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Post #523921  Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:38 pm 
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socrates wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
I don’t get this point about conservative substitutions. Yesterday he brought on ceballos, Lacazette and smith Rowe. Is the suggestion that was wrong ?

What did people want him to do bring on a striker and take off a defender?

Every game he doesn’t bring on Martinelli he seems to get stick for it but that player is just as off form as Willian.


You can't honestly think we gave that game our best shot yesterday (excuse the pun). We were losing 1-0 and I don't think we registered a shot on target second half.

It was a dismal performance, akin to rolling over and having our tummies tickled. Players who couldn't wait for the game to be over and were just glad to get out of there without a tonking.

Arsenal are a massive club, one of the biggest names in world football and that lack of ambition in a game that is still 1-0 is just unacceptable.

As Hazuki said, the only players who looked like they believed we could get something out of the game were Tierney and Saka. I give Holding an honorable mention, despite his error for the goal, as at least it looked like it meant something to him.

Aubameyang, who genuinely has been one of the clubs greatest goalscorers and has gotten us out of jail on numerous occasions, was abysmal. He could barely trap a back of cement. If Willian had dropped that kind of performance the internet would have exploded.



If Arsenal really went for it in the second half and conceded another 2-3 goals Arteta would get hammered for another big defeat against a top side. The size of Arsenal as a club is not really relevant as it does not influence the players that Arteta can put on the pitch. Man City have a talented, settled and well drilled group of players and looking at the two sides there aren't many Arsenal players that would get a look in at Man City. The only 3 that would be in the mix would be Saka, Tierney and Aubameyang, unsurprisingly 2 of those 3 are the ones you noted looked confident coming up against City.

Comparing Aubameyang and Willian is a fairly pointless exercise. One player has basically carried the team for the past 2 years while the other has put in one good performance sine arriving. Aubameyang has plenty of credit in the bank and should be given the opportunity to play himself into some form.


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Post #523922  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:49 am 
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socrates wrote:
You can't honestly think we gave that game our best shot yesterday (excuse the pun). We were losing 1-0 and I don't think we registered a shot on target second half.

It was a dismal performance, akin to rolling over and having our tummies tickled. Players who couldn't wait for the game to be over and were just glad to get out of there without a tonking.

Arsenal are a massive club, one of the biggest names in world football and that lack of ambition in a game that is still 1-0 is just unacceptable.

As Hazuki said, the only players who looked like they believed we could get something out of the game were Tierney and Saka. I give Holding an honorable mention, despite his error for the goal, as at least it looked like it meant something to him.

Aubameyang, who genuinely has been one of the clubs greatest goalscorers and has gotten us out of jail on numerous occasions, was abysmal. He could barely trap a back of cement. If Willian had dropped that kind of performance the internet would have exploded.


Sounds like some of our problems aren't skill but what its been for a long time: belief, committment, etc.
We have lacked the intangibles squad wise consistently for a while. We have gotten up for some games but no where near to being consistent. We don't have that terrier about us that is needed.

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Post #523923  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:58 am 
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Rich wrote:
And if players flop we need to be decisive. Sell Torreira for anything over £20m. For that price you can buy a central midfielder far more suited to the league.
Realistically any young player we sign for £20-25m and on a long ish contract we shouldn’t have too much trouble getting most of our money back if they don’t quite fit. When we spend £70m on a player it simply has to work or the sell on value is half at best


So far Pépé is a flop in my humble opinion. No team would pay 70 million going by his performances for us. Would they even pay 35 million? Based on his performances, he's in the 20s. I'm not saying sell him right now. Its too early but if we don't get anywhere close to what we thought we were buying in the not too distant future, may as well cut our losses. Willian is on the tail end of his career. Not much we can do about him. Elneny needs to be sold, we can use those wages elsewhere. Xhaka is a tough guy, seems to be a leader in the dressing room, but his skill doesn't come close to his desire. He's 28. His sale price will drop considerably in a year or two.

I would still like to see a run of matches with Gabriel, Partey, Aubameyang as a spine with Martinelli as well or off the bench. Holding/Gabriel, Partey, Smith-Rowe, Saka, Tierney, Aubameyang, Ødegaard perhaps, Bellerin, Leno, Pépé, others, when healthy we have a decent squad seems to just need a run of games together.

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Post #523924  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:22 am 
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The way the season has been played, no fans, no transfer money and condensed games the teams who were going to fare well were those with settled squads and managers, those who needed little time on the training pitch because patterns of play are ingrained, and of course those with the biggest squads and those who suffer the fewest injuries.
West Ham and Villa have both done very well in this respect. Both have had very settled 1st 11's, barely an injury to speak of but they aren't 11's who have played together for long periods of time, both managers deserve credit for knitting them together so well.
City and Liverpool have the most settled squads and managers in the league. City have world class replacements and squad depth, Liverpool don't and Liverpool have had injuries.
Man U have a very deep squad but very few injuries to note - especially to key players.

Then you come to Arsenal - unsettled squad, needed a lot more surgery in the summer that proved difficult with covid, new manager trying to get over his ideas with little time on the training pitch and next to no pre-season and some key injuries to some of our most important players.

We should probably be higher up the league than we are and some results have been very poor but this is a very strange season and one that really couldn't have been timed worse from our perspective.


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Post #523925  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:27 am 
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Ben wrote:
socrates wrote:

You can't honestly think we gave that game our best shot yesterday (excuse the pun). We were losing 1-0 and I don't think we registered a shot on target second half.

It was a dismal performance, akin to rolling over and having our tummies tickled. Players who couldn't wait for the game to be over and were just glad to get out of there without a tonking.

Arsenal are a massive club, one of the biggest names in world football and that lack of ambition in a game that is still 1-0 is just unacceptable.

As Hazuki said, the only players who looked like they believed we could get something out of the game were Tierney and Saka. I give Holding an honorable mention, despite his error for the goal, as at least it looked like it meant something to him.

Aubameyang, who genuinely has been one of the clubs greatest goalscorers and has gotten us out of jail on numerous occasions, was abysmal. He could barely trap a back of cement. If Willian had dropped that kind of performance the internet would have exploded.



If Arsenal really went for it in the second half and conceded another 2-3 goals Arteta would get hammered for another big defeat against a top side. The size of Arsenal as a club is not really relevant as it does not influence the players that Arteta can put on the pitch. Man City have a talented, settled and well drilled group of players and looking at the two sides there aren't many Arsenal players that would get a look in at Man City. The only 3 that would be in the mix would be Saka, Tierney and Aubameyang, unsurprisingly 2 of those 3 are the ones you noted looked confident coming up against City.

Comparing Aubameyang and Willian is a fairly pointless exercise. One player has basically carried the team for the past 2 years while the other has put in one good performance sine arriving. Aubameyang has plenty of credit in the bank and should be given the opportunity to play himself into some form.


So basically everytime we play a big team at home we should just take a 1-0 defeat and move on?

Teams take points off better teams than them every week in the PL. We caused them issues for a 15 min period just before half-time but after half-time we just let the game drift, City didn't even half to get out of first gear and we didn't even have a shot on target. That's not having a go, that's just raising the white flag.

City are an accomplished side who managed the game very well but at 1-0 with 20 mins to play you have to have a go. Even the best teams get nervy when there's only one goal in it but we created next to nothing and offered no real threat at all in the latter stages.

We have done some good off-field things in January in getting rid of some of the deadwood and their exorbitant wages (albeit having to sacrifice transfer fees to do so) but we have to drive home the benefits of that by bringing in better players to replace them in the summer, and not just one or two either.

Arteta has to be accountable, like every other manager of an elite football club. Yes, he needs time but by the same token there have to be tangible signs of progress. We have improved in recent weeks but if we get booted out of the EL and finish 10th in the league then questions have to be asked, and rightly so.
I am not one of those who wants to see Arteta gone as I think another managerial merry-go-round could be problematical but, that said, he needs to start showing he deserves the trust. He is a bright young manager but this is Arsenal football club and standards must be set and must be adhered to.


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Post #523926  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:42 am 
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socrates wrote:
Ben wrote:


If Arsenal really went for it in the second half and conceded another 2-3 goals Arteta would get hammered for another big defeat against a top side. The size of Arsenal as a club is not really relevant as it does not influence the players that Arteta can put on the pitch. Man City have a talented, settled and well drilled group of players and looking at the two sides there aren't many Arsenal players that would get a look in at Man City. The only 3 that would be in the mix would be Saka, Tierney and Aubameyang, unsurprisingly 2 of those 3 are the ones you noted looked confident coming up against City.

Comparing Aubameyang and Willian is a fairly pointless exercise. One player has basically carried the team for the past 2 years while the other has put in one good performance sine arriving. Aubameyang has plenty of credit in the bank and should be given the opportunity to play himself into some form.


So basically everytime we play a big team at home we should just take a 1-0 defeat and move on?

Teams take points off better teams than them every week in the PL. We caused them issues for a 15 min period just before half-time but after half-time we just let the game drift, City didn't even half to get out of first gear and we didn't even have a shot on target. That's not having a go, that's just raising the white flag.

City are an accomplished side who managed the game very well but at 1-0 with 20 mins to play you have to have a go. Even the best teams get nervy when there's only one goal in it but we created next to nothing and offered no real threat at all in the latter stages.

We have done some good off-field things in January in getting rid of some of the deadwood and their exorbitant wages (albeit having to sacrifice transfer fees to do so) but we have to drive home the benefits of that by bringing in better players to replace them in the summer, and not just one or two either.

Arteta has to be accountable, like every other manager of an elite football club. Yes, he needs time but by the same token there have to be tangible signs of progress. We have improved in recent weeks but if we get booted out of the EL and finish 10th in the league then questions have to be asked, and rightly so.
I am not one of those who wants to see Arteta gone as I think another managerial merry-go-round could be problematical but, that said, he needs to start showing he deserves the trust. He is a bright young manager but this is Arsenal football club and standards must be set and must be adhered to.


Ridiculous post

Your simply viewing everything with blinkers saying this isn't good enough. Your also deliberately ignoring that Arteta beat city and chelsea to the fa cup last year with some very astute back to the walls wins. One would presume this would have bought the manager some good will but maybe not.

On any given sunday Arteta has probably 4 or 5 players who can regularly perform to the standard we need. Its simply not enough if we want to do better. He's had some bad luck with refs and injuries and the league table is probably a slight anomaly and we should actually be 7 or 8th rather than 10th but trust me we aint better than that right now.

For me no questions even if he finishes 10th and doesn't win the EL (which is more a problem for us than a benefit) . If you couldn't see this coming then you must be blind or in a coma. This is years in the making


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Post #523927  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:52 am 
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You’ve essentially got El Nenny and Xhaka up againest Gundogan, Fernandinho and de bruyne. Does it even warrant explanation. Get a grip people


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Post #523928  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:45 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
socrates wrote:

So basically everytime we play a big team at home we should just take a 1-0 defeat and move on?

Teams take points off better teams than them every week in the PL. We caused them issues for a 15 min period just before half-time but after half-time we just let the game drift, City didn't even half to get out of first gear and we didn't even have a shot on target. That's not having a go, that's just raising the white flag.

City are an accomplished side who managed the game very well but at 1-0 with 20 mins to play you have to have a go. Even the best teams get nervy when there's only one goal in it but we created next to nothing and offered no real threat at all in the latter stages.

We have done some good off-field things in January in getting rid of some of the deadwood and their exorbitant wages (albeit having to sacrifice transfer fees to do so) but we have to drive home the benefits of that by bringing in better players to replace them in the summer, and not just one or two either.

Arteta has to be accountable, like every other manager of an elite football club. Yes, he needs time but by the same token there have to be tangible signs of progress. We have improved in recent weeks but if we get booted out of the EL and finish 10th in the league then questions have to be asked, and rightly so.
I am not one of those who wants to see Arteta gone as I think another managerial merry-go-round could be problematical but, that said, he needs to start showing he deserves the trust. He is a bright young manager but this is Arsenal football club and standards must be set and must be adhered to.


Ridiculous post

Your simply viewing everything with blinkers saying this isn't good enough. Your also deliberately ignoring that Arteta beat city and chelsea to the fa cup last year with some very astute back to the walls wins. One would presume this would have bought the manager some good will but maybe not.

On any given sunday Arteta has probably 4 or 5 players who can regularly perform to the standard we need. Its simply not enough if we want to do better. He's had some bad luck with refs and injuries and the league table is probably a slight anomaly and we should actually be 7 or 8th rather than 10th but trust me we aint better than that right now.

For me no questions even if he finishes 10th and doesn't win the EL (which is more a problem for us than a benefit) . If you couldn't see this coming then you must be blind or in a coma. This is years in the making


That's bollocks mate, his is Arsenal football club not the effing Dog and Duck.


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Post #523929  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:59 am 
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socrates wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

Ridiculous post

Your simply viewing everything with blinkers saying this isn't good enough. Your also deliberately ignoring that Arteta beat city and chelsea to the fa cup last year with some very astute back to the walls wins. One would presume this would have bought the manager some good will but maybe not.

On any given sunday Arteta has probably 4 or 5 players who can regularly perform to the standard we need. Its simply not enough if we want to do better. He's had some bad luck with refs and injuries and the league table is probably a slight anomaly and we should actually be 7 or 8th rather than 10th but trust me we aint better than that right now.

For me no questions even if he finishes 10th and doesn't win the EL (which is more a problem for us than a benefit) . If you couldn't see this coming then you must be blind or in a coma. This is years in the making


That's bollocks mate, his is Arsenal football club not the effing Dog and Duck.


Your essentially sticking your head in the sand and ignoring any of the circumstances.

Prepare to get more frustrated for the rest of the season.


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Post #523930  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 am 
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Ben wrote:
If Arsenal really went for it in the second half and conceded another 2-3 goals Arteta would get hammered for another big defeat against a top side.

But surely there's a middle ground between going all out to score and being too conservative? Looking at the result in retrospect, it's of course fair enough to simply say City are much better than us and we can't expect to get anything from the game. But whenever you go a full 90 minutes without troubling the opposing keeper, you have to say it hasn't been a good enough attacking performance, no matter who your opponent is.


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Post #523931  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:00 am 
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socrates wrote:
City are an accomplished side who managed the game very well but at 1-0 with 20 mins to play you have to have a go. Even the best teams get nervy when there's only one goal in it but we created next to nothing and offered no real threat at all in the latter stages.

One thing to consider is that the team were perhaps a bit knackered. A lot of them played in Italy on Thursday, there hasn't been that much rotation in the attacking positions and they spent a lot of the City game chasing City players. A lack of a crowd to give that oomph for a rousing finish. City also manage the game really well.

I think the wider issue is our lack of late goals in any games this season, only 2 goals beyond the 75th minute. Are the players not as fit as they should be. Wasn't there occasions when Arteta first took over when he had us running far more in the game and we were out on our feet after 60 minutes.

We also don't have that option in the team to go more direct. A giroud type striker who you can go long to and feed off.

There is plenty of work to do but I'm far more upset with our performances in other defeats this season than an inability to lay a glove on City in a last 20 minute hail mary


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Post #523932  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:11 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Your simply viewing everything with blinkers saying this isn't good enough. Your also deliberately ignoring that Arteta beat city and chelsea to the fa cup last year with some very astute back to the walls wins.

Whilst I agree that Arteta deserves credit for the wins against City and Chelsea, how are you defining back to the wall for the Chelsea final? As dec has pointed out to you, after Chelsea’s bright start and early goal, we were comfortably the better team for the rest of the game.

As I say, Arteta deserves credit for that. But there’s no way I think the Chelsea final can be called backs to the wall.


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Post #523933  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:38 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
...Arteta has got a reasonably solid back 4 in place and a stellar defensive record is starting to form but now the accusation is we are too conservative. It’s just silly.
Any successful team needs a good defence as a starting point, and somewhat against expectations we seem to be going in the right direction in that respect. It can't be denied our attack has been our weakness - in 25 league games only 31 goals scored. We have failed to score in 10 games and in 7 games hit the net no more than once. But then 24 goals scored in eight! A very unbalanced output. We obviously have talent going forward, but too inconsistent.

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Post #523934  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:50 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
...Arteta has got a reasonably solid back 4 in place and a stellar defensive record is starting to form but now the accusation is we are too conservative. It’s just silly.
Any successful team needs a good defence as a starting point, and somewhat against expectations we seem to be going in the right direction in that respect. It can't be denied our attack has been our weakness - in 25 league games only 31 goals scored. We have failed to score in 10 games and in 7 games hit the net no more than once. But then 24 goals scored in eight! A very unbalanced output. We obviously have talent going forward, but too inconsistent.

It might be a bit early to say a season of two halves but the moment Smith-Rowe came in to the team vs Chelsea was a turning point. Up to then we scored 12 goals in 14 games. Since then we have 19 goals in 11 games. That extrapolates to 65 goals in a season, still probably not enough for top 4 but certainly getting closer.

In defence it was 18 goals conceded in 14 before Chelsea and is 8 goals conceded in 11 games - which is 27 across the season which is really excellent (the invincibles conceded 26)

Very broadly speaking Top 4 needs an average of 2 points per game, 2 goals per game and 1 goal against per game.


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Post #523935  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:31 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Very broadly speaking Top 4 needs an average of 2 points per game, 2 goals per game and 1 goal against per game.
Yes - strangely we have had only one league game in which we scored two goals. We need more of those - two often wins a game. Bit like snooker player who consistently hit breaks of 60-70. When Mbappe joins in the summer he could improve things...

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Post #523936  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:05 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Your simply viewing everything with blinkers saying this isn't good enough. Your also deliberately ignoring that Arteta beat city and chelsea to the fa cup last year with some very astute back to the walls wins.

Whilst I agree that Arteta deserves credit for the wins against City and Chelsea, how are you defining back to the wall for the Chelsea final? As dec has pointed out to you, after Chelsea’s bright start and early goal, we were comfortably the better team for the rest of the game.

As I say, Arteta deserves credit for that. But there’s no way I think the Chelsea final can be called backs to the wall.


I thought it was a pretty even game really in a match where we were up againest a probably superior opposition and did well to win by a tight margin.


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Post #523937  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:18 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Rich wrote:
Very broadly speaking Top 4 needs an average of 2 points per game, 2 goals per game and 1 goal against per game.
Yes - strangely we have had only one league game in which we scored two goals. We need more of those - two often wins a game. Bit like snooker player who consistently hit breaks of 60-70. When Mbappe joins in the summer he could improve things...


Who is going to tell Messi we will no longer need his services this summer?

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Post #523938  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:34 pm 
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I'm not totally satisfied with the defense but its improved. Our first choice back 5 right now: Leno, Bellerin, Holding, Gabriel and Tierney is a pretty good back 5.
But they can't do it alone. All the successful clubs play good team defense. I'm hoping Partey gets a run of games in front of the back 5. With all fairness to Toreirra we could actually use him off the bench or even starting some matches. Right now, I mean. It was still a wise decision to part ways (yeah, I know he's on loan).

I'd rather the attack be the one to improve than the defense. You can always nick a goal with some luck or pluck but if the defense sucks you are in jeopardy till the final whistle. Almost no lead is safe. We have good attackers. I contend its the midfield. Both the defense and the attack is linked by the midfield and its not able to transition between both.

I watched City and Liverpool a bit closer than I have. You don't see too many backwards passes. They go forward much more than they do sideways or backwards. Almost the opposite for us. I am hoping Ødegaard can add something. He's finding his way it seems. He's not quite sure what his role is I think just yet. The clips of him before he always seemed to be driving forward. I've seen him do more sideways and back passes than his all his clip (albeit the clips are cherry picked but still).

Let's quit the mucking around and bring back Fabregas for a year or two. :58big-emoticons: :icon_mrgreen:

Him and Partey? Match made in Gooner heaven. :53big-emoticons:

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Post #523939  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:00 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
Whilst I agree that Arteta deserves credit for the wins against City and Chelsea, how are you defining back to the wall for the Chelsea final? As dec has pointed out to you, after Chelsea’s bright start and early goal, we were comfortably the better team for the rest of the game.

As I say, Arteta deserves credit for that. But there’s no way I think the Chelsea final can be called backs to the wall.

I thought it was a pretty even game really in a match where we were up againest a probably superior opposition and did well to win by a tight margin.

I thought we were comfortably the better team after Chelsea scored their early goal. No way was it backs to the wall, not the way I use the term anyway. We thoroughly deserved the win.


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Post #523940  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:40 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
I thought it was a pretty even game really in a match where we were up againest a probably superior opposition and did well to win by a tight margin.

I thought we were comfortably the better team after Chelsea scored their early goal. No way was it backs to the wall, not the way I use the term anyway. We thoroughly deserved the win.


The point your trying to make seems so marginal I don’t have the energy to respond.


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Post #523941  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:21 pm 
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Pal Dardai [Hertha Berlin manager] on Matteo Guendouzi: “He is a young player. It’s like he’s in puberty sometimes, rebellious. You have to know where the limit is. He has to learn, learn like a beast.





.... yeah took 4 months :58big-emoticons:


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Post #523942  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:25 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Pal Dardai [Hertha Berlin manager] on Matteo Guendouzi: “He is a young player. It’s like he’s in puberty sometimes, rebellious. You have to know where the limit is. He has to learn, learn like a beast.
.... yeah took 4 months :58big-emoticons:

I think the rebellious side of Guendouzi isn't necessarily a problem if you have a group of senior players and leaders who can bring him in to check and use that rebellious streak to our advantage.

Guendouzi had his best (or at least most influential) games for us when we were down in a game and he was leading the charge to fight us back in to it. We were on top and so the tactical and positional side of the game could be pushed to one side in the name of 'going for it'. It was great to see but not a position we want to put ourselves in.

My problem with Guendouzi has always been two main things
1) he lacks the physical attributes I want for a central midfield premier league player. Power and Pace. And he isn't going to get those any time soon
2) and this is more nuanced but for me he doesnt seem to have a picture of the play in his mind before he receives the ball. He is more a head down and play the way you're facing sort of player. This leads to getting caught on the ball or not realising he can turn and drive forward. If you watch peak Fabregas play he is constantly scanning every part of the pitch, even as the pass is being played in to him. Part of that skill is having a perfect first touch that you don't need to concentrate as much as the ball arrives at you. Fabregas was always looking over his shoulder, he knew what pass he was going to make before the ball arrived. It is that constant scanning of the pitch I don't see in Guendouzi - it can be learnt but from my experience watching football the very best at it already do it naturally from their early teens.


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Post #523943  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:31 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
I thought we were comfortably the better team after Chelsea scored their early goal. No way was it backs to the wall, not the way I use the term anyway. We thoroughly deserved the win.

The point your trying to make seems so marginal I don’t have the energy to respond.

Not half as marginal as the extent to which we deserved to win that final.


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Post #523944  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:55 pm 
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Raphinha at Leeds is some player. £17m from Rennes. That’s the sort of scouting we need to be doing. Unheard of but a seriously good player - a bit Mahrez like. Worth double what they paid for him.


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Post #523945  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:56 pm 
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Oops. Back in the bottom half of the table then.

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Post #523946  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:11 pm 
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long time gooner wrote:
Oops. Back in the bottom half of the table then.


We're doomed. Relegation scrap here we come. :laughing7:


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Post #523947  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:14 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
Ben wrote:
If Arsenal really went for it in the second half and conceded another 2-3 goals Arteta would get hammered for another big defeat against a top side.

But surely there's a middle ground between going all out to score and being too conservative? Looking at the result in retrospect, it's of course fair enough to simply say City are much better than us and we can't expect to get anything from the game. But whenever you go a full 90 minutes without troubling the opposing keeper, you have to say it hasn't been a good enough attacking performance, no matter who your opponent is.


I think its fair to expect a middle ground, claiming that its shameful/disgraceful the way others have is a bridge to far for me.

Arteta's tactics against the bigger sides tends to be focused on defensive solidity and hitting on the break. Conceding in the first minute really puts paid to that tactic. Who knows why Arsenal are caught out early so often.


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Post #523948  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 pm 
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Latest Tuesday club is a good un. Quite clear Davies doesn’t rate Arteta much.

I do get it. It’s simply not good enough in terms of results but the sad truth is we aren’t a top 4 club anymore and you won’t get there with a midfield of El Nenny Xhaka and a loaner. I really can’t put that on this manager, they were suggesting we should have got Ancelleotti but he has spent a shitload of money Arteta hasn’t had.

It’s hard to digest really but it’s all a bit *%^@ and I don’t think there’s much we can do about it.


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Post #523949  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:00 pm 
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I really wish they got rid of the stupid away goals rule in Champions League matches. It basically guarantees that the home team will be focussed on defence at the expense of any attacking endeavour. Chelsea v Atletico was a ridiculously boring match.


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Post #523950  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:04 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
...Arteta has got a reasonably solid back 4 in place and a stellar defensive record is starting to form but now the accusation is we are too conservative. It’s just silly.
Any successful team needs a good defence as a starting point, and somewhat against expectations we seem to be going in the right direction in that respect. It can't be denied our attack has been our weakness - in 25 league games only 31 goals scored. We have failed to score in 10 games and in 7 games hit the net no more than once. But then 24 goals scored in eight! A very unbalanced output. We obviously have talent going forward, but too inconsistent.


Agree with this summary. Room for improvement in attack but I'm happy with the improvement and not being defensive weaklings.

I think we should have modest aspirations this season. A couple of good signings in the summer and I think we could push for Top 4 next season. Champions the season after that. :icon_mrgreen:


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Post #523951  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:39 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Latest Tuesday club is a good un. Quite clear Davies doesn’t rate Arteta much.

I do get it. It’s simply not good enough in terms of results but the sad truth is we aren’t a top 4 club anymore and you won’t get there with a midfield of El Nenny Xhaka and a loaner. I really can’t put that on this manager, they were suggesting we should have got Ancelleotti but he has spent a shitload of money Arteta hasn’t had.

It’s hard to digest really but it’s all a bit *%^@ and I don’t think there’s much we can do about it.

We’re a Stan Kroenke club. Wilts paid us a visit recently. He puts things in a somewhat extreme manner, but I think his overall point has a lot of credibility. People want a big turnover of players. Okay, I’ve little doubt there will be more departures. But for me a big turnover implies lots of arrivals as well. I’ve a great deal less confidence that side of the equation will happen.

Where I think your own enthusiasm about defending Arteta will be undermined relates to your continued insistence on picking out Xhaka for criticism (I noticed you picked him and Elneny out in your quoted post). I think Arteta loves him. I can’t prove it, but I reckon he’s the first, or at least one of the first, names Arteta puts on the team sheet.

I still remember you saying words to the effect that Arteta taking off Xhaka early against Liverpool suggests he’s seen the light (as you perceive it) and implying Xhaka’s days are numbered. I genuinely think you were hopelessly wrong about that. I really don’t see Xhaka being one of the first names on the team sheet as changing anytime soon, unless Arteta moves on by either his own choice (getting a job at another club he wants to join) or not his own choice (getting sacked).

If Arteta stays, I feel we’ll see a lot more moaning about Xhaka by you because not only has he got a contract until 2023, the year when he has his 30th birthday so he isn’t that old, but I honestly believe Arteta will insist on Xhaka getting a contract extension. If, or when, that happens I’ll be fascinated to see if you remain as supportive and defensive of Arteta.


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Post #523952  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:53 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Latest Tuesday club is a good un. Quite clear Davies doesn’t rate Arteta much.

I do get it. It’s simply not good enough in terms of results but the sad truth is we aren’t a top 4 club anymore and you won’t get there with a midfield of El Nenny Xhaka and a loaner. I really can’t put that on this manager, they were suggesting we should have got Ancelleotti but he has spent a shitload of money Arteta hasn’t had.

It’s hard to digest really but it’s all a bit *%^@ and I don’t think there’s much we can do about it.

We’re a Stan Kroenke club. Wilts paid us a visit recently. He puts things in a somewhat extreme manner, but I think his overall point has a lot of credibility. People want a big turnover of players. Okay, I’ve little doubt there will be more departures. But for me a big turnover implies lots of arrivals as well. I’ve a great deal less confidence that side of the equation will happen.

Where I think your own enthusiasm about defending Arteta will be undermined relates to your continued insistence on picking out Xhaka for criticism (I noticed you picked him and Elneny out in your quoted post). I think Arteta loves him. I can’t prove it, but I reckon he’s the first, or at least one of the first, names Arteta puts on the team sheet.

I still remember you saying words to the effect that Arteta taking off Xhaka early against Liverpool suggests he’s seen the light (as you perceive it) and implying Xhaka’s days are numbered. I genuinely think you were hopelessly wrong about that. I really don’t see Xhaka being one of the first names on the team sheet as changing anytime soon, unless Arteta moves on by either his own choice (getting a job at another club he wants to join) or not his own choice (getting sacked).

If Arteta stays, I feel we’ll see a lot more moaning about Xhaka by you because not only has he got a contract until 2023, the year when he has his 30th birthday so he isn’t that old, but I honestly believe Arteta will insist on Xhaka getting a contract extension. If, or when, that happens I’ll be fascinated to see if you remain as supportive and defensive of Arteta.


I really think it’s Hobson choice Bernard he’s got no choice Xhaka is the best of a pretty average bunch. We’re stuck with him.

El Nenny, ceballos, willock. All nowhere good enough compared to our previous options. (Although personally I’d rather ceballos than Xhaka)

If he offers him a new contract I’d be scratching my head however apparently Arteta came close to selling him to Hertha Berlin last summer. When Partey doesn’t play we don’t have a proper midfield.

In the podcast I mention they rip this piss out of Xhaka. They said in the second half of the first half v benfica they stopped counting when he gave the ball away for the 9th time.

I genuinely don’t think you can get anywhere with a player so poor in the middle of the pitch. However we are a leaky bucket right now and as soon as one problem area ceases a new one is created so Arteta may need to spunk his transfer budget on a new right back or striker. It’s never ending at Arsenal


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Post #523953  Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:55 pm 
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Btw if you want to see what’s required for a modern day midfield watch Fernandinho and Gundogan on Saturday. Energy, mobility and distribution. They controlled the midfield


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Post #523954  Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:06 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bernard wrote:
We’re a Stan Kroenke club. Wilts paid us a visit recently. He puts things in a somewhat extreme manner, but I think his overall point has a lot of credibility. People want a big turnover of players. Okay, I’ve little doubt there will be more departures. But for me a big turnover implies lots of arrivals as well. I’ve a great deal less confidence that side of the equation will happen.

Where I think your own enthusiasm about defending Arteta will be undermined relates to your continued insistence on picking out Xhaka for criticism (I noticed you picked him and Elneny out in your quoted post). I think Arteta loves him. I can’t prove it, but I reckon he’s the first, or at least one of the first, names Arteta puts on the team sheet.

I still remember you saying words to the effect that Arteta taking off Xhaka early against Liverpool suggests he’s seen the light (as you perceive it) and implying Xhaka’s days are numbered. I genuinely think you were hopelessly wrong about that. I really don’t see Xhaka being one of the first names on the team sheet as changing anytime soon, unless Arteta moves on by either his own choice (getting a job at another club he wants to join) or not his own choice (getting sacked).

If Arteta stays, I feel we’ll see a lot more moaning about Xhaka by you because not only has he got a contract until 2023, the year when he has his 30th birthday so he isn’t that old, but I honestly believe Arteta will insist on Xhaka getting a contract extension. If, or when, that happens I’ll be fascinated to see if you remain as supportive and defensive of Arteta.


I really think it’s Hobson choice Bernard he’s got no choice Xhaka is the best of a pretty average bunch. We’re stuck with him.

El Nenny, ceballos, willock. All nowhere good enough compared to our previous options. (Although personally I’d rather ceballos than Xhaka)

If he offers him a new contract I’d be scratching my head however apparently Arteta came close to selling him to Hertha Berlin last summer. When Partey doesn’t play we don’t have a proper midfield.

In the podcast I mention they rip this piss out of Xhaka. They said in the second half of the first half v benfica they stopped counting when he gave the ball away for the 9th time.

I genuinely don’t think you can get anywhere with a player so poor in the middle of the pitch. However we are a leaky bucket right now and as soon as one problem area ceases a new one is created so Arteta may need to spunk his transfer budget on a new right back or striker. It’s never ending at Arsenal

Of course I might be wrong. I don’t know Arteta. He doesn’t phone me to say what he intends doing about certain players, or any players. But in my view you’ll have to get used to seeing Xhaka week in, week out for a good while yet if Arteta stays in post. That isn’t even down to Kroenke. My guess is Arteta’s opinion on Xhaka is the polar opposite of yours. My advice to you is this. If Arteta remains in post, get used to Xhaka being used as the engine of the team. Stan putting up the money, which isn’t going to happen, to buy a shed load of new players won’t change that.

EDIT: By the way, what I’ve heard is that Xhaka was keen on moving to Hertha Berlin, but Arteta talked him out of it.


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Post #523955  Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:15 am 
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Bernard wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

I really think it’s Hobson choice Bernard he’s got no choice Xhaka is the best of a pretty average bunch. We’re stuck with him.

El Nenny, ceballos, willock. All nowhere good enough compared to our previous options. (Although personally I’d rather ceballos than Xhaka)

If he offers him a new contract I’d be scratching my head however apparently Arteta came close to selling him to Hertha Berlin last summer. When Partey doesn’t play we don’t have a proper midfield.

In the podcast I mention they rip this piss out of Xhaka. They said in the second half of the first half v benfica they stopped counting when he gave the ball away for the 9th time.

I genuinely don’t think you can get anywhere with a player so poor in the middle of the pitch. However we are a leaky bucket right now and as soon as one problem area ceases a new one is created so Arteta may need to spunk his transfer budget on a new right back or striker. It’s never ending at Arsenal

Of course I might be wrong. I don’t know Arteta. He doesn’t phone me to say what he intends doing about certain players, or any players. But in my view you’ll have to get used to seeing Xhaka week in, week out for a good while yet if Arteta stays in post. That isn’t even down to Kroenke. My guess is Arteta’s opinion on Xhaka is the polar opposite of yours. My advice to you is this. If Arteta remains in post, get used to Xhaka being used as the engine of the team. Stan putting up the money, which isn’t going to happen, to buy a shed load of new players won’t change that.


No I think your totally right but it will be more down to budget rather than choice.

Without European football our transfer budget won’t be much more than 70 million a season. That doesn’t buy you much in this market and we need a new right back and striker soon probably plus sign a better back up keeper permanently

The only way out of it is if the club can generate 100 million by selling Torreira, Guendouzi, Nketiah and Xhaka himself to add to the existing budget a fund a wholesale restructure which is unlikely

Also in addition to this I think you’ll see Xhaka play for another manager as Arteta won’t be here in 2023 with the mood of our fans. A “name” will be required soon to placate the restless and then we simply start the cycle again


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Post #523956  Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:36 am 
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long time gooner wrote:
Oops. Back in the bottom half of the table then.


I was going to say 'the forum' but settings being what they are :42laughter: , ltg or another, when/what was the last big or 'biggish' club that was in a true relegation fight that people thought before the season were too big to go through that? I'm excluding Leeds. So, before their implosion. Forest? Newcastle? Was it Man Utd in the '70s? I am not knowledgeable of how "big" some of these clubs were considered. Leeds, yes. Newcastle? Hmm....yes? Anyone from the '80s?

This covers EPL only: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2039114-what-happened-to-the-10-biggest-clubs-relegated-from-the-premier-league

I would have loved to be around when Man Utd go relegated. I'd have wet my pants in joy (as I do now. :1laughter: )

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Post #523957  Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:44 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
The only way out of it is if the club can generate 100 million by selling Torreira, Guendouzi, Nketiah and Xhaka himself to add to the existing budget a fund a wholesale restructure which is unlikely

We've done the first phase of our rebuilding of the squad by simply getting rid of players who no one else was going to pay any money for - Özil, Mustafi, Sokratis.
The second phase is getting fees for players who will still command them.
Players who just need to leave even for minimal fee: Kolasinac and Elneny
Players we need to work hard to sell this summer as they only have one year left on their deal: Lacazette, Nketiah, Chambers
Players who should be sold because they don't have a future with us: Gunedouzi, Torreira, Nelson
Players with protected length on contracts but should be sold for the right price (more bargaining power for us): Bellerin, Willock, AMN

I'm hesitant to add Xhaka - of course if someone offered £50m then we take it, but he seems like he'll stay around.

Realistically can we shift 11 players from the first team in 1 summer? (15 if we include Luiz and the 3 loan players). I've never seen a club turn over that many players. However, how many of those players can take us in to the top 4? How many of those 11 players would be considered undisputed 1st choice? - Only Bellerin. You might be able to make a case for a few of them as squad players in a top 4 side but that is the task that faces the club at the moment.

Even in a stagnated market we should be able to generate £100m easily from that group of players.

If we took a realistic view of not really being able to sell 11 players then you would prioritise the sales of Kolasinac, Elneny, Lacazette, Chambers. Try to get Nketiah to sign a new deal and get him out on loan - or sell him. Nelson, AMN, Willock could all have another season on loan. And I also can't see how we can keep Torreira and Guendouzi. That's 6 players sold with 4 on loan.

Either way it is a massive summer for the club and I can easily see us boosting our recruitment with a couple of loans again.
6 priority positions where we need to recruit
1. central midfielder
2. striker
3. creative midfielder
4. back up GK
5. back up left-back
6. right-back (if Bellerin leaves)


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Post #523958  Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:09 am 
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The rumour of the Nigerian interest is interesting. Would just be glad to be rid of the useless Americans.

Could this be the catalyst for much more funds to get top class players?

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Post #523959  Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:15 am 
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Arteta says Partey has a final test and is very close to being available for Benfica. Holding won't travel due to concussion protocols.


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Post #523960  Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:20 am 
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Rich wrote:
Players who just need to leave even for minimal fee: Kolasinac and Elneny

If we took a realistic view of not really being able to sell 11 players then you would prioritise the sales of Kolasinac, Elneny, Lacazette, Chambers.

6 priority positions where we need to recruit
5. back up left-back

Rich, you talk of the need to prioritise the sale of Kolasinac even for a minimal fee. Then in exactly the same post you talk of the need to sign a back up left back. Isn’t that exactly what Kolasinac is?

Look, I’m no big fan of Kolasinac and won’t be in the slightest bit bothered if he leaves. But he’s a million miles off the worst left back I’ve seen play for Arsenal. Moreover he performed quite commendably in a more central position when we played a back three. Tierney is the first choice left back, full stop. That isn’t going to change.

So in talking of a back up to him, we’re not going to get anyone as good as him, which Kolasinac clearly isn’t. But Kolasinac is perfectly adequate, in my view, as Tierney’s back up. He’s not great, but he’s not bad. Why not keep him as the back up left back rather than get rid for a minimal fee when we’d probably have to spend as much on a replacement for him?


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