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Post #514361  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:39 am 
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Thanks Zed,
Fiszman (and others) are not exonerated, however, as i recall it he had a choice of Kroenke or Usmanov. Two reasons Usmanov was not wanted as I recall was 1. His sketchy background and 2. Dein was part of it.

What choices did he have? The club was going to go either eventually. Who brought them (Usmanov and Kroenke) in? :20hospitals:



Wikipedia, not the best source in the world but...

Usmanov moved into the football arena in August 2007 by acquiring a 14.58-percent stake in the English football team Arsenal. He and his business partner Farhad Moshiri bought the stake in the club owned by former Arsenal vice-chairman David Dein for £75 million.[54] David Dein was appointed as head of their investment vehicle, Red and White Holdings, which became the largest shareholder in the club outside of members of the board of directors.

On 28 September 2007, it was announced that Red and White Holdings had increased its shareholding to 23 percent, making it the second largest shareholder in the club behind Danny Fiszman on 24 percent.[55] On 15 February 2008, he increased it further to over 24 percent, giving him a stake just short of Arsenal non-executive director and major shareholder Danny Fiszman's 24.11 percent.[56] However, there was speculation that Usmanov might already be the club's largest shareholder at 24.2 percent, which he later increased to 25 percent on 16 February 2009.[57]

Red and White Holdings confirmed on 28 February 2008 that it was the club's largest shareholder and the company said it "has the necessary funding to increase its stake further [but] it has no current intention to make a full takeover bid for Arsenal for six months."[58] If the stake were to reach 30 percent, Red and White Holdings would have to launch a formal takeover. Usmanov said he had been an Arsenal fan for seven years and he had a great love for Arsenal.[citation needed]

Usmanov's interest precipitated a "lock-down" agreement by the Gunners' board, whereby chairman Peter Hill-Wood announced that club directors could sell their stakes only to "permitted persons" before April 2009, and had to give fellow board members "first option" on shares until October 2012.[59] However, there was a termination clause in the agreement in October 2010.[clarification needed][59] "The lockdown...makes us bullet-proof," said the then Arsenal managing director Keith Edelman.[60]

American businessman Stanley Kroenke, already a major Arsenal shareholder, increased his stake in the club to just over 62 percent in April 2011 after buying out Fiszman and Lady Bracewell-Smith,[61] making him the majority shareholder. As Kroenke's stake had risen above 30 percent, he was obliged to make an offer to buy out the remainder of Arsenal shares. Usmanov refused to sell, however, and maintained his stake.[62]

(More Wiki)

Kroenke is the largest shareholder of Premier League association football club Arsenal. Arsenal already had a technical link-up with Kroenke's Colorado Rapids when in April 2007 Granada Ventures, a subsidiary of ITV plc, had sold its 9.9% stake in Arsenal Holdings plc to Kroenke's KSE UK inc.[34] Kroenke went on to buy further shares in the club, taking his total stake up to 12.19%.[35] The club's board initially expressed skepticism that a bid would be in its best interests,[36] but gradually warmed to him as part of counteracting Alisher Usmanov's rival bid for the club.

By June 2008, the board had prepared to let Kroenke take over the club,[37] and on September 19, 2008, it was officially announced that Kroenke had joined the Arsenal board of directors.[38] Kroenke had a beneficial interest in, and controlled voting rights, over 18,594 shares, representing 29.9% of the issued shares. Thus, he was nearing the maximum 29.99% threshold, beyond which he would be forced to make an offer for all remaining shares.[39]

On April 10, 2011, it was reported that Kroenke was in advanced talks to complete the takeover of Arsenal.[40][41] The following day, it was announced that he increased his shareholding in Arsenal to 62.89% by purchasing the stakes of Danny Fiszman and Lady Nina Bracewell-Smith, and agreed to make an offer for the rest of the club at £11,750 per share, valuing the club at £731M.

http://www.thearsenalhistory.com/?p=13265
2007

It’s well-known that Stan Kroenke was introduced to Arsenal by David Dein, whose thinking was that Kroenke’s money could help Arsenal compete with the newly rich Chelsea, who were benefitting from Roman Abramovich’s billions.


All roads lead to Dein.

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Post #514362  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:23 am 
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...also, if you are saying Fiszman should share the blame (as I think you are insinuating), I will agree. If you are saying that Fiszman is wholly or primarily responsible and who I should focus my vitriol to, I'd respectfully disagree.

An interesting thought, if there were no Kroenke or Usmanov what is the likely disposition of Fiszman's shares? Who would it have gone to?

In addition, what would Arsenal's ownership look like today if there were no Kroenke? What if neither Kroenke or Usmanov were brought in? I suggest we'd be much better off, without knowing what would have happened. I say that because I would guess that whomever was left, they would have loved the club and the club's finances would reflect that.

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Post #514363  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:34 am 
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American, I did accept in my earlier post that Dein can be seen as introducing Kroenke to Arsenal. I’m sure I did say that he presumably saw him as a way of Arsenal competing with Chelsea under Abramovich. As I also suggested this was a silly decision making me give that tongue in cheek observation that he must have stuck a pin in the Forbes’ Rich lList of multi-billionaires with him not doing adequate research on whose name the pin struck.

But, and as I also implied earlier it’s a very big but, it was not Dein who sold the club to Kroenke to give him majority control of the club. The major blame for that, I believe, should firmly be attached to Fiszman who apparently at the time basically dominated Bracewell-Smith who he also told (a word such as ‘convinced’ may be preferred by some) to sell, a decision she apparently now regrets.

So the main blame that Kroenke owns Arsenal in my view should be attached to Fiszman who basically drove the selling of the club to him, rather than Dein who introduced Stan to it. Think of the example I gave earlier. Do you blame a goal conceded on a defender who made an awful error to present an easy chance to an opposition forward, or do you blame a forward who initially lost possession up the other end of the pitch? The general principle looks fairly similar to me.

By blaming Dein, you seem to want to blame the forward up the other end of the pitch. I would suggest it’s more sensible to lay the primary blame on the defender. If in one sentence the choice for attaching blame is between Dein for introducing Kroenke to Arsenal, or Fiszman for driving the sale of it to him, for me the primary blame should definitely be attached to Fiszman.


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Post #514364  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:59 am 
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American, I did my last post before having the chance to read your most recent one. I would suggest that by focusing your vitriol (as you call it) solely on Dein, which until very recently you’ve appeared to, I think you are misplacing where the main blame lies. Rather on the man who actually sold (and as part of that drove Bracewell-Smith’s sale) to Kroenke, who was Fiszman, you instead focus your vitriol on Dein, who it appears introduced Kroenke to Arsenal. I can only see that as misplacing your vitriol.

Regarding what would have happened to Arsenal’s ownership otherwise, who knows? But the logical conclusion probably has to be that Fiszman, who knew he was dying, would have sold his shares to a multi-billionaire interested in buying a Premier League team. What I doubt would have happened is him leaving his shares to other directors (who didn’t have the wealth to buy them). He was, after all, a very rich (in terms of millions) businessman who, by selling up to Kroenke, in my view wasn’t considering the health of the club after his death as his biggest priority. Surely he’d have sold up to get the money in for his relatives? That’s my guess anyway.

Would it have been Kroenke or Usmanov, if they were multi-billionaires looking to buy into English football? Perfectly feasible, I’d have thought. Could he have found an oil sheikh somewhere? Being Jewish, would Fiszman have entertained selling to one? Who knows as money talks. But I don’t discount the possibility the club would have ended up in the hands of Kroenke or Usmanov anyway, although that it pure guesswork.


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Post #514365  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:09 am 
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I was quietly holding out hope Upamecano would come to us but I've just read that he's reported to have signed a contract extension. I'm very disappointed. :1cry:

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Post #514366  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:26 am 
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According to this article Brady went to the 'old lady' for 600k but he was worth 3 times that. Was the fee so low because he forced a move?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer ... 11806.html

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Post #514367  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:05 am 
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Classy. We are lucky to have him.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how- ... de1178b731

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Post #514368  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:11 am 
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long time gooner wrote:

He's clearly hugely respected by the players already. I read a really good interview with Martinez where amongst all sorts of things he talked about how Arteta once went in to detail about which foot Martinez should control a backpass with (ie: not always his strongest right foot) because it would give him more time. Obviously it sounds simple but if players have always done what comes naturally and no one has explained the benefits of these very small changes then they'll just always do it.

I recall a similar thing with Sterling when Arteta was a coach, he basically did 1 on 1 training with Sterling's movement and finishing - which coincided with Sterling moving from a 10 goal a season player to a 20 goal a season player.

It is still very early days but I like what I'm hearing.


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Post #514369  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:22 am 
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https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer ... -1.4318118

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Post #514370  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:37 am 
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No worries, I've already alerted Edu.


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Post #514371  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:27 am 
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I haven't been this excited about a young defender since we signed Upson. :42laughter:
https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/29/william- ... -13055932/ :42laughter:

In all seriousness, a lot of expectations on his young shoulders.

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Post #514372  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:32 am 
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Some serious rumblings that we're working on a loan deal for Coutinho where Barcelona will pay some of his wages. Have to say I'm all for it under those conditions, it seems like a good way to make us more competitive in the short term while making sure most of our budget is saved for signings that are a better fit for our long term plans. I know fans generally look down on loaning in players, but again we have to be pragmatic this summer.


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Post #514373  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:33 pm 
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Arsenal legend Cesc Fabregas
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... d-22447008

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Post #514374  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:46 pm 
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Hazuki wrote:
Some serious rumblings that we're working on a loan deal for Coutinho where Barcelona will pay some of his wages. Have to say I'm all for it under those conditions, it seems like a good way to make us more competitive in the short term while making sure most of our budget is saved for signings that are a better fit for our long term plans. I know fans generally look down on loaning in players, but again we have to be pragmatic this summer.


Sounds good to me, Coutinho has the quality we are lacking and he'd be a great signing on those terms imo.

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Post #514375  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Gunfire wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/der-spiegel-report-casts-doubt-over-man-city-s-cas-appeal-1.4318118

It is all broken. People will delve in to emails and contract and football law and FFP intricacies but the reality is if we all take a step back and look at what has been done. You have the company owned by the owner of a football club sponsoring that football club for huge amounts of money, more than their status and more than pretty much any of the huge marketing machine football clubs in the world.

If Arsenal broke off their deal with Emirates and instead put KSE on the front of the shirt and named the stadium The KSE stadium and were paid 5 or 6 times whatever Emirates had been paying you'd just look at it and say 'well clearly the owner is just pumping in massive amounts of money in to the club and FFP was set up to stop that happening'

It is all so pointless


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Post #514376  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:40 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:

That 'needs it more' is an understatement in and of itself. Won't bother elaborating here.

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Post #514377  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:15 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Gunfire wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/der-spiegel-report-casts-doubt-over-man-city-s-cas-appeal-1.4318118

It is all broken. People will delve in to emails and contract and football law and FFP intricacies but the reality is if we all take a step back and look at what has been done. You have the company owned by the owner of a football club sponsoring that football club for huge amounts of money, more than their status and more than pretty much any of the huge marketing machine football clubs in the world.

If Arsenal broke off their deal with Emirates and instead put KSE on the front of the shirt and named the stadium The KSE stadium and were paid 5 or 6 times whatever Emirates had been paying you'd just look at it and say 'well clearly the owner is just pumping in massive amounts of money in to the club and FFP was set up to stop that happening'

It is all so pointless

Yes. And unfortunately the big clubs can bring out expensive heavyweight lawyers and the ruling bodies haven’t a chance against that

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Post #514378  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:37 pm 
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Zed wrote:
AmericanGooner wrote:

That 'needs it more' is an understatement in and of itself. Won't bother elaborating here.


He has to be diplomatic. :icon_mrgreen:

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Post #514379  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:18 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Zed wrote:
That 'needs it more' is an understatement in and of itself. Won't bother elaborating here.


He has to be diplomatic. :icon_mrgreen:


Being impartial never hurts.

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Post #514380  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:29 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
American, I did accept in my earlier post that Dein can be seen as introducing Kroenke to Arsenal. I’m sure I did say that he presumably saw him as a way of Arsenal competing with Chelsea under Abramovich. As I also suggested this was a silly decision making me give that tongue in cheek observation that he must have stuck a pin in the Forbes’ Rich lList of multi-billionaires with him not doing adequate research on whose name the pin struck.

But, and as I also implied earlier it’s a very big but, it was not Dein who sold the club to Kroenke to give him majority control of the club. The major blame for that, I believe, should firmly be attached to Fiszman who apparently at the time basically dominated Bracewell-Smith who he also told (a word such as ‘convinced’ may be preferred by some) to sell, a decision she apparently now regrets.

So the main blame that Kroenke owns Arsenal in my view should be attached to Fiszman who basically drove the selling of the club to him, rather than Dein who introduced Stan to it. Think of the example I gave earlier. Do you blame a goal conceded on a defender who made an awful error to present an easy chance to an opposition forward, or do you blame a forward who initially lost possession up the other end of the pitch? The general principle looks fairly similar to me.

By blaming Dein, you seem to want to blame the forward up the other end of the pitch. I would suggest it’s more sensible to lay the primary blame on the defender. If in one sentence the choice for attaching blame is between Dein for introducing Kroenke to Arsenal, or Fiszman for driving the sale of it to him, for me the primary blame should definitely be attached to Fiszman.

What ever it was that influenced Dein in the first place to collaborate with Kroenke, aside from money, is questionable. Possibly they found they each had a similar business model that would work together. Fiszman may have felt that being in ill health, he was persuaded to sell to Kroenke, possibly to protect his family upon his death. Fiszman was the final nail in the coffin. As indicated Lady Nina no doubt regrets selling up to Kroenke. How much research was done prior to sort of 'inviting' Kroenke to Hoover up more Arsenal shares, may never be known, aside from Peter Hill-Woods comment "We don't want his sort" back in 2007.

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Post #514381  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:03 pm 
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Regarding Cesc. Split loyalties on the EL final in 2019.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.expres ... -Final/amp

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Post #514382  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:36 pm 
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Arsenal apparently demanding £8m for Balogun. Brentford bid £5m for him in January


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Post #514383  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Arsenal apparently demanding £8m for Balogun. Brentford bid £5m for him in January

Have you ever seen him Rich? I haven’t. Is he any good, or at least as good as he’s supposed to be? He’s 19 and not played a single minute for the first team, even in the League Cup when he’d have been 18. Nketiah, AMN, ESR and Nelson, who arguably fall short of top quality as some have suggested any or all should be sold, all made their debuts at 18. Saka, who is surely even better and nobody had suggested selling, made his debut at 17. Might that say something?

I admit I don’t know because I haven’t seen him. So I need advice about him.


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Post #514384  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:55 pm 
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No Guendouzi for FAC final. Özil is in Turkey.

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Post #514385  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:28 pm 
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Zed wrote:
Özil is in Turkey.

Sorting out a transfer (hopefully) or some sort of break or holiday?


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Post #514386  Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:08 pm 
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I would like to raise the stakes for the cup final. Winner gets to take Luiz for the next year.

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Post #514387  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:43 am 
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HAHAHAHA :15laughter: He said 'respect'...too funny. Must be trolling

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/footbal ... -Guardiola

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Post #514388  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:25 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Rich wrote:
Arsenal apparently demanding £8m for Balogun. Brentford bid £5m for him in January

Have you ever seen him Rich? I haven’t. Is he any good, or at least as good as he’s supposed to be? He’s 19 and not played a single minute for the first team, even in the League Cup when he’d have been 18. Nketiah, AMN, ESR and Nelson, who arguably fall short of top quality as some have suggested any or all should be sold, all made their debuts at 18. Saka, who is surely even better and nobody had suggested selling, made his debut at 17. Might that say something?

I admit I don’t know because I haven’t seen him. So I need advice about him.

Hi Bernard, no I’ve never watched a game of his, only YouTube type videos showing that he’s a good finisher and has scored lots of goals at youth level. But that would be no different to Nketiah or Afobe.

I would hope the really exclusive talent, like Saka, is fast tracked and moved to the first team quickly to show the trust the club has in the players ability. The rest we should be a) selling for good money and b) putting buy back clauses in if we’re slightly reluctantly selling - usually because the player can’t see a pathway to the first team


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Post #514389  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:37 am 
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Thanks for the info Rich.


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Post #514390  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:41 am 
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Hmmn

Woke up today with a feeling we might win this one for some reason. Once more into the breach

Good luck guys


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Post #514391  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Wahayyy.....Cup Final Day......feel the buzzz....


No I can’t either.


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Post #514392  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Zed wrote:
No Guendouzi for FAC final. Özil is in Turkey.

...and no Mustafi as well. We've lost.

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Post #514393  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:05 pm 
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I've prepared myself mentally at some point in the game to leave it and see what is happening elsewhere. Totally different feeling than the one I had when we played in them in the final in 2002.

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Post #514394  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:50 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Hmmn

Woke up today with a feeling we might win this one for some reason. Once more into the breach

Good luck guys

Good to hear, because I have a really bad feeling. There's just too much at stake and 2020 isn't the year where good things happen.


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Post #514395  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:24 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
Zed wrote:
Özil is in Turkey.

Sorting out a transfer (hopefully) or some sort of break or holiday?

Özil on a holiday break for Eid Mubarak possibly.

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Post #514396  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:02 pm 
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Interesting how the Mail broke a story today that Aubameyang supposedly was trying to get a transfer to Chelsea in January but his high wages put Chelsea off the deal.

What a scummy paper to time that nonsense on the morning of the cup final.


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Post #514397  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:25 pm 
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The Guendouzi and Coutinho rumours are picking up pace. The latest being £9m plus Guendouzi gets us Coutinho. Is Coutinho a £40m player? He probably is, and is a type of player we're crying out for.

The difficulty I have with it is the astronomical wages Coutinho must be on.

We'll be getting Mkhitryan's £200k per week of the books but we'll pressumably be putting some of that towards convincing Aubameyang to sign a new deal. It is those damn Özil wages which are killing us. Get them off the books and you've got the wages for 2 top class new signings


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Post #514398  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:32 pm 
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Martinez, Bellerin, Holding, Luiz, Tierney, AMN, Ceballos, Xhaka, Pep, Lacazette, Aubameyang


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Post #514399  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:35 pm 
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Looks like Chelsea are matching up our formation with a back 3.


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Post #514400  Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:08 pm 
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Same team that played Man City in the semi?

Let's hope we can achieve the same performance......


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