me is telling players to start playing with more energy and getting the ball forward quicker. So to play more like Liverpool than Manchester City although I accept Arteta worked under, and was presumably greatly influenced, by Guardiola and not Klopp. I have to admit, I never really enjoyed watching Barcelona under Guardiola. Wonderful players, a brilliant side - I just didn’t enjoy watching them. I don’t find this short passing (tiki-taka as it’s commonly called) style of football entertaining, and it was Wenger’s adoption of it with inferior players to Barcelona (we never had Messi, Iniesta and Xavi) that really turned me against him.

Ironically our lack of energy is where I firmly believe Guendouzi has been a serious loss because getting all over the pitch is exactly what he did. Yet some people took it upon themselves to criticise him for it as a lack of positional sense or discipline. Personally, as people know I’m a big Guendouzi fan and I think he could have been coached to play with more discipline while still giving us more energy in midfield. Sadly, Arteta doesn’t like him so realistically, Guendouzi has played his last game for the club. But if our midfield is over-static, I reckon he’s being missed.

Back in our rightful place at the top of players unavailable through injury or suspension, luiz, Marí, chambers, kolasinac, partey, Elneny, Saka, willian, Pépé

Take a look at Chelsea’s side from Saturday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54941197

How many of our players would get in that first 11? I reckon maybe 3 at most. Gabriel, Leno and maybe maybe Bellerin.

We are miles away from where we need to be.

Top 6 is likely the best we can hope for. As it stands only West Ham, Palace and Villa are the only sides above us I feel comfortable in saying we will finish above.
If we get lucky with ties and big boys get knocked out, a domestic cup. We aren't good enough to win the Europa. A semi or final maybe...if we get lucky. If we pick up a game changer in the transfer window that may change things but is unlikely to happen.

But this group of players haven't shown themselves anywhere near capable of getting us to where we want to be, a number of them have been at the club for quite a few years under 3 different managers and are only regressing. These players got 8th place last year, so it can't be mostly Arteta and his tactics that doesn't have us in the top 4. Of course he isn't blameless, I agree that he needs to find a way to make us more potent in attack but I think we'd have a damn sight better chance at top 4 with 4-5 new players than the best manager in the world with this same group of players.
If we assume Klopp is the best manager in the world right now what would he do with the current squad to play his exciting brand of high energy relentless attacking football? He'd sell most of them because they aren't capable of playing it - it is exactly what he did at Liverpool but it took him 4-5 years to turn it in to what it is now. I think only 3 players have survived from the entire squad he inherited.
Or, if Arteta had Lampard's summer budget of £250m - which is £175m more than Arteta had. Aouar could have been bagged for £50m, another £25m CB, a new £40m striker, another £25m holding mid and a £30m winger. Obviously that isn't realistic for us and there is no guarantee of their success but we are so far away from having the players good enough to compete for top 4 it is laughable

I saw a headline that said this was a turning point for Pépé....one way or another. It could be true, is this the final rocket he needs to stop sulking and putting in half baked performances and actually knuckle down - or does he decide it's too hard and everything is against him and drift off in to a knock-down transfer out of the club back to a mid table french club? Either way I'm far more looking forward to seeing Nelson (hopefully) playing on the right wing in the next 3 league games.

It will be a nice change but Nelson had ten decent minutes of energy but hit a load of fullbacks with his crosses mostly.

Ziyech he ain’t

Rich, we can play with a higher tempo with our current players. Individual games have shown that. Manchester United at home last season, the Chelsea cup final both spring to mind but there have been others. I just don’t accept our players are quite as bad as some make out. And I definitely think with Arsenal’s current squad, Klopp WOULD get more out of them. I’m not denying he wouldn’t bring others in over time. Of course he would. That’s what managers do. But I firmly believe that with exactly the same group of players currently at Arsenal, Klopp would get more out of them.

If you or anyone wants to see a huge turnaround in players at Arsenal, maybe moans would be better directed at Kroenke. There isn’t a huge difference between his and Abramovich’s wealth after all. And if Stan’s wife would lend him a few bob, as a couple the Kroenke’s are significantly richer than Abramovich.

That I agree with Top Gun.

We can’t. We just can’t and that’s the problem. This is not a team capable of playing any one touch football what so ever. Those games have been won by individual moments and being organised

If you gave Arteta 175 million he would sign 2 number 8 type midfielders and a number 10.

The idea klopp can get more from Xhaka is just laughable, he’d bin him in a heartbeat.

But we can do. It has happened in individual games. It really has. The Chelsea cup final. I suspect you’re right that Klopp would get rid of Xhaka. But he had a fine game in the Chelsea final, so I even think Klopp would be able to get more out of him.

It hasn’t, when was the last time we played slick one touch football think ala Jack Wilsheres goal againest Norwich ? We haven’t Bernard.

The chelsea cup final was won by 2 individual moments. First being a lofted excellent pass from Tierney and Aubameyangs slick finish. The city win in the semi ? The very same ball from Tierney won us that tie too. We aren’t winning these games in the midfield battle with fast passing and tempo.

We played that final with a good tempo. We did, full stop. As we did against Manchester United at home last season, and in the first half of the home game against Chelsea last season (the second half dropped off).

I’m not saying it happens often enough but it has occasionally happened. That means with the players currently available it is possible. If Klopp was our manager, even with exactly the same players as we currently have, I firmly believe he would get us playing with a higher tempo even before he’s able to replace loads of them.

It’s not. Arsenal are now approaching 500minutes in the league since they last scored in open play. In certain games we may look competitive but we are not dominating the midfield battle, cutting teams open with fast tempo and passing and we are currently 11th in the table and look like a team that should be 11th.

Joe willock as a number 10 for arsenal ? I mean I like the kid but that’s complete poverty at this level of the game. As rich points out many of these players have now failed for successive managers.

The hard truth is some of the guys we have are sadly not of the level required.

Nketiah, willock and Nelson should be on loan to championship sides at this stage in their career not bailing out the arsenal first team. Xhaka, a perpetual failure, ceballos a midfielder Madrid thought wasn’t good enough to sit on their bench and were not even fussed about getting a loan fee for. Chuck in an expensive and talented but exceptionally inconsistent winger and a 32 year old last final contract and it’s the perfect receipe for disaster.

Transfers and horse trading get us out of this not coaching.

Probably. And the same with Willock, who may find it hard to translate his excellent form against the likes Dundalk. But it would be good to see them run of starts, nevertheless. They are unlikely to make us worse at the this stage!

Hi Bernard, I agree Klopp would get more from them, but only because he's a vastly experienced and very good manager, but I still think he'd struggle to get this team where we want it to be. There are easily 6-8 better first 11's in the league. Arteta is a rookie manager and will make mistakes but the hand he's been dealt is terrible. I've always said the easiest thing to do in football is to make a team more solid and harder to beat, it is why I used to bemoan Wenger's lack of ability to do this because even journeymen league 1 defences could be more organised than we were for many years. Arteta has done that but it has come at the expense of the attack. If he releases the shackles we swing the other way.

I don't think a huge turnover of players isn't possible, the money isn't anywhere near what Chelsea have but over the last 3 seasons we've seen huge numbers of players leave and join Arsenal
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-arse ... /verein/11
Have a look at the ins and outs of what we would consider 1st team players in this website. More turnover than any big 6 club for sure.
It can and will have to be done again in the next transfer windows. Özil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Luiz and Ceballos are all out of contract with us in the summer. That is 5 gone. Then Lacazette, Chambers, Kolasinac, Nketiah will have only 1 more year - I can only see Nketiah and Chambers signing new deals but it might be none of them do. We also have Torreira and Guendouzi on loan and Elneny who could all easily leave. If the club make the right decisions on the outgoings even allowing for a loan for Nketiah that is 12 players gone. We have a bloated squad so you don't need to replace with 12 but there needs to be dramatic movement and I think there will be. We'd have seen a lot more this summer without Covid

I feel to have come full circle.

Back when I first started supporting Arsenal in the early sixties we were an ordinary mid table team and had to live off stories of past glories. We were even managed by a player in his first (only) management stint.

Rich, I’ve never said the existing players can get us to where we want it to be. However, where we want it to be is probably different. You and others may have different “where we want it to be” hopes than me.

I want to see Arsenal win the Champions League before I pop my clogs (hopefully a few decades yet). Do I think our current squad could do that? No I don’t. But under Klopp, who you agree would get more out of them than Arteta, I think there is some sort of chance he’d qualify us for next season’s competition with a fourth place finish. Not saying he’d guarantee it. But I think there is a possibility he could.

It being so long since we scored in open play could have as much to do with our style of football than the quality of players. I do agree with you that Nketiah, Willock and Nelson should ideally be on loan. However, I will remind you that Ceballos has 11 full caps for the Spanish national team and made 56 appearances in the two seasons he’s spent with Real Madrid’s squad (he was only 23 when he joined us on loan from them). Suggests to me he must have something about him, even if he’s not considered up to replacing Kroos there, who I consider one of the best midfielders in Europe.

Another one of our youth players is making strides at other teams, Yunus Musah is now in the Valencia first team after joining them at the start of last season. We couldn't get him to sign a deal and he saw a route to first team football at Valencia - to be fair he's been proven right. We can't keep them all but we must get better at sell on clauses, buy back clauses or getting fees for these players in the first place. There are so many now that even with any sort of clause we'd be quids in or about to be quids in. Balogun may be the next one we can't keep.

Mkhitaryan has scored 14 league goals in 30 league appearances for Roma from his loan and permanent transfer this season. sigh

Saka would

Your probably dropping ziyech then. I probably wouldn’t suggest that’s logical. Also remember they have mount and havertz not even in that line up. If we had those 3 I think Saka would be used sparingly

They've got Pulisic to come back in as well. It would be more interesting to ask a Chelsea fan who from our entire squad makes their best 11? I'd bet their quite happy with their new GK and wouldn't swap him for Leno, I'd also bet they would take James over Bellerin - James looks far more exciting going forward. Gabriel I think they would take considering their CB are the weakest part of their squad. They would hopefully find a space for Partey over Kovacic and Jorginho but not over Kante ad they wouldn't take any of our forwards. Shows how much stronger they've got with that £1/4 billion splurge and more remarkable how we beat them in the Cup final

I think we have to remember that the same player can perform at different levels at alternative clubs. We’ve seen that with Willian. Outstanding at Chelsea (the initial reaction to his signing was generally very positive) and so far disappointing at Arsenal. It is not impossible that some Arsenal players may simply raise their game at Chelsea, beyond the level is it with us.

Seriously

There’s no level Xhaka could raise his game to that would make you drop Kanté,

There’s no level Ceballos can raise his game to that means your dropping Havertz

Yes, my point is very serious because it’s undeniably true. I wasn’t talking about Xhaka raising his game to Kante’s level or Ceballos raising his game to Havertz’s level if they joined Chelsea. It’s you with the obsession (an unhealthy obsession in my view) about those players. I was talking generally, and what I said is correct. Willian has proved it. I see it as highly likely that a number of our players would perform at a different level (some better and maybe some worse) at Chelsea to how they perform at Arsenal.

A bit of advice that I mean as friendly advice. I would seriously try and calm down about your pet hates. Xhaka has been a long-term one, but Ceballos seems the ‘new boy on the block’ in that regard. Take a deep breath and stop letting loose about them so often. Your criticisms of both, if more occasional, would strike me at least as a bit more rational if you did.

The only thing Willian has proved is that we have no decent midfield players apart from partey

Well he was decent as Chelsea.

Some alarming stats about our midfield. This is not to put any blame at Willock, I think he's better as a No.8 coming from deep rather than as a No.10 at the head of a midfield 3

Granit Xhaka completed zero passes to Joe Willock and just three to Ceballos.
Willock didn't complete a single pass to Xhaka, just two to Ceballos and none to Aubameyang.
The player with the most completed passes to Pierre Emerick Aubameyang in the Leeds match was Bernd Leno with five.

I can't think the game plan for the midfield was don't pass it to Aubameyang so there is a skill gap in there no matter what the tactics

Exactly.

Nailed it

It would be interesting to compare the areas Willian received the ball when playing at Chelsea last year vs where he is receiving it for us. and also looking how many men the opposition have behind the ball on average each time he receives it. I think it would highlight the problems getting the ball to these players who can do damage. Willian needs to ball quickly in the final third, he has a very quick drop of the shoulder and whip it in style of wing play from the right and a drift inside, create half a yard and shoot when coming from the left - did both countless times for Chelsea, but his starting position for nearly all of this would be in the opponents final third 1 v 1 with the fullback. He gets the ball nearer the half way line for us

Another stat to follow on from above........Saka (3) completed more passes to Aubameyang in the game against Leeds than Willian, Pépé and Willock combined (2).

That was exactly my point. Players can perform at different levels for alternative clubs. Willian was good at Chelsea and has so far been disappointing at Arsenal. Hence I’m not sure why you questioned my suggestion.

At chelsea he had midfielders like Kanté feeding him.. at Arsenal he has Xhaka so the ball arrives on the halfway line 10 minutes later after Xhaka has trapped it 5 times.

It or that could also highlight the difficulties he’s having in performing in Arsenal’s system of play.

An interesting stat, just proves at the end of the day this is about individual quality and ability. When your star player receives the ball more from his keeper and a substitute than the team you have to question it.