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Post #476841  Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Niall wrote:
Out of interest, if you want all of these things, why would you sacrifice all of them for a no-nonsense attitude on Europe?

Arsenal should sacrifice everything for a no nonsense attitude to Europe!

Indeed. Maybe when all the foreigners are sent home we'll be in there....

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Post #476842  Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:37 pm 
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Niall wrote:
Anyone earning over 70k should contribute more imo and I'm going to guess TG, though I might be wrong, you would be unaffected. As I would. However the policy should be combined with a long overdue clamp down on tax avoidance.

I'd be affected and as a traditional labour voter find it a little offensive this guys comments as I've come from a working class background and worked myself up. It's not the money just this type of behaviour doesn't breed success

Why would I be moaning otherwise

Although you know I love a moan mate by now :laughing7:

Would you consider a single income family who earn say 70k a year "rich" ? Well that's what's being said here.

I Find this class politics a little boring from Corbyn and co as I contribute a lot and have never ever resented paying more tax. My family grew up in social housing.

How will they win the middle ground ? Answer is they won't, they will get thrashed and rightly so


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Post #476843  Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:43 pm 
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Niall wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Quick update ....anyone who makes more than 70k a year is a wanker and deserves to be shot and removed from the earth immediately


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 90156.html

Come on, less fake news. The Gleiber has higher standards surely.

That is the ridiculous comment not the link.


Fake news ! I was listening to radio 5 yesterday and he came on and said it.

What tactic is that to gain the middle vote. Great thinking lads

Corbyn and McDonnells messaging are akin to early 1900 communism and would never win an election


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Post #476844  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:01 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Quick update ....anyone who makes more than 70k a year is a wanker and deserves to be shot and removed from the earth immediately


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 90156.html
Not really. If they are dead they won't be paying taxes, which is the point of it.


Ok it was a jokey sarcastic comment but the real message Corbyn and his looney mates would love to push out.

Jezza and co aren't even bothered about it anyway it's just messaging to satisfy his cronies in the Labour Party and push out the moderates which is his only concern not an election. It's an irrelevance, they won't win but still resent success.


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Post #476845  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:47 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Northbank Memories wrote:

That's me knackered then.
Worth considering voting Tory? That should solve the problem.


I left school with no qualifications. I worked hard learning my job and am quite good at it. Did what i needed to and did reasonably well and paying £20k tax and insurance. Maybe i should pay more.

Plus the fact i have been in work for 45 years, save three months at my choice when i was 18. Always paid taxes and insurance, which in turn means I get a reasonable state pension when I retire as well as my private pension.

Never sat on my arse at home and expected anyone else to support me.


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Post #476846  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:51 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Ok it was a jokey sarcastic comment but the real message Corbyn and his looney mates would love to push out. Jezza and co aren't even bothered about it anyway it's just messaging to satisfy his cronies in the Labour Party and push out the moderates which is his only concern not an election. It's an irrelevance, they won't win but still resent success.
There is a serious point to be made if we want decent public services in our country. Somebody has to pay for them. Truth is raiding the super-rich makes for good headlines but doesn't do the job, and with the average annual income in the UK about £27k, nor does hitting the lower earners. The middle to upper middle ground is where the taxman has to go for more. The question is then whether you believe somebody earning 70k+ is 'rich'. Might seem that way to those folks on 27k and less?

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Post #476847  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:56 am 
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If Wenger leaves, why would the Juve manager come to us? In truth, isn't it a step down? I'm not seeing the improvement other than pay.


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Post #476848  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:03 am 
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Northbank Memories wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Worth considering voting Tory? That should solve the problem.


I left school with no qualifications. I worked hard learning my job and am quite good at it. Did what i needed to and did reasonably well and paying £20k tax and insurance. Maybe i should pay more.

Plus the fact i have been in work for 45 years, save three months at my choice when i was 18. Always paid taxes and insurance, which in turn means I get a reasonable state pension when I retire as well as my private pension.

Never sat on my arse at home and expected anyone else to support me.
Love her or loath her what Thatcher did change was the public's attitude towards income tax. I come from a similar time as you, and while we never enjoyed paying income tax, before the 80s it was a given. Along with social housing (remember when we called it council housing?) that mould was broken and the country has been living with the consequences ever since. The financial crisis of 2008 and the undeniable public service and benefit cuts that have followed now leave us needing a different approach to taxation. Or we could just let things crumble.

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Post #476849  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:08 am 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
If Wenger leaves, why would the Juve manager come to us? In truth, isn't it a step down? I'm not seeing the improvement other than pay.
Yes it would be a step down in prestige. Juventus' status in world football is far and away superior to Arsenal's, but the Premier League is a financial gravy train everybody wants to get on.

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Post #476850  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:22 am 
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What dreadful news about Ugo Ehiogu. Only 44. So very sad.

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Post #476851  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:44 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
TOP GUN wrote:
Ok it was a jokey sarcastic comment but the real message Corbyn and his looney mates would love to push out. Jezza and co aren't even bothered about it anyway it's just messaging to satisfy his cronies in the Labour Party and push out the moderates which is his only concern not an election. It's an irrelevance, they won't win but still resent success.
There is a serious point to be made if we want decent public services in our country. Somebody has to pay for them. Truth is raiding the super-rich makes for good headlines but doesn't do the job, and with the average annual income in the UK about £27k, nor does hitting the lower earners. The middle to upper middle ground is where the taxman has to go for more. The question is then whether you believe somebody earning 70k+ is 'rich'. Might seem that way to those folks on 27k and less?


Hang on a minute if your earning over 70k your already paying double the tax of someone on 27k. Isn't that enough?

Basic rate £11,501 to £45,000 20%

Higher rate £45,001 to £150,000 40%


Also this doesn't include all the stealth tax stuff like the new speeding fines where they won't tell you what your fine is until you send them your P60 or something :laughing7:

Don't get me wrong I have some sympathy here but the sneering from labour on this doesn't help them win the political middle ground.


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Post #476852  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:26 am 
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TOP GUN wrote:
Hang on a minute if your earning over 70k your already paying double the tax of someone on 27k. Isn't that enough?...Don't get me wrong I have some sympathy here but the sneering from labour on this doesn't help them win the political middle ground.
Probably not if we want to keep public services at the sort of level needed for a harmonious and successful society. In my first job earning a fortune of £650 per annum, the standard rate of income tax was 41%! That went on for years until the mould was broken. Admittedly in those pre-EEC days the money went further as there was no such thing as the regressive VAT which governments prefer to levy. I don't think Labour are sneering over this issue, but offering an alternative way of raising much-needed funds. The awful Lib Dems have often talked about income tax rises too. It is at the heart of the UK's future as a fair and decent society, but it most likely won't work electorally for either party because people now have an aversion to paying income tax, which my generation accepted, albeit with moans.

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Post #476853  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:44 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
which my generation accepted, albeit with moans.




I pay the top rate of tax and would very happily see it increased to at least 50% but preferably higher still. Current level is ridiculous and anybody who moans about paying a bit more is a selfish greedy *%^@ end of story.

Given housing conditions though, 70K in London as a family income won't get you that far and I would keep my tax increases for those who can really afford to pay it.

The EEC though, Hoy, honestly! Do you still go on holiday to the continent?

- They have these pastries, Ada, shaped like crabs and they're called croissants which is French for crab. And they don't have sheets and blankets like us, no, they have these sort of quilts and they call them duvets, it took me a bit of time to get used to them but they're ever so comfortable.

- Ooh I'm not sure, Mr Hoy, not with my lumbago, and stow it with that nonsense about the Liberal Party - why wasn't it that nice Mr Lloyd George who gave us our pensions?


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Post #476854  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:45 am 
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Northbank Memories wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Worth considering voting Tory? That should solve the problem.


I left school with no qualifications. I worked hard learning my job and am quite good at it. Did what i needed to and did reasonably well and paying £20k tax and insurance. Maybe i should pay more.

Plus the fact i have been in work for 45 years, save three months at my choice when i was 18. Always paid taxes and insurance, which in turn means I get a reasonable state pension when I retire as well as my private pension.

Never sat on my arse at home and expected anyone else to support me.

You had opportunities that don't exist today. Free education, cheap housing, good pension schemes, retirement at 65.

Our kids aren't going to have it so good w/o radical change.

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Post #476855  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:49 am 
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Northbank Memories wrote:
I worked hard learning my job and am quite good at it.


All those different colours for the Nespresso capsules must have been a new challenge?


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Post #476856  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:49 am 
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Daz wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
which my generation accepted, albeit with moans.

70K in London as a family income won't get you that far and I would keep my tax increases for those who can really afford to pay it.

I forgot about London wages being so much bigger.
Median wage in NI and north of England is 22K or thereabouts. Someone on 70K is rich, imo, but maybe not so in London. I'd be doubling my own salary if I shifted over there.

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Post #476857  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:07 am 
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Niall wrote:
Daz wrote:
70K in London as a family income won't get you that far and I would keep my tax increases for those who can really afford to pay it.

I forgot about London wages being so much bigger.
Median wage in NI and north of England is 22K or thereabouts. Someone on 70K is rich, imo, but maybe not so in London. I'd be doubling my own salary if I shifted over there.


70k would still be a very good salary in London but it wouldn't get you on the housing ladder if it was your total family income and childcare is also really difficult. You can pay £1600 a month for a one-bedroom flat.

Politically, I wouldn't have set that even as a ballpark figure as it immediately gives the Tories ammunition to say that Labour is anti-aspirational.

The fundamental message should have been about the top tax bracket which is too low at 40% and tax avoidance by big corporations.


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Post #476858  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:28 am 
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I can go with the flow
But don't say it doesn't matter anymore
I can go with the flow
Do you believe it in your head?

Oh yes, profound.

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Post #476859  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:00 am 
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Daz wrote:
Northbank Memories wrote:
I worked hard learning my job and am quite good at it.


All those different colours for the Nespresso capsules must have been a new challenge?


LOL's. It was Daz


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Post #476860  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:23 am 
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Daz wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
which my generation accepted, albeit with moans.




I pay the top rate of tax and would very happily see it increased to at least 50% but preferably higher still. Current level is ridiculous and anybody who moans about paying a bit more is a selfish greedy *%^@ end of story.

Given housing conditions though, 70K in London as a family income won't get you that far and I would keep my tax increases for those who can really afford to pay it.

The EEC though, Hoy, honestly! Do you still go on holiday to the continent?

- They have these pastries, Ada, shaped like crabs and they're called croissants which is French for crab. And they don't have sheets and blankets like us, no, they have these sort of quilts and they call them duvets, it took me a bit of time to get used to them but they're ever so comfortable.

- Ooh I'm not sure, Mr Hoy, not with my lumbago, and stow it with that nonsense about the Liberal Party - why wasn't it that nice Mr Lloyd George who gave us our pensions?
Love Europe, me. Especially Italy, home of The Old Lady and so much more besides. Fact is VAT came with EEC membership - we didn't have it before. The current 20% is a scandal as it hits everybody regardless of income. Remember when it was about 7%? That was reasonable.

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Post #476861  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:29 am 
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Niall wrote:
Daz wrote:
70K in London as a family income won't get you that far and I would keep my tax increases for those who can really afford to pay it.

I forgot about London wages being so much bigger.
Median wage in NI and north of England is 22K or thereabouts. Someone on 70K is rich, imo, but maybe not so in London. I'd be doubling my own salary if I shifted over there.
An individual earning 70k is far above the norm in London and the vast majority of households don't have that much coming in.

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Post #476862  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:49 am 
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old man of hoy wrote:
The current 20% is a scandal as it hits everybody regardless of income. Remember when it was about 7%? That was reasonable.


Yes because income tax which is a very good thing has become a taboo tax because of the same unelected sin patria media moguls who have stirred up racism, attacked human rights, and referred to those who dissent or show opposition as "saboteurs" and "traitors" and are just generally stinking the country out.

All the fault of those cynical and anti-democratic Liberals.


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Post #476863  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:09 pm 
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London is similar to NYC. Both bleeding expensive. 70 GBP is about 90k USD. I recall telling a friend no way I'd live in NYC for less than 100k and I'm single with no kids (that I claim :icon_mrgreen: ). For a wife and a child? Its middle..middle class. I wouldn't call it upper class when all is said and done. Maybe near upper middle.

Were I making that in London I'd find a low income but gentrifying area...south London, southeast, etc.


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Post #476864  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:49 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
Were I making that in London I'd find a low income but gentrifying area...south London, southeast, etc.


Hearing very good things about Bromley.


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Post #476865  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:01 pm 
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old man of hoy wrote:
Fact is VAT came with EEC membership - we didn't have it before. The current 20% is a scandal as it hits everybody regardless of income. Remember when it was about 7%? That was reasonable.


Actually it did and was called purchase tax.


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Post #476866  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Daz wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
The current 20% is a scandal as it hits everybody regardless of income. Remember when it was about 7%? That was reasonable.


Yes because income tax which is a very good thing has become a taboo tax because of the same unelected sin patria media moguls who have stirred up racism, attacked human rights, and referred to those who dissent or show opposition as "saboteurs" and "traitors" and are just generally stinking the country out.

All the fault of those cynical and anti-democratic Liberals.

In Ireland the taboo was circumvented by coming up with a brand new tax called Universal Social Charge which was brought in as a temporary measure when the financial crisis hit. It was essentially an additional income tax and while the crisis has gone the USC remains. The higher tax rate of 40% kicks in at c€34k here. If you earn €50k + your effective marginal tax rate is c50%.

There is certainly an argument that middle-income earners are paying more than their fair share here. We couldn't even successfully implement a charge on domestic water use.

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Post #476867  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:10 pm 
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dec wrote:
We couldn't even successfully implement a charge on domestic water use.

Yes, that was a great victory for the common man. People should not have to pay for water.

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Post #476868  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Niall wrote:
dec wrote:
We couldn't even successfully implement a charge on domestic water use.

Yes, that was a great victory for the common man. People should not have to pay for water.

Yes. Because clean drinking water finds its way into your kitchen tap via the magic of the kind water fairies. As for the stuff that leaves your toilet, well that's a whole different magic.

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Post #476869  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:03 pm 
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dec wrote:
Niall wrote:
Yes, that was a great victory for the common man. People should not have to pay for water.

Yes. Because clean drinking water finds its way into your kitchen tap via the magic of the kind water fairies. As for the stuff that leaves your toilet, well that's a whole different magic.

An absolute clusterfuck of a saga that we seem to excel at. I wouldn't have been averse to water charges for the reasons you mention Dec but it had to be done right. What they should have done was agree a set fee for x amount of years and used this money to install meters and then fix the network to a reasonable and acceptable standard. The thought of paying thousands repairing leaky pipes frightened the bejaysus out of many people, and I don't mean the rabble that were the at the forefront of the 'protests'. Once the network was fit for purpose they then could have introduced the charges.
Far from a great win for the common man Niall this was a great victory for the ' great unwashed ' ( see what I did there ) who contribute *%^@ all as they don't want to work. Where were all these protesters when the property tax was brought in? I'll tell you where, sitting at home skulling cheap lager and moaning about the ' foreigns' in the homes we, the workers, pay for through the ridiculously high income tax rates here. Our anti water charge mob were the equivalent to the' brexit brigade ' in the U.K.


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Post #476870  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:13 pm 
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dec wrote:
Niall wrote:
Yes, that was a great victory for the common man. People should not have to pay for water.

Yes. Because clean drinking water finds its way into your kitchen tap via the magic of the kind water fairies. As for the stuff that leaves your toilet, well that's a whole different magic.

Heaven forbid that some of the not insubstantial taxes already in place, household charges, property taxes, universal social charges... you name it, be invested in the maintenance of the water supply. Some sense of priority must prevail, such as bailing out the bwankers and paying massive pensions to corrupt, venal jailbirds like Ray Burke.


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Post #476871  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:15 pm 
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John wrote:
dec wrote:
Yes. Because clean drinking water finds its way into your kitchen tap via the magic of the kind water fairies. As for the stuff that leaves your toilet, well that's a whole different magic.

An absolute clusterfuck of a saga that we seem to excel at. I wouldn't have been averse to water charges for the reasons you mention Dec but it had to be done right. What they should have done was agree a set fee for x amount of years and used this money to install meters and then fix the network to a reasonable and acceptable standard. The thought of paying thousands repairing leaky pipes frightened the bejaysus out of many people, and I don't mean the rabble that were the at the forefront of the 'protests'. Once the network was fit for purpose they then could have introduced the charges.
Far from a great win for the common man Niall this was a great victory for the ' great unwashed ' ( see what I did there ) who contribute *%^@ all as they don't want to work. Where were all these protesters when the property tax was brought in? I'll tell you where, sitting at home skulling cheap lager and moaning about the ' foreigns' in the homes we, the workers, pay for through the ridiculously high income tax rates here. Our anti water charge mob were the equivalent to the' brexit brigade ' in the U.K.

What a load of bollox.


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thofman wrote:
John wrote:
An absolute clusterfuck of a saga that we seem to excel at. I wouldn't have been averse to water charges for the reasons you mention Dec but it had to be done right. What they should have done was agree a set fee for x amount of years and used this money to install meters and then fix the network to a reasonable and acceptable standard. The thought of paying thousands repairing leaky pipes frightened the bejaysus out of many people, and I don't mean the rabble that were the at the forefront of the 'protests'. Once the network was fit for purpose they then could have introduced the charges.
Far from a great win for the common man Niall this was a great victory for the ' great unwashed ' ( see what I did there ) who contribute *%^@ all as they don't want to work. Where were all these protesters when the property tax was brought in? I'll tell you where, sitting at home skulling cheap lager and moaning about the ' foreigns' in the homes we, the workers, pay for through the ridiculously high income tax rates here. Our anti water charge mob were the equivalent to the' brexit brigade ' in the U.K.

What a load of bollox.

Cheers. Remember that next time we slip into recession and the paye sector takes it up the arse again.


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Post #476873  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:41 pm 
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John wrote:
thofman wrote:
What a load of bollox.

Cheers. Remember that next time we slip into recession and the paye sector takes it up the arse again.

Give it a rest. Parents, pensioners, workers, unemployed, students were all part of the protests. The kind of ignorant catch-all categorisations contained in your rant are far more redolent of a 'brexit brigade' or Alf Garnett type prejudiced mindset.


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Post #476874  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:58 pm 
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thofman wrote:
John wrote:
Cheers. Remember that next time we slip into recession and the paye sector takes it up the arse again.

Give it a rest. Parents, pensioners, workers, unemployed, students were all part of the protests. The kind of ignorant catch-all categorisations contained in your rant are far more redolent of a 'brexit brigade' or Alf Garnett type prejudiced mindset.

To borrow and edit something I read about those who voted brexit... not everyone who was anti water charges was a lazy work shy beer swilling ignorant d******* but every work shy beer swilling ignorant d******* was anti water charges.


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Post #476875  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Your old hairy arse John. Bottom line, water should be free or part of your rates as they are here. No doubt you guys would pay for the air ye breath if some corporate type decides it's a good revenue raiser in the future.

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Post #476876  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:19 pm 
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All the large (and medium sized) American cities are being gentrified. The poor, working poor and even some of the lower middle classes are driven out by the descendants of the same people who left for the suburbs vowing never to return and to let it all go to hell. Our poor and destitute are now ending up in very poor suburbs to make room for these folks.

Remember the marches over that black kid being killed by a white cop in Ferguson, Missouri? Mike Brown. Ferguson's residents, were originally from adjacent St. Louis and were economically forced out there.

Is London and other British cities going through the same? I can't imagine how the working poor and the poor as well as pensioners survive in London proper.


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Post #476877  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:20 pm 
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bubblechris wrote:
old man of hoy wrote:
Fact is VAT came with EEC membership - we didn't have it before. The current 20% is a scandal as it hits everybody regardless of income. Remember when it was about 7%? That was reasonable.


Actually it did and was called purchase tax.
I think the old PT had a rather limited reach compared to VAT.

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Post #476878  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:30 pm 
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AmericanGooner wrote:
All the large (and medium sized) American cities are being gentrified. The poor, working poor and even some of the lower middle classes are driven out by the descendants of the same people who left for the suburbs vowing never to return and to let it all go to hell. Our poor and destitute are now ending up in very poor suburbs to make room for these folks.

Remember the marches over that black kid being killed by a white cop in Ferguson, Missouri? Mike Brown. Ferguson's residents, were originally from adjacent St. Louis and were economically forced out there.

Is London and other British cities going through the same? I can't imagine how the working poor and the poor as well as pensioners survive in London proper.
London is a cheek by jowel city. Massive wealth often quite close to poverty. To live a decent life is a big struggle in London for many people, and the biggest problem is availability of an affordable home. Young people are especially disadvantaged, for which all governments since Thatcher, should be ashamed.

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Post #476879  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Location: Waltham Abbey, Essex

Shame about Ibrahimovic...........................


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Post #476880  Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Niall wrote:
Your old hairy arse John. Bottom line, water should be free or part of your rates as they are here. No doubt you guys would pay for the air ye breath if some corporate type decides it's a good revenue raiser in the future.

We don't pay rates. The paye sector pay for everything and as soon as we fall into recession the squeeze is put on us straight away. The charges weren't introduced because they made a right bollox of them. Rushed in with no discussion allowing the the more populist political parties, I'm sure you're familiar with at least one of them, to come to the aid of the poor and the pensioners thofman alluded to. Regardless of whether or not they are a lazy shower of *%^@ers or living comfortably on healthy pensions. I'm against blanket freebies for any group in society, I believe if you can afford it you should pay your way regardless of age and grant state aid to those who really need it.


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