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Post #492361  Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:43 pm 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Bored wrote:
There are many reasons to want Wenger out but to refer to his 3 titles as simply 'something that happened along the way' is a bit silly. Those three titles are more than some teams have won in their entire history.
Prior to the stadium move he was a genius manager who won doubles on a budget with wonderful flair. Since then he has increasingly become a dysfunctional manager who has presided over Arsenal's slow and boring decline.


I'm not sure I agree that it's only recently he transformed into a increasingly dysfunctional manager, I think he's always been the same guy but the formula that worked to bring such huge success in the early years didn't later on because time had changed and he didn't change style.

The point I'm making isnt so much to deride his achievements which in the early years were significant and fantastic but to simply say that he's always been the same manager, same person with the same stubborn attitude and it just isn't working anymore.

Well, you misread what happened in the 2000s completely. We weren't carrying a poor manager who stumbled into the job when we were just about to have a good run because of previous good work and a number of fortuitous factors.

We were punching well above our weight for most of the decade, and this was because of Wenger.

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Post #492362  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:20 am 
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What strikes me as ingenuous with the press is when they try and induce drama and possibilities into things that are a pretty much a foregone conclusion.
City had the league won in the fall. If Man Utd or whomever gets a win when they drop points they state it as if it somehow puts City's title run in some sort of doubt.
The reason is obvious, they need the sales. It's just so ingenuous. Blatantly so. Are the bookies even still taking bets on City winning the title? If they are, I'd probably look into it myself, no matter what the odds, its easy money.


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Post #492363  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:29 am 
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kiwipete wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
3 up at home to Watford in a league season that's dead anyway seems like a no brainer.


I'm on your team Brom , similar when that kid Neketiah saved our arses against Norwich , I'd have put an arm around his shoulders and said "Get your good gear ready , you're in the first team next week " .... imagine what that would have done for his confidence .


If they are good enough, they will get the chance. Like Bellerin, Holding and Iwobi.


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Post #492364  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:56 am 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Goonie wrote:
Hmm... so just because they feel they deserve to be given a chance, Wenger should play them?

McGuane plays in a variety of positions, but particularly defensive midfield. We are very average in this position at first team level and presumably it was the likes of Coquelin and Elneny keeping him from progressing a bit quicker. I can't really see the wisdom in that.
Nelson has had some chances this season to play, and I don't like petulant reactions from the bench,
BUT
What's the point of a youth system if you let the best prospects walk? How can a player like McGuane come out and say that he never had as much as a conversation with Wenger in many years at the club? This is a player good enough to attract Barcelona btw, not some jumped up no mark. Nelson has the potential to be a top quality wide attacker, something we're crying out for - so get him on the pitch as often as you can, I say.
3 up at home to Watford in a league season that's dead anyway seems like a no brainer.


Wenger preferred to let Welbeck play, to rebuild his confidence. He needs Welbeck to be good again, so nobody can say he bought crap. All, or at least most, of his decisions are with his own end in mind. He is too self-centred. Unfortunately, we will not progress very much with him hanging around. I've worked in a few companies where the CEO started to make rash and desperate decisions to save their reputation. But, none turned out right. Wenger will not turn out right, even if he has another decade of Arsenal.

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Post #492365  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:58 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

It was a bloody huge 'contributor', do you really think a large percentage of those early signings were his first choices, or just maybe he had to take a bit of a punt because he was unable to secure his preferred targets?

He didn't have super bucks but I recall he waited 2 years to sign chamakh on a free who was dogshit and gave him a 60k a week contract and also turned down alonso from Liverpool because he deemed him not worth the extra 500k they wanted.


His "penny wise, pound foolish" philosophy has lost us many opportunities for better players.

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Post #492366  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:06 am 
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Rich wrote:
Catching up after being away for the weekend and not sure if it has been mentioned but was that Elneny's best performance in an Arsenal shirt?


Agree, he played very well. Just hope he keeps up his way of playing.

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Post #492367  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:08 am 
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kiwipete wrote:
Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:

The lack of investment was more an historical point and an important one, I'm sure we would be in a different place now if the Club had backed him more a decade ago. Agree of late he has amassed an inordinate amount of dross. My gripe was more with the nonsense about his earlier incarnation, remember AW was the one that converted Lauren into a very effective full back; promoted Cole to the first team; persuaded Campbell to make the leap of faith; turned Toure into a cb and capped it off with the fruit loop between the sticks. I would say that was quite a demonstration of how to build a defence.


I don't think it's a question of lack of the club backing

Don't forget Arsene was "walking on water " back then , if he'd asked for funds even when the stadium was being built I'm sure the club would have responded .

Spending big money wasn't / isn't his style ; he's an Op Shop rummager , loves a bargain [ his grey jersey is testamant to that ]

There is less kudos in buying several semi trailers of the most expensive talent Man City style ; than picking up a disillusioned Thierry Henry on the cheap , changing his position and turning him into the world's best .

Plus I've said it before and we can all be wise after the fact ...... but our reserves with Bendtner and Co were wiping out Premier League teams in the League Cup , this led him to believe they could be seemlessly integrated into the first team and not have to spend the Big Bucks .

Currently showing at Cinema Emirates ... "Turgid Football" ..... been on for some time ; to rubbish reviews but no sign of change .

This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall .


This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall - :53big-emoticons:

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Post #492368  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:53 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
kiwipete wrote:


This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall .


This looking down at the peasants from his ivory tower with that supercilious smirk ..." what do they know " attitude will be his downfall - :53big-emoticons:

Shivers .... two rounds of applause in the same day ...thanks TG , G7 much appreciated .


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Post #492369  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:30 am 
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http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/12/arsenal-b ... t-7382407/

I don't see any reason Allegri would leave the 'Old Lady' and come to us. Other than money. Or as a stepping stone to a top EPL job.


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Post #492370  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:27 am 
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Goonie wrote:
If they are good enough, they will get the chance. Like Bellerin, Holding and Iwobi.

If they are good enough, and they all looked it at first, is their deterioration since just a difficult but temporary period many young players experience? Or have they been Wengerised in a longer-term, meaning for as long as Mr Arse-hole - sorry, predictive text is playing up - Mr Arsene is around?

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Post #492371  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:34 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/12/arsenal-board-put-massimiliano-allegri-at-top-of-wish-list-to-replace-arsene-wenger-after-tottenham-defeat-7382407/

I don't see any reason Allegri would leave the 'Old Lady' and come to us. Other than money. Or as a stepping stone to a top EPL job.

He's been there, done it, and worn the t-shirt at Juventus. In fact he's worn two t-shirts at the same time. High achievers can sometimes look for new challenges. I'm not saying he will join but taking over from Wenger to make Arsenal successful again would be one hell of a challenge.

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Post #492372  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:02 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Goonie wrote:
If they are good enough, they will get the chance. Like Bellerin, Holding and Iwobi.

If they are good enough, and they all looked it at first, is their deterioration since just a difficult but temporary period many young players experience? Or have they been Wengerised in a longer-term, meaning for as long as Mr Arse-hole - sorry, predictive text is playing up - Mr Arsene is around?

Morning Bernard

I don't believe they have deteriorated. When a young player breaks in to the team we always see the positives and tend to overlook the weaknesses. As they play more games, those weaknesses become more obvious and young players almost always go through tough spells.

I think that happened Bellerin last season and he also struggled with the change in formation. At this point, I think he is a much better player than the kid who broke into the team. He has been given far more responsibility and is essentially defending the right flank on his own. With a more cohesive midfield, he would be very good.

I'm not sure Iwobi has ever played at the level you would expect from an Arsenal attacker. He is more assured in his passing these days and his first touch has always been good but his finishing is still a big problem. He might be better suited to a deeper role, although I don't know if he has the positional awareness to do that.

Holding is one player who really went through a bad spell, and when that happens to a young centre half, it is difficult to fix. I think he has done reasonably well in his recent performances. Strangely enough, our poor league position could help him as he might get a good run of PL games with little at stake.

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Post #492373  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:26 am 
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Wengers problem is he always throws the kids in the deep end and then overplays them till their confidence is destroyed. Some will survive like Cesc and Jack if they are strong characters but others will fail.

If you look at the way Ferguson managed young talent and how they were integrated into the first team it's pretty much spot on, never too much too soon.

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Post #492374  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:28 pm 
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dec wrote:
At this point, I think he is a much better player than the kid who broke into the team.

Afternoon dec. I'm surprised you wrote that about any of the three, including Bellerin. At last week's Q&A Lee Dixon, who I suggest would know far more about what it takes to be a full back than any of us, said words to the effect that Bellerin has gone downhill from the player he was when he first came into the side. From memory one thing he said was that Bellerin now does his 'head in'.

Dixon put it down to below par training, not him being crap. Lee even said he would be willing to train Arsenal's full backs on a part-time basis himself. In short, he thinks they need it. Poor training, at least on the face of it, may contribute to what I've been calling Wengerisation, as well as things like a lack of organisation.

However, I believe Bellerin has tons of potential and I'd hate to see Barcelona get him, if they do still want him. Also, despite what I see as his decline, I would still want him to be picked for important games. The most important games we have left this season are in my view those in the Europa League, albeit I think it would take a balls up of such huge proportions to get knocked out against Milan, Thursday's game doesn't strike me as that crucial. So if he's fit and available I want him to be picked for Europa League games after Thursday.

Regarding the others, has Holding been as good as he looked last season? I wasn't totally convinced by him last season but I think he's been worse this one. I also think Iowbi looks worse than he did when he first came into the team.

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Post #492375  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:52 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/12/arsenal-board-put-massimiliano-allegri-at-top-of-wish-list-to-replace-arsene-wenger-after-tottenham-defeat-7382407/

I don't see any reason Allegri would leave the 'Old Lady' and come to us. Other than money. Or as a stepping stone to a top EPL job.

So in fact you see two reasons.


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Post #492376  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:54 pm 
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"I would loov it, just loov it" if City win the title at Man Utd on April 7th.


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Post #492377  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Crazy fixtures. We finally get a good run together and after Thursdays game we played our next game on April 1st over two weeks later.


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Post #492378  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:52 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Draytonkid wrote:
Apparently young Nelson threw a strop, as he as waiting 10 minutes to come on, and he chucked his bib on the floor, don't blame him one bit, 3-0 game was won, and not for the first time Wenger didn't give the youngsters a chance!

Been reading Marcus McGuane's comments after his Barca debut about how he waited for his chance and it never came. And how Wenger never spoke to him in his many years at the club.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Nelson walk like McGuane and Chris Willock.


If mcGuane thinks getting into the barca midfield is easier than getting into Arsenal's he's an idiot. I can understand the move in terms of trying to get the best footballing education.

As for Nelson, his contract situation is a concern, but he'd be pretty foolish to leave given that Wenger is already giving him minutes and involving him in the match squad, and out of the big European clubs, Arsenal have given more opportunities to young players than anyone of the same size over the last decade. He should particularly consider the fact that as a winger, Arsenal are a club who have sold two wingers in 8 months, and now have no natural wingers in the squad. He is nailed on to get games if we progress in the Europa League as Wenger will prioritise and rotate more domestically.

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Post #492379  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Parkerknoll Gooner wrote:
Ash wrote:

Yeah and I’ll be furious when a new manager comes in and does everything wrong as he wins a double and goes a season unbeaten with a completely different defence. Get him out we’ll all say. Except we won’t because winning is the only thing people measure success by and it makes a host of other things better along with it.

You don’t have to airbrush out success to say it’s all gone to crap. Which it has.


Well said Ash. The bullhooks spouted about Wenger only having success on the back of inheriting a defence totally ignores the fact he put together the invincibles. It also forgets that Graham's unit was widely regarded as being well past their sell by date before Wenger arrived.

A major reason we are where we are is lack of investment on the playing side, which for any long term Arsenal fan should be nothing new.


Damn right. Wenger's stubbornness and unwillingness to devolve control is a MASSIVE issue and has been for a decade, but he would not have accumulated such power if his early achievements and mid-period keeping us competitive weren't such major successes.

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Post #492380  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:06 pm 
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dec wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:

I'm not sure I agree that it's only recently he transformed into a increasingly dysfunctional manager, I think he's always been the same guy but the formula that worked to bring such huge success in the early years didn't later on because time had changed and he didn't change style.

The point I'm making isnt so much to deride his achievements which in the early years were significant and fantastic but to simply say that he's always been the same manager, same person with the same stubborn attitude and it just isn't working anymore.

He absolutely changed style. Take a look at the footage from any season prior to 2006 and you will see a team that moved the ball on very quickly. It wasn't one-touch stuff either. It was control and pass, or what has been forgotten to a large extent is that we had plenty of attackers and midfielders who would actually take on and beat a man. Obviously, we had tremendously gifted players, most of them brought to the club by Wenger, but we also had players who were good but not very top level (Freddie, Parlour, Edu, Lauren, Toure, Wiltord) who contributed greatly and part of that was due to the style of play and the coaching from Wenger. I would say that every single one of them would struggle if you put them in the current team. Edu might be fine.

It changed considerably once Fabregas became the focal point of the team, even though that 2008 side was a very good one. Since then it we have become less and less direct, aping a Barcelona style that we just cannot replicate.

I also think Wenger has changed considerably as a person. Again, look at the footage of him on the sideline in 1998. The guy was brimming with confidence and completely self-assured in his approach. These days he just looks haunted as he frequently runs his fingers through his hair and stares at the ground.


Worthwhile observations. I too think Wenger has changed. He tried to tactically get ahead of the game, but has backed the wrong horse on that one. He didn't seem to realise that to imitate Barcelona but with elements of the old Arsenal style, you need really really really excellent footballers, and even Cesc, for his precocious genius, is not a Iniesta, Messi or Xavi. Subsequently in recent years he's tried to re-jig the team, but instead has given us a lack of any discernible identity or pattern to our play.

I also think he has lost some of his mojo as a person. There is a reason we have a retirement age. No matter how sharp the mind, how much one has learnt, there are certain qualities, such as physical energy and an ability to really connect with young people that do in general diminish over time, and it is much easier to see that from the outside.

Most of us have had a parent age and struggle to adjust to the fact that certain things that were almost second nature get slightly more difficult, long before any significant physical decline. There are certain things I can't do quite as well as I did when I joined SGF 18 years ago, for all the knowledge and wisdom and expertise I may have gained. In the same time, it is inevitable that Wenger has gained in some areas and lost in others.

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Post #492381  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:21 pm 
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lomekian wrote:
dec wrote:
He absolutely changed style. Take a look at the footage from any season prior to 2006 and you will see a team that moved the ball on very quickly. It wasn't one-touch stuff either. It was control and pass, or what has been forgotten to a large extent is that we had plenty of attackers and midfielders who would actually take on and beat a man. Obviously, we had tremendously gifted players, most of them brought to the club by Wenger, but we also had players who were good but not very top level (Freddie, Parlour, Edu, Lauren, Toure, Wiltord) who contributed greatly and part of that was due to the style of play and the coaching from Wenger. I would say that every single one of them would struggle if you put them in the current team. Edu might be fine.

It changed considerably once Fabregas became the focal point of the team, even though that 2008 side was a very good one. Since then it we have become less and less direct, aping a Barcelona style that we just cannot replicate.

I also think Wenger has changed considerably as a person. Again, look at the footage of him on the sideline in 1998. The guy was brimming with confidence and completely self-assured in his approach. These days he just looks haunted as he frequently runs his fingers through his hair and stares at the ground.


Worthwhile observations. I too think Wenger has changed. He tried to tactically get ahead of the game, but has backed the wrong horse on that one. He didn't seem to realise that to imitate Barcelona but with elements of the old Arsenal style, you need really really really excellent footballers, and even Cesc, for his precocious genius, is not a Iniesta, Messi or Xavi. Subsequently in recent years he's tried to re-jig the team, but instead has given us a lack of any discernible identity or pattern to our play.

I also think he has lost some of his mojo as a person. There is a reason we have a retirement age. No matter how sharp the mind, how much one has learnt, there are certain qualities, such as physical energy and an ability to really connect with young people that do in general diminish over time, and it is much easier to see that from the outside.

Most of us have had a parent age and struggle to adjust to the fact that certain things that were almost second nature get slightly more difficult, long before any significant physical decline. There are certain things I can't do quite as well as I did when I joined SGF 18 years ago, for all the knowledge and wisdom and expertise I may have gained. In the same time, it is inevitable that Wenger has gained in some areas and lost in others.


Wenger sold Vieira and tried to redesign the team around Cesc. It didn't quite work. Why not? Because Cesc wasn't quite good enough? Was Cesc really not as good as Xavi? Or because we had horrible luck with injuries in that period? We look back and try to find reasons, but I think a lot of what happen in sport is luck. More specifically, bad luck.

As for your second point: I completely agree. A lot of the old zest and zing had gone and I don't even miss it. If I had anything like Wenger's money I would retire immediately and fade away gracefully. Evidently Wenger is more a 'Rage, rage against the dying of the light', rather than a "bring the sundowners and turn down the sheets" sort of bloke.

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Post #492382  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
lomekian wrote:

Worthwhile observations. I too think Wenger has changed. He tried to tactically get ahead of the game, but has backed the wrong horse on that one. He didn't seem to realise that to imitate Barcelona but with elements of the old Arsenal style, you need really really really excellent footballers, and even Cesc, for his precocious genius, is not a Iniesta, Messi or Xavi. Subsequently in recent years he's tried to re-jig the team, but instead has given us a lack of any discernible identity or pattern to our play.

I also think he has lost some of his mojo as a person. There is a reason we have a retirement age. No matter how sharp the mind, how much one has learnt, there are certain qualities, such as physical energy and an ability to really connect with young people that do in general diminish over time, and it is much easier to see that from the outside.

Most of us have had a parent age and struggle to adjust to the fact that certain things that were almost second nature get slightly more difficult, long before any significant physical decline. There are certain things I can't do quite as well as I did when I joined SGF 18 years ago, for all the knowledge and wisdom and expertise I may have gained. In the same time, it is inevitable that Wenger has gained in some areas and lost in others.


Wenger sold Vieira and tried to redesign the team around Cesc. It didn't quite work. Why not? Because Cesc wasn't quite good enough? Was Cesc really not as good as Xavi? Or because we had horrible luck with injuries in that period? We look back and try to find reasons, but I think a lot of what happen in sport is luck. More specifically, bad luck.

As for your second point: I completely agree. A lot of the old zest and zing had gone and I don't even miss it. If I had anything like Wenger's money I would retire immediately and fade away gracefully. Evidently Wenger is more a 'Rage, rage against the dying of the light', rather than a "bring the sundowners and turn down the sheets" sort of bloke.

Luck certainly plays a big role and Ferguson had it in spades. We were very unlucky with injuries in 2008 and in Chelsea and Man Utd that season, we were competing against two of the strongest sides of the premier league era. As for your question "Was Cesc really not as good as Xavi?", in my view, it isn't even close. Xavi was the greatest creative midfielder of his generation. Better than Pirlo and Scholes. Fabregas was good but not at that level.

I am with you on the retire and take it easy approach. Wenger was a very good judge of when a player should call time on his career but he can't seem to apply the same to his own managerial abilities.

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Post #492383  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Bernard wrote:
dec wrote:
At this point, I think he is a much better player than the kid who broke into the team.

Afternoon dec. I'm surprised you wrote that about any of the three, including Bellerin. At last week's Q&A Lee Dixon, who I suggest would know far more about what it takes to be a full back than any of us, said words to the effect that Bellerin has gone downhill from the player he was when he first came into the side. From memory one thing he said was that Bellerin now does his 'head in'.

Dixon put it down to below par training, not him being crap. Lee even said he would be willing to train Arsenal's full backs on a part-time basis himself. In short, he thinks they need it. Poor training, at least on the face of it, may contribute to what I've been calling Wengerisation, as well as things like a lack of organisation.

However, I believe Bellerin has tons of potential and I'd hate to see Barcelona get him, if they do still want him. Also, despite what I see as his decline, I would still want him to be picked for important games. The most important games we have left this season are in my view those in the Europa League, albeit I think it would take a balls up of such huge proportions to get knocked out against Milan, Thursday's game doesn't strike me as that crucial. So if he's fit and available I want him to be picked for Europa League games after Thursday.

Regarding the others, has Holding been as good as he looked last season? I wasn't totally convinced by him last season but I think he's been worse this one. I also think Iowbi looks worse than he did when he first came into the team.

I've no doubt that Bellerin would benefit from better coaching. After all, he is very young. He is frequently all on his own defending that right flank though, so the set-up of the midfield is a factor. I really think he is a better player now. He was very exciting when he first broke into the team, but that was always going to be a honeymoon period. A bit like AMN now (the MOTD analysis on Sunday did a piece highlighting his qualities but never mentioned the penalty!!) I think he has matured into a good fullback, whose use of the ball is less flash but better. In the proper set-up he could be superb.

Holding has really struggled this season. It happens. There are signs that he is coming out the other side of it.

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Post #492384  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Decaf wrote:
If I had anything like Wenger's money I would retire immediately and fade away gracefully. Evidently Wenger is more a 'Rage, rage against the dying of the light', rather than a "bring the sundowners and turn down the sheets" sort of bloke.

yeah but that's because you might actually have something else going on in your life Decaf .

Work to feed the family , pay the bills , take the kids to soccer , rugby on Saturday etc etc , life is pretty much programmed by necessity .

Suddenly along comes retirement ; for some it's like a train running full tilt into a siding buffer .... faced with this awful void

...." What do I do now " they struggle .

I'm sure Arsene falls into that category .


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Post #492385  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Man U need 2 goals in 15 mins or they're out.
As I write Sevilla get their second. Looks all over now.
Mourinho's negative tactics haven't worked.


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Post #492386  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Sanchez out of Europe..................

Mkhi still in till the day after tomorrow at least.


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Post #492387  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:57 pm 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Man U need 2 goals in 15 mins or they're out.
As I write Sevilla get their second. Looks all over now.
Mourinho's negative tactics haven't worked.


Only 4 shots on target over the 2 games.


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Post #492388  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Spoke to some Man U fans and they are annoyed at how poor Sanchez has been. Kept saying he drops too deep, holds on to the ball too much and gives it away too regularly. Couldn’t help but give them a wry smile.

At least when he did that with us last season he also banged in 30 goals and won games on his own.

Man U bought Sanchez to try to solve a problem they didn’t have and it’s made them worse.

Mourinho has been punished for his negative tactics.


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Post #492389  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:15 pm 
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bubblechris wrote:
Sanchez out of Europe..................

Mkhi still in till the day after tomorrow at least.

More important Mourinho's days at Utd will start counting down. The board will soon be asking questions. He has spent a fairly large amount of money and his tactics ofdefence defence defence find him out. I am not sure it is what the fans want at Utd in relation to attacking football.

As for Alexis I let it go along time ago.

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Post #492390  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Really enjoying wishing the Mancs Yedder luck next year.

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Post #492391  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Gaz from Oz wrote:
bubblechris wrote:
Sanchez out of Europe..................

Mkhi still in till the day after tomorrow at least.

More important Mourinho's days at Utd will start counting down. The board will soon be asking questions. He has spent a fairly large amount of money and his tactics ofdefence defence defence find him out. I am not sure it is what the fans want at Utd in relation to attacking football.

As for Alexis I let it go along time ago.

His press conference will be enough for a large number of the fans to turn on Mourinho.

"I've sat in this chair twice before, with Porto - Man Utd out, with Real Madrid - Man Utd out, so this is nothing new for this football club."

He really doesn't give a *%^@.

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Post #492392  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 pm 
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Nzonzi very good again for Seville tonight, always impressed with him and would definitely take him in our team


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Post #492393  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:56 pm 
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dec wrote:
Gaz from Oz wrote:
More important Mourinho's days at Utd will start counting down. The board will soon be asking questions. He has spent a fairly large amount of money and his tactics ofdefence defence defence find him out. I am not sure it is what the fans want at Utd in relation to attacking football.

As for Alexis I let it go along time ago.

His press conference will be enough for a large number of the fans to turn on Mourinho.

"I've sat in this chair twice before, with Porto - Man Utd out, with Real Madrid - Man Utd out, so this is nothing new for this football club."

He really doesn't give a *%^@.

No he doesn't care, but the good thing is that if they keep him for another year he will start personal attacks on players and spend a lot more money hopefully without a trophy. Don't want them to win the FA Cup. Hope he brings total chaos to their club.

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Post #492394  Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Rich wrote:
The invincible season is rightly a beacon of a record that is going to be technically impossible to beat but very very difficult to match. However I think there are two more records that I think will stand the test of time just as well.
Going the entire season unbeaten away from home TWICE in 02 and 04 was amazing. Also scoring in every prem game of the season is a staggering record


Quite agree. There is a reason why no one did any of things for several decades.

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Post #492395  Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:07 am 
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Decaf wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
He didn't have super bucks but I recall he waited 2 years to sign chamakh on a free who was dogshit and gave him a 60k a week contract and also turned down alonso from Liverpool because he deemed him not worth the extra 500k they wanted.

You single out Chamakh but what about Abu Diaby, Adebayor, Rosicki, van Persie, Hleb, Flamini, Eduardo, Gallas, (off the top of my head)? Wenger made some very shrewd purchases in the seasons after 2004. The fact the we were so financially tight meant that we tended to persist with players who were not quite fitting and not to replace players with long term injuries (and were we so unlucky with injuries).

And we suffered because Wenger's reputation for unearthing talent led to lots of our players being tapped up.

So we did remarkably well in the transfer market but did suffer from having one hand tied behind our back.

Things only really went pear-shaped in about 2010.


Also not only is the Alonso story about £500k long discredited as nonsense, but lest we forget Chamakh was never meant to be the main man, and lest we forget had the best start to his arsenal career of any striker since Ian Wright. He was never going to be brilliant, but his career was fecked by that horrible blackmailing business that totally destroyed his confidence.

People love to claim that without the old back 5 Wenger was nothing, but its revisionist nonsense. How many were in the team when we went unbeaten? How many were around when we got the Champion's League final, setting a new defensive record in the process (only to be shafted due to an offside equaliser and a crap back up keeper)? How many were around in 07-08 where we were the best team in the country by a mile until we literally ran out of players due to an appalling injury list (largely the result of horrible cynical tackles)?

I don't know TG constantly tries to destroy Wenger's prior achievements and diminish the man.

He was stupendously great for a few years. Then he was really quite good all things considered. Then he was Ok. Now he's a bit crap.

I don't see why the first sentence has to be viewed as mutually exclusive to the last. Nothing is constant. To live is to change. To suggest otherwise denies the point of life itself. Even Bernard's stance on Ljungberg has softened!

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Post #492396  Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:12 am 
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gooner7 wrote:
bromley gooner wrote:
McGuane plays in a variety of positions, but particularly defensive midfield. We are very average in this position at first team level and presumably it was the likes of Coquelin and Elneny keeping him from progressing a bit quicker. I can't really see the wisdom in that.
Nelson has had some chances this season to play, and I don't like petulant reactions from the bench,
BUT
What's the point of a youth system if you let the best prospects walk? How can a player like McGuane come out and say that he never had as much as a conversation with Wenger in many years at the club? This is a player good enough to attract Barcelona btw, not some jumped up no mark. Nelson has the potential to be a top quality wide attacker, something we're crying out for - so get him on the pitch as often as you can, I say.
3 up at home to Watford in a league season that's dead anyway seems like a no brainer.


Wenger preferred to let Welbeck play, to rebuild his confidence. He needs Welbeck to be good again, so nobody can say he bought crap. All, or at least most, of his decisions are with his own end in mind. He is too self-centred. Unfortunately, we will not progress very much with him hanging around. I've worked in a few companies where the CEO started to make rash and desperate decisions to save their reputation. But, none turned out right. Wenger will not turn out right, even if he has another decade of Arsenal.


Or maybe playing Welbeck with his trophy winning experience, excellent international goal ratio, fantastic work rate and positional flexibility, when he desperately needs game time and confidence for our Europa League run was a greater priority than giving an 18 year old who will only be turned to realistically in an injury crisis a few minutes.

You can hate Wenger all you like, but giving Welbeck minutes was the obvious choice for multiple reasons.

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Post #492397  Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:20 am 
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dec wrote:
Bernard wrote:
If they are good enough, and they all looked it at first, is their deterioration since just a difficult but temporary period many young players experience? Or have they been Wengerised in a longer-term, meaning for as long as Mr Arse-hole - sorry, predictive text is playing up - Mr Arsene is around?

Morning Bernard

I don't believe they have deteriorated. When a young player breaks in to the team we always see the positives and tend to overlook the weaknesses. As they play more games, those weaknesses become more obvious and young players almost always go through tough spells.

I think that happened Bellerin last season and he also struggled with the change in formation. At this point, I think he is a much better player than the kid who broke into the team. He has been given far more responsibility and is essentially defending the right flank on his own. With a more cohesive midfield, he would be very good.

I'm not sure Iwobi has ever played at the level you would expect from an Arsenal attacker. He is more assured in his passing these days and his first touch has always been good but his finishing is still a big problem. He might be better suited to a deeper role, although I don't know if he has the positional awareness to do that.

Holding is one player who really went through a bad spell, and when that happens to a young centre half, it is difficult to fix. I think he has done reasonably well in his recent performances. Strangely enough, our poor league position could help him as he might get a good run of PL games with little at stake.


Bellerin is still an excellent player who has been affected by a few injuries, but mostly a total lack of support. When he and Walcott played together last season, they were an excellent partnership til Theo got his injury. Sure his form fluctuates, and the team's struggles have affected him, but when people say he's no good, they are clearly too stupid to be encouraged to offer further opinion.

Iwobi has a lot of gifts, but a lot of flaws. His position is still a question mark. He was never super hyped as a kid. He shouldn't play as much as he is in a club of our size, but with him, so much is confidence. His shooting technique is poor though.

Holding is a player who made a MASSIVE step up - and like most young centre backs, really needs a senior partner on their game alongside him at times. Parachuting a kid into our defense at the mo is almost cruel, given the total lack of cover they get.

Bellerin would be snapped up a European super club the minute we put him up for sale. Iwobi is a work in progress who is worthy of a squad place, but further down the order, and really needs to work out a best position. Holding is fine as a 4th choice centre-half with the potential to improve, which is what he should be, and probably will be next season.

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Post #492398  Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:28 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Wengers problem is he always throws the kids in the deep end and then overplays them till their confidence is destroyed. Some will survive like Cesc and Jack if they are strong characters but others will fail.

If you look at the way Ferguson managed young talent and how they were integrated into the first team it's pretty much spot on, never too much too soon.


You do realise that most of Ferguson's youth team players played a LOT more than those you claim have been overplayed.

G Nev - 1st season 27 games in all comps aged 19. 2nd season = Utd's undisputed 1st choice RB (39 games aged 20).
Beckham - 10 games (mostly in the cup as 19 year old) in season 1. Season 2 - 40 games
Giggs - 2 games in 90/91 as a 17 year old. 51 games the following season.
Scholes first two seasons - 25 games, 31 games
P Nev - 34 games then 24
N Butt - 35 games then 41 games.

The truth is literally the polar opposite of what you wrote.

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Post #492399  Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:32 am 
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Decaf wrote:
lomekian wrote:

Worthwhile observations. I too think Wenger has changed. He tried to tactically get ahead of the game, but has backed the wrong horse on that one. He didn't seem to realise that to imitate Barcelona but with elements of the old Arsenal style, you need really really really excellent footballers, and even Cesc, for his precocious genius, is not a Iniesta, Messi or Xavi. Subsequently in recent years he's tried to re-jig the team, but instead has given us a lack of any discernible identity or pattern to our play.

I also think he has lost some of his mojo as a person. There is a reason we have a retirement age. No matter how sharp the mind, how much one has learnt, there are certain qualities, such as physical energy and an ability to really connect with young people that do in general diminish over time, and it is much easier to see that from the outside.

Most of us have had a parent age and struggle to adjust to the fact that certain things that were almost second nature get slightly more difficult, long before any significant physical decline. There are certain things I can't do quite as well as I did when I joined SGF 18 years ago, for all the knowledge and wisdom and expertise I may have gained. In the same time, it is inevitable that Wenger has gained in some areas and lost in others.


Wenger sold Vieira and tried to redesign the team around Cesc. It didn't quite work. Why not? Because Cesc wasn't quite good enough? Was Cesc really not as good as Xavi? Or because we had horrible luck with injuries in that period? We look back and try to find reasons, but I think a lot of what happen in sport is luck. More specifically, bad luck.

As for your second point: I completely agree. A lot of the old zest and zing had gone and I don't even miss it. If I had anything like Wenger's money I would retire immediately and fade away gracefully. Evidently Wenger is more a 'Rage, rage against the dying of the light', rather than a "bring the sundowners and turn down the sheets" sort of bloke.


Injuries and lack of funds were a factor, but no....Cesc wasn't as good as Xavi, who is the best passer of through balls I have seen in my life, bar perhaps Dennis. Also, lets face it, Barca were great, but most of their domination is down to Messi. Playing that kind of football is a lot easier with a generational genius. The guy isn't a striker, but by the age of 30 he has 600 career goals and about half as many assists. To think, his family were in discussion with Wenger when we got Cesc....

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Post #492400  Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:34 am 
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bromley gooner wrote:
Man U need 2 goals in 15 mins or they're out.
As I write Sevilla get their second. Looks all over now.
Mourinho's negative tactics haven't worked.


How much has Mourinho spent there? £500m ish in 2 years, on an already expensively assembled squad? Such a terrible shame his tactics no longer work at the top level either...

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